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    Default Chromebook Discussion

    For some reason Chromebooks are a highly debating and argued about item. You see articles about them growing in market share and in businesses/schools, example 1 and example 2. A local school system here just ordered 250 Toshiba Chromebooks. I too was one in the beginning that saw no use for Chromebooks and said I would never have one, I am getting very very interested. I have been looking through the Chrome extensions and if you need it...there's an extension for that. The Chrome web store has so many more useful things in it than people realize and to be honest the first thing most people do when getting on a computer is fire up the web browser....I do. Now I do have a system that is strictly for VMs/media/gaming that runs Windows and I understand ChromeOS will probably never be a suitable replacement for it. But to do what most people do on a computer it can be done through Chome and it's offered extensions.

    My concern is that more and more Chromebooks are coming out but their prices are creeping close to the $500 mark. The price is what made Chromebooks so mainstream I just hope that since they are gaining in marketshare that the price doesn't go up because of that. If Microsoft/OEMs release decent products in the <$300 range than Chromebooks are pretty much done for I think, people know the Windows name much more than the Chromebook.

    My questions/items to discuss:
    1. Do you use a Chromebook and like it? Is it enough to be your daily device?
    2. How is Google Docs for daily use?
    3. Do you think they will continue to grow in the business world?
    4. In a podcast I watch somebody said Google and business should never be used in the same sentence, is Google bad for businesses?
    5. Will future Chromebooks be released in the $200-$250 price range?
    6. Can a Chromebook be used for Android app development?
  2. #2  

    Default Re: Chromebook Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by thatotherdude24 View Post
    1. Do you use a Chromebook and like it? Is it enough to be your daily device?
    I first tried a Samsung Series 3 Chromebook about a year and half ago, and it was underwhelming. Returned it, but recently became interested in them again after reading various reviews on the improved performance of the newer units with the Haswell CPU. So I got an Acer C720 last week, and have been quite impressed so far. Nice and lean, but still speedy enough for my needs (web browsing, Google Drive productivity, responding to threads in this forum and writing Guides). Not sure if it would be my daily device, because the main gap is games--but if my day will mostly be about productivity, then I will gladly bring my Chromebook along (I can always play games on my Nexus 5 anyway).

    Quote Originally Posted by thatotherdude24 View Post
    2. How is Google Docs for daily use?
    I find Google Drive apps more than adequate for my needs, but I'm not doing very detailed documents or spreadsheets. I think it's perfect for a college student or a writer.

    Quote Originally Posted by thatotherdude24 View Post
    3. Do you think they will continue to grow in the business world?
    I think they'll continue to gain in popularity, but more in the educational and personal world. Chromebook makers need to be cautious about price creep--you'll notice that the newest Samsung looks more luxe, and the price tag is accordingly higher. But the thing is, the people who are going to buy Chromebooks are looking for a cheap laptop replacement, so they won't be that interested in shelling out upwards of $400--they'll probably spring for a Windows laptop instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by thatotherdude24 View Post
    5. Will future Chromebooks be released in the $200-$250 price range?
    The Acer Chromebooks seem to be selling pretty well, and they range from $200 to $300. As discussed above, I think Chromebook makers need to keep the prices low to stay relevant.

    I don't have good answers for your other questions.
  3. Thread Author  Thread Author    #3  

    Default Re: Chromebook Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Diddy View Post
    I first tried a Samsung Series 3 Chromebook about a year and half ago, and it was underwhelming. Returned it, but recently became interested in them again after reading various reviews on the improved performance of the newer units with the Haswell CPU. So I got an Acer C720 last week, and have been quite impressed so far. Nice and lean, but still speedy enough for my needs (web browsing, Google Drive productivity, responding to threads in this forum and writing Guides). Not sure if it would be my daily device, because the main gap is games--but if my day will mostly be about productivity, then I will gladly bring my Chromebook along (I can always play games on my Nexus 5 anyway).



    I find Google Drive apps more than adequate for my needs, but I'm not doing very detailed documents or spreadsheets. I think it's perfect for a college student or a writer.



