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  1. Thread Author  Thread Author    #1  

    Default Nokia blows off Android,goes with Windows Phone.

    I can't understand this myself. Is there a method to their madness?
    Last edited by experiment626; 02-11-2011 at 12:38 PM.
  2. #2  

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    Microsoft = HUGE, DEEP pockets.

    Nokia = Loves money? Microsoft buys their loyalty, and buys just about everything else, including ideas they pawn off as theirs.
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    Noah Kravitz from Techno Buffalo said it best regarding Nokia and Microsoft on Twitter today:

    "it's like two drunks holding each other up"

    I totally agree.
  4. #4  

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    Regarding this deal I heard it quoted as it now being a three horse race to smartphone share. Umm no, NOW it's a two horse race and we only need to place.
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    I cant see windows mobile ever being big in the united states. Theres too much more android, ios offer, than what microsoft can do. plus this ui is absolutely disgusting.
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    This deal is a huge win for MS...but I can't figure out what's in it for Nokia.
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    There are two plausible explanations here IMO:

    1) There is obviously a lot of turmoil between the old Nokia corporate culture and any viable direction it can take itself. So Elop chose to go with MSFT, because they need Nokia as badly as Nokia needs WP7, making it feel more like a partnership than a whole-hog switch to being an OEM. Of course in practice that's still what they will be doing, but perhaps with a couple of extra sliced from the ecosystem pie.

    2) MSFT is in effect pulling a stealth takeover of Nokia, and will acquire their IP (sorry, "do a merger") when their market cap gets to a reasonable level, letting MS do the Apple thing when it comes to controlling hardware/software, as well as owning many IP licenses to let them take a piece of Apple and Google's pie.

    Normally I'd say it must be the first option, as a stealth takeover of this size in the middle of Europe would near insanity (especially since Elop just came from a MSFT VPship). Still, assuming it's scenario 1 it's hard to understand the timing of todays announcement. They should have announced a closer alliance with MSFT, that in exchange for marketing and development assistance (read: cash) they will be using Bing and other MS services in their lineup, and they will be looking at developing a high end WP7 phone. Then when they have a sexy piece of kit ready to sell (hopefully in time for the holidays) they announce they are switching to WP7.

    Today's timing is awful. Their market share is already in freefall, but they announced they are EOLing Symbian over the next two years, which will speed up their market share losses. Worse, they announced today that the Qt development framework will not be supported, so they just flipped the bird to all of their Symbian developers. How well supported do you think Symbian apps will be over the next year or so? And with all of the job cuts they warned are coming, they are selling out the remainder of their good will in Europe as well.

    Seriously, Nokia will be lucky if they are selling 1 out of every 10 smartphones around the world by the time a WP7 device with Nokia branding ships. And it will take even longer before they can produce one in the low cost range that serves most of the current distribution channels. It's really hard to understand why this move was announced at this time. Assuming Elop doesn't have ulterior motives, it's hard not to infer that he's in over his head here and is making some poor decisions.
  8. #8  

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    Its an interesting matchthat could be a marriage of two big and rich companies that have an ecosystem that can challenge Apple and Google or it could be a hilarious mismatch that we watch fall apart for our own amusement. Either way for us as Android fans its better to have more horses in the race because it will spur on Google and the Android OEMs. It will be interesting to see if Samsung and LG and some of Microsofts other partners stick with WP7.
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    With the bankroll that Nokia has for R&D, this shouldn't have happened. Nokia has always had solid hardware, too bad they failed with their software. WP7 could be competitive with a modern UI, but with this marriage, I see nothing but more failure.
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    "Quick get David Blaine on the phone-we need to book him AGAIN! Tell him Dan is calling."
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    Quote Originally Posted by K Bear View Post
    With the bankroll that Nokia has for R&D, this shouldn't have happened. Nokia has always had solid hardware, too bad they failed with their software. WP7 could be competitive with a modern UI, but with this marriage, I see nothing but more failure.
    That's the point. Nokia's software sucks, but their hardware is great.

    I don't know if any of you saw today, but there were stories about symbian engineers walking out of work early out of protest. Did any of you catch the number? There were 2500 software engineers just for symbian. That's INSANE. That right there is indicative of what is wrong with Nokia.

    Here's why I think this is the smartest thing Nokia could have done: WP7 is a brilliant platform with immense potential. But it has very little hardware support right now. (The opposite is true of Nokia; it had great hardware and crummy software. ) By marrying Nokia's great hardware with the great software, each has a much better chance of survival. Couple that with all of the new integration between Nokia's services and WP7, and with what seems like a license for Nokia to do whatever it wants with WP7 on their devices, and you have a strategy that just might work.

    Here's why they didn't choose Android either: they would have had ZERO say whatsoever over anything having to do with the platform. All they could do would be to develop skins a la Sense, but the core UI and experience would be the same. With the deal with Microsoft, they can do ANYTHING they want to WP7, AND they have a great deal of influence over the OS as its being nurtured and developed by Microsoft. Essentially, its the difference between Nokia having their hands in the development with WP7 right up to release, and only being able to get Android when Google says its ready.