    I think they'll continue to gain in popularity, but more in the educational and personal world. Chromebook makers need to be cautious about price creep--you'll notice that the newest Samsung looks more luxe, and the price tag is accordingly higher. But the thing is, the people who are going to buy Chromebooks are looking for a cheap laptop replacement, so they won't be that interested in shelling out upwards of $400--they'll probably spring for a Windows laptop instead.



    The Acer Chromebooks seem to be selling pretty well, and they range from $200 to $300. As discussed above, I think Chromebook makers need to keep the prices low to stay relevant.

    I don't have good answers for your other questions.
    I touched on a little of what you said. I do think the manufacturers are starting to get a little to confident with their pricing. If you have a $400 Chromebook and a $400 Windows laptop side by side the consumer is going for Windows.

    Although Samsung as of now is the only manufacturer going past $300 and they do have a premium price on everything they make. If Acer or HP went to the $300+ mark without having a cheaper model that would be cause for concern.

    Sent From My Woven Black and Yellow Moto X
  4. #4  

    Default Re: Chromebook Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by thatotherdude24 View Post
    I touched on a little of what you said. I do think the manufacturers are starting to get a little to confident with their pricing. If you have a $400 Chromebook and a $400 Windows laptop side by side the consumer is going for Windows.
    Whoops! Sorry, I was concentrating more on your questions. But we came to the same conclusion, so you know what they say about great minds ...
  5. Thread Author  Thread Author    #5  

    Default Re: Chromebook Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Diddy View Post
    Whoops! Sorry, I was concentrating more on your questions. But we came to the same conclusion, so you know what they say about great minds ...
    They buy Chromebooks?

    Sent From My Woven Black and Yellow Moto X
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    Default Re: Chromebook Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by thatotherdude24 View Post
    My questions/items to discuss:
    1. Do you use a Chromebook and like it? Is it enough to be your daily device?
    I looked at them as a potential replacement for a laptop. I am the go-to tech guy for my office and among my friends. They don't suck at what they do, but what they do can generally be done better by a tablet or Laptop. So I have been recommending to friends and co-workers that they buy cheap laptops instead. A $300 Win8 laptop is fast and flexible.

    They do fill a niche, but a narrow one IMO.

    2. How is Google Docs for daily use?
    I love it. I use it as an ad-hock intranet for my office. So long as your internet connection is reliable, it is very reliable. You can import and export in many standard formats...I can store PDFs on it for example and download them at will or just display them. I use excel sheets for tracking grids on my files at work. All of it is sharable and all of it can be restricted or secured. The share option is a big deal IMO and makes this product automatically more flexible than normal office suites.

    The options are not as robust as a real office suite like Open Office or Microsoft Office. But if your needs are basic (and most people's are IMO) it works well, and you can access the documents from anywhere. It doesn't suck that it is also free.

    3. Do you think they will continue to grow in the business world?
    Probably. It is not near mature enough to replace Office, but it is gaining ground every year.

    5. Will future Chromebooks be released in the $200-$250 price range?
    They already are. I have seen them as low as $199 before.

    6. Can a Chromebook be used for Android app development?
    Doubt it...You will need a real PC for that. Even if there is an Android SDK for Chrome OS, you'd still need real peripheral apps like Photoshop or whatever.
  7. #7  

    Default Re: Chromebook Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffDenver View Post
    They don't suck at what they do, but what they do can generally be done better by a tablet or Laptop. So I have been recommending to friends and co-workers that they buy cheap laptops instead. A $300 Win8 laptop is fast and flexible.
    I used to think this, but I've become increasingly annoyed with my $300 Toshiba Windows 8.1 laptop when it comes to startup and bulk. It actually has decent specs (Pentium 2020M CPU and 6 GB of RAM), but when starting up from sleep and firing up Chrome, it often takes about 10-15 seconds before it's ready to access anything. Chromebook is ready to go in about 2 seconds. And a sub-3 lb device is so much nicer to tote to the local cafe than the 5 lb laptop (and I basically have to bring the charger with the laptop, but not with the Chromebook).
  8. Thread Author  Thread Author    #8  

    Default Re: Chromebook Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Diddy View Post
    I used to think this, but I've become increasingly annoyed with my $300 Toshiba Windows 8.1 laptop when it comes to startup and bulk. It actually has decent specs (Pentium 2020M CPU and 6 GB of RAM), but when starting up from sleep and firing up Chrome, it often takes about 10-15 seconds before it's ready to access anything. Chromebook is ready to go in about 2 seconds. And a sub-3 lb device is so much nicer to tote to the local cafe than the 5 lb laptop (and I basically have to bring the charger with the laptop, but not with the Chromebook).
    About 9 days ago I bought a Lenovo U430 from Best Buy. It's stacked, 4th gen i5, 8gb ram, 500gb hdd and I notice the startup time too on this thing. Yes I have disabled startup programs, even did a clean install. I get what you're saying, when I push the power button I want my stuff to be there and just work. For a long time and still Macs were/are the definition of 'they just work' by many people. Even more so now Chromebooks are truly the device 'that just works' and if it dies you don't lose everything and you go buy a new one for $200-$300. I have even seen too that the HP 14 Chromebook has upgradable RAM, to 16gb.

    I think I just talked myself into buying one.
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  9. #9  

    Default Re: Chromebook Discussion

    Chromebooks will always be a secondary device. It will never be a primary device where any serious work needs to get done.

    Speaking of which, I finally pulled the trigger and ordered my new PC build off NewEgg:

    i7-4770k
    GTX 760 with 4GB GDDR5
    16 GB RAM
    240 GB SSD, 4 TB HDD

    All for about $1200. It's a pretty modest build, but I'm hoping the 8 threads will futureproof me for the next generation of games.

    A Chromebook would never be able to do what my PC can.
  10. #10  

    Default Re: Chromebook Discussion

    As an educator, I can see the allure of chrome books in the classroom, having had my fair share of headaches and frustrations with windows laptops.

    For one, since the laptops our pupils use are locked down with admin restrictions, the only things they can do is browse the web and use Office. For the latter, I am finding that google docs is simply more versatile for collaborative work. It is so convenient to have pupils work on a shared piece of writing without needing to huddle collectively over one laptop, or to simply share the document link with me rather than emailing it to me (and I still have to download and open it). Plus, I can make my own corrections and any changes will be reflected win real time automatically.

    Fewer features is a good thing when this means that pupils can't email you essays with a black background and light blue font.

    Second, chrome OS would actually mean we don't have to deal with all the problems inherent with windows (further exacerbated by all the security and administrative software preloaded on them). Fewer problems mean less time spent troubleshooting them (imagine doing this for 40 pupils), leaving more time for actually getting things done.

    Third would be price. We can easily get 2-3 chrome books for every full-powered laptop.

    In this context, I would argue that chrome books can actually suit the pupils' needs better. The biggest challenge here would be convincing old-fashioned school leaders who believe that we must use windows or Office for content creation.


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    Default Re: Chromebook Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Geodude074 View Post
    Chromebooks will always be a secondary device. It will never be a primary device where any serious work needs to get done.
    I would never say never...but I agree it is nowhere close to that right now. Chrome OS needs a LOT of work before it is ready to replace a Windows machine for productivity.
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    Default Re: Chromebook Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by abazigal View Post
    In this context, I would argue that chrome books can actually suit the pupils' needs better.
    Because it is less functional and handcuffs the students. I totally agree.

    That is also what makes it less appealing to everyone else IMO.
  13. #13  

    Default Re: Chromebook Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Geodude074 View Post
    Chromebooks will always be a secondary device. It will never be a primary device where any serious work needs to get done.

    Speaking of which, I finally pulled the trigger and ordered my new PC build off NewEgg:

    i7-4770k
    GTX 760 with 4GB GDDR5
    16 GB RAM
    240 GB SSD, 4 TB HDD

    All for about $1200. It's a pretty modest build, but I'm hoping the 8 threads will futureproof me for the next generation of games.

    A Chromebook would never be able to do what my PC can.
    Well sure, a Chromebook won't be able to do what your PC does, because that's not what it's intended to do. It will clearly never replace a powerhouse workstation. But I find it much more portable than a typical laptop (not counting ultrabooks that cost 5 times as much) and much more productive than a tablet. Google Drive/Docs is getting more and more powerful and versatile, so the definition of "serious work" might start to change.

    Another advantage of Chromebooks that I just experienced is the security factor. I idiotically lost my Chromebook (derp advice of the day: Don't put stuff on the roof of your car and assume you'll remember it's there), but I'm not overly worried because (a) it was cheap to begin with, and (b) I don't have to worry about someone finding it and recovering sensitive information from the hard drive, or being able to hack into my account easily.

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    Default Re: Chromebook Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Diddy View Post
    Well sure, a Chromebook won't be able to do what your PC does, because that's not what it's intended to do. It will clearly never replace a powerhouse workstation.
    It won't replace a non-powerhouse workstation either. Even the cheapest Win8 Laptops will run Photoshop CS2 well (meaning without significant lag).

    I could do all my work at my office on any cheap laptop being sold today. I could not do all of it on a Chromebook though.

    Google Drive/Docs is getting more and more powerful and versatile, so the definition of "serious work" might start to change.
    I agree, and I use Drive all day every day. If all you need is Google Drive, a Chromebook can fully replace a PC. IMO though, most people will use more.
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    Default Re: Chromebook Discussion

    I absolutely love my Chromebook. I'm a student and do statistical analysis and predictive mathematical modeling for my job. I use the Chromebook almost exclusively for school and I don't use it at all for work, currently. The barrier for work is not that it can't do the tasks (it can't do everything, but even with what I do it can do most of it - what it can't do is because of specific niche stuff like excel, mssms and SAS, etc), but because the rest of my business is not currently on Google Docs and it's easier to work on the same platform as they are. I do a lot of stuff with the forums from my Chromebook and it has essentially replaced my Nexus 7 as my favorite device to reach for, although I still like mobile gaming on the nexus more than everything else.

    My current device array is Moto X, Nexus 7, Chromebook and a mid-range gaming PC (alienware) that basically runs PC games and chrome canary in Windows 8 mode so it basically duplicates my ChromeOS. I do have Office on my home PC, although it's basically for playing around in VBA at this point since I use Google Docs for just about everything (that doesn't require macros or very intensive formulas, etc) because of the ubiquitous sync. All of those devices have wildly different use cases and generally all mix well with the Chromecast, Google TV and my wife's Moto X and Nexus 7 for sharing content among ourselves.

    For a student, if you do not require software that you can only get on a Mac, there's nothing I'd ever recommend except a Chromebook UNLESS the person wanted to spend on a Macbook Pro OR if they were also going to use the laptop for gaming, etc. Obviously there is a big difference in a $200 laptop and a $2,600 laptop, but just about everything in between, to me, means the wrong tool is being selected. In the case of gamers, I'd strongly recommend a mid-range desktop and a Chromebook.
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  16. #16  

    Default Re: Chromebook Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffDenver View Post
    Because it is less functional and handcuffs the students. I totally agree.

    That is also what makes it less appealing to everyone else IMO.
    I don't deny that. Just thought I might share some scenarios where a chrome book might shine. People like to equate more features with getting more value for your money, but the problem then comes when you are not getting more of what you want, but instead more issues that you need to handle.

    Not saying that a chrome book is for everyone, just in this case, I can argue about how it may not be inferior to normal Windows laptop in terms of what it allows the pupils to do.
  17. Thread Author  Thread Author    #17  

    Default Re: Chromebook Discussion

    I got the Acer C720 today from Walmart and I am impressed. I haven't played with it much but I love how I out of the box I pushed the power button and there I was already working. The forward and back buttons on the keyboard are pretty nice, one of those things you don't realize how useful they are until you have them. I cannot figure out what the equivelent of the 'home' or 'end' button is on ChromeOS, anybody know?

    The keyboard on the C720 feels very cheap and is hard to get used to but again I'm on a $200 device.
  18. #18  

    Default Re: Chromebook Discussion

    Home is Ctrl-Alt-Up, and End is Ctrl-Alt-Down. You can bring up a handy keyboard map by pressing Ctrl-Alt-/. With the keyboard diagram up, pressing Ctrl or Alt or the combination will bring up what functions you can perform.
  19. #19  
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    Default Re: Chromebook Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by thatotherdude24 View Post
    My questions/items to discuss:
    1. Do you use a Chromebook and like it? Is it enough to be your daily device?
    2. How is Google Docs for daily use?
    3. Do you think they will continue to grow in the business world?
    4. In a podcast I watch somebody said Google and business should never be used in the same sentence, is Google bad for businesses?
    5. Will future Chromebooks be released in the $200-$250 price range?
    6. Can a Chromebook be used for Android app development?
    1) I own a chromebook (Samsung Chromebook Series 3) and really like using it. I probably use it more for internet browsing (except maybe my desktop with 23" HD monitor) than any of my other desktop/laptops/tablets.

    2) I've only used Google Docs a couple times, but didn't have any problems with it and thought it worked well.

    3) Yes, although I think schools will be their biggest sector for adoption.

    4) It depends on how you view Google's "spying". If you view Google's data collection as spying, then yeah, Google is bad for business. If you view Google's data collection as analogous to free, commercial radio and TV station advertising but updated for the internet age, then Google is probably good for business.

    5) Most chromebooks are currently being sold for under $300, and some of them are as cheap as $200.

    6) I personally think Chrome OS will replace Android as Google's mobile operating system; in order for that to happen Android apps need to be created for Chrome OS.
    Android smartphones: Samsung Galaxy Nexus, Motorola Droid 2
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    Default Re: Chromebook Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by thatotherdude24 View Post
    I touched on a little of what you said. I do think the manufacturers are starting to get a little to confident with their pricing. If you have a $400 Chromebook and a $400 Windows laptop side by side the consumer is going for Windows.
    Not necessarily if you are already a chromebook convert. I already have serious interest in buying the 13.3" version of the Samsung Chromebook 2.
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    Default Re: Chromebook Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by CHIP72 View Post
    Not necessarily if you are already a chromebook convert. I already have serious interest in buying the 13.3" version of the Samsung Chromebook 2.
    Not to mention that most $400 Windows (perhaps not an Asus, but most) laptops are going to be garbage, while a $400 is essentially top of the line (not including the Pixel) for Chromebooks. We covered this in another thread, but getting a laptop that runs Windows well and has the power to run well the few programs which are not easily replicated as web apps is not going to be $300 or 400, but $600-800 minimum.
  22. #22  

    Default Re: Chromebook Discussion

    There is a positive hardware trade off with Chromebooks as well. Typically Chromebooks have better keyboards and trackpads than similarly priced windows machines, even in the four hundred dollar range. There is the storage trade off as well. If you want an ssd on your windows machine you'll generally need to spend upwards of 600.00. Chromebooks get away with doing it for less because they need less storage to run the operating system. If you intend to use online storage this may be an excellent trade off.

    The other thing to think of is that remote desktop works really well. If it's not your only computer it may be a very good solution. It will essentially allow you to use your desktop from anywhere. The latency is all but unnoticable (perhaps in gaming it would be an issue).

    If it's going to be your only computer it becomes a little bit more complicated, but here is my take.

    Microsoft made a huge mistake with windows 8. They wanted to leverage their PC market share to gain in the mobile space. They therefore made the basis of windows 8 essentially a mobile interface. People don't want that though. People would prefer a mobile system that functions as much like a desktop as possible rather than the other way around. Google got this right. For many intents and purposes Chromebooks act more like windows machines than windows does now. That's what people who've never used one don't understand about Chromebooks. They get all the ux things right, which is a much bigger boon to productivity than you would imagine. Having an actual desktop environment with movable, resizable windows is a big deal. Google is making the case that the browser can be a virtual machine that is lightweight, can live on it's own, or inside a larger environment. It's still a bit limited, but their getting more convincing all the time.
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  23. Thread Author  Thread Author    #23  

    Default Re: Chromebook Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by iknownothing View Post
    There is a positive hardware trade off with Chromebooks as well. Typically Chromebooks have better keyboards and trackpads than similarly priced windows machines, even in the four hundred dollar range. There is the storage trade off as well. If you want an ssd on your windows machine you'll generally need to spend upwards of 600.00. Chromebooks get away with doing it for less because they need less storage to run the operating system. If you intend to use online storage this may be an excellent trade off.

    The other thing to think of is that remote desktop works really well. If it's not your only computer it may be a very good solution. It will essentially allow you to use your desktop from anywhere. The latency is all but unnoticable (perhaps in gaming it would be an issue).

    If it's going to be your only computer it becomes a little bit more complicated, but here is my take.

    Microsoft made a huge mistake with windows 8. They wanted to leverage their PC market share to gain in the mobile space. They therefore made the basis of windows 8 essentially a mobile interface. People don't want that though. People would prefer a mobile system that functions as much like a desktop as possible rather than the other way around. Google got this right. For many intents and purposes Chromebooks act more like windows machines than windows does now. That's what people who've never used one don't understand about Chromebooks. They get all the ux things right, which is a much bigger boon to productivity than you would imagine. Having an actual desktop environment with movable, resizable windows is a big deal. Google is making the case that the browser can be a virtual machine that is lightweight, can live on it's own, or inside a larger environment. It's still a bit limited, but their getting more convincing all the time.
    The keyboard comparison I do disagree with. I got the C720 and I think the keyboard is pretty bad, I think. Feels very cheap and the keys don't 'wholelly' press down when you push them. I do also realize I am using a $200 device. I love the touchpad.

    Microsoft has always been the dominator in desktop OS's. Now they have competition and desktop devices are declining in favor of mobile devices. Their mentality was to create 1 OS to rule them all. That will not work. I don't speak for everybody but I work with standard users on a daily basis, when somebody picks up a tablet they have a different use in mind than sitting down with a laptop or desktop. I have used the Miix2, an 8'' W8.1 device and desktop mode is unusable because the desktop is so small.

    Personally I have no problems with W8.1 but the way they went about it was not ideal, a VERY big change and sudden. I think the ideal option would have been to remove the desktop from RT and make that their mobile OS and keep W8.1 how it is.
  24. #24  
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    Default Re: Chromebook Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by thatotherdude24 View Post
    The keyboard comparison I do disagree with. I got the C720 and I think the keyboard is pretty bad, I think. Feels very cheap and the keys don't 'wholelly' press down when you push them. I do also realize I am using a $200 device. I love the touchpad.
    Have you played with the HP11? The aesthetics and feel of that device are better than many $1000+ laptops. It's main hiccup is that it's the 2012 Samsung device on most of it's internals, with a much better shell and an amazing screen for a sub $1000 laptop. If only someone would have put the C720 specs or what Samsung is pushing out this year inside that wrapper...
  25. #25  
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    Default Re: Chromebook Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by thatotherdude24 View Post
    1. Do you use a Chromebook and like it? Is it enough to be your daily device?
    Yes, my second one in fact. Yes. I own a Mac Mini and I use Chrome Remote Desktop if I need some of the more sophisticated apps on the Mini but for the most part, I use my chromebook when I'm lounging around. Actually, I've got my Mini streaming some music right now w/visualizer while I kick back in my recliner and browse with my chromebook.

    2. How is Google Docs for daily use?
    Meh, I don't like it to be honest. A little buggy and slow. Just doesn't seem very responsive. It's better on my HP 14 than it was on my Samsung 3 but overall I am just not impressed with Google Docs Writer. There are some good solutions "in the cloud" like roll.app (slow but usable) and ZoHo Writer (excellent but online only). To be honest though, I boot Ubuntu so I can have LibreOffice run locally. Google Docs needs a bit more work IMO. It is AMAZING for collaboration though.

    3. Do you think they will continue to grow in the business world?
    Sure. As virtualization tech improves and online infrastructure improves. If we can reach the point where running apps over the internet is as seemless as running them locally, there really won't be a need for a device with super robust hardware. Chrome OS's problem isn't that it isn't capable of powering this kind of software, it's problem is that Google didn't have that software ready to go at launch. Chrome OS is much more sophisticated now than when it first came out a couple years ago.

    4. In a podcast I watch somebody said Google and business should never be used in the same sentence, is Google bad for businesses?
    I'm not touching this one. The software is certainly valuable for its collaborative use, sharing, and ability to access from anywhere. Whether Google is the company you want managing your business software is another question entirely.

    5. Will future Chromebooks be released in the $200-$250 price range?
    Acer's had some real winners with their C7 line. I think we'll see more high end model and luxury units but I don't think Acer's getting rid of their low end devices anytime soon.

    6. Can a Chromebook be used for Android app development?
    Passing on this one as I don't know
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