    Its an intriguing arrangement, and I'm interested to see how it plays out.
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    Agreed this is an interesting partnership.

    Contrary to the anti-MS FUD earlier in the thread, WP7 is a completely modern, first class OS. It has the best UI of the major smartphone OSes and excellent backend "plumbing".

    Nokia brings first class hardware to the table, and gives WP7 an entry gate into Europe that the stupid EU is unlikely to mess with. Plus Nokia is getting permission to customize WP7 more than an OEM typically does. Now they already have stated they are not going to alter the Metro UI, but there are lots of places they can bring things they do better than MS into the OS. For example Nokia's imaging technology in smartphones is the most advanced in the world, and it is coming to WP7.

    I do not think this threatens Android so much as it threatens iOS. This type of ecosystem creating alliance is aimed at Apple more than Android, where the focus is less on ecosystem and more on diversity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Droid800 View Post
    Here's why I think this is the smartest thing Nokia could have done: WP7 is a brilliant platform with immense potential. But it has very little hardware support right now. (The opposite is true of Nokia; it had great hardware and crummy software. ) By marrying Nokia's great hardware with the great software, each has a much better chance of survival. Couple that with all of the new integration between Nokia's services and WP7, and with what seems like a license for Nokia to do whatever it wants with WP7 on their devices, and you have a strategy that just might work.

    Here's why they didn't choose Android either: they would have had ZERO say whatsoever over anything having to do with the platform. All they could do would be to develop skins a la Sense, but the core UI and experience would be the same. With the deal with Microsoft, they can do ANYTHING they want to WP7, AND they have a great deal of influence over the OS as its being nurtured and developed by Microsoft. Essentially, its the difference between Nokia having their hands in the development with WP7 right up to release, and only being able to get Android when Google says its ready.
    I definitely agree about Nokia's hardware but I thought MSFT insisted on keeping it's WP OS on a short leash like Apple does with iOS. If they let Nokia start customizing their version of WP won't Samsung and HTC demand the same freedoms? Won't WP OS become fragmented like Android has with different handset manufacturers offering OS upgrades as they see fit?
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    I think the decision is a decent risk for Nokia. They had a choice between being the big fish in the pond by using Windows, out they could be one of many players for Android, and a Johnny-come-lately at that. I know which option I'd choose if I was an arrogant CEO worried about my job!

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    Everything about this deal screams cold hard cash. By partnering with Microsoft, that's a huge fat check right up front. By going with Android, Nokia doesn't have that nice chunk of change sitting in their wallet until they configure, develop, release, and begin to sell something.

    Which is ironic, seeing as how they had net income numbers of well over $2 billion in 2010.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Droid800 View Post
    That's the point. Nokia's software sucks, but their hardware is great.
    True.

    Here's why I think this is the smartest thing Nokia could have done: WP7 is a brilliant platform with immense potential. But it has very little hardware support right now. (The opposite is true of Nokia; it had great hardware and crummy software. ) By marrying Nokia's great hardware with the great software, each has a much better chance of survival.
    I don't think so. To be sure, WP7 is a very well done platform. But they already have plenty of vendors to have made a splash. Their problem is that consumers aren't interested in another ecosystem, i.e. WP7 is about 18 months too late. Adding Nokia as a WP7 OEM is unlikely to benefit them much more than adding Motorola would.

    Couple that with all of the new integration between Nokia's services and WP7, and with what seems like a license for Nokia to do whatever it wants with WP7 on their devices, and you have a strategy that just might work.
    I recommend you go read this interview with WP7s Aaron Woodman, and you'll see that they are already dramatically tamping down discussion of letting Nokia meddle much under the hood of WP7. In fact Woodman refers to Nokia simply as a WP7 "OEM"...which possibly wasn't the most PC way he could have phrased it.

    It's true that picking WP7 will solidify the use of Nokia's map services on that platform (which is a bit more revenue) but in the end that seems like a huge bet to make, rather than just being an OEM for multiple mobile OSes, if the OEM route is the one they are essentially taking.

    In the end they'd probably have had a lot more freedom to alter the user experience on Android, but that's not what they really care about. They cut a deal to get revenue from their mapping service (which obviously Android doesn't need). And it'll only work if WP7 succeeds, which is not actually made much more likely by this deal. Nokia will end up in two years that much further behind making Android phones, with no access to the volume inexpensive smartphone market without Symbian. If they'd gone the all out OEM route they could have at least parlayed their strong hardware brand, while making WP7 phones, Android phones, Symbian phones (without any pressure to EOL them) and even Meego phones (albeit with a trimmed down and restructured development team).

    Here's why they didn't choose Android either: they would have had ZERO say whatsoever over anything having to do with the platform. All they could do would be to develop skins a la Sense, but the core UI and experience would be the same. With the deal with Microsoft, they can do ANYTHING they want to WP7, AND they have a great deal of influence over the OS as its being nurtured and developed by Microsoft. Essentially, its the difference between Nokia having their hands in the development with WP7 right up to release, and only being able to get Android when Google says its ready.
    As I said, the idea that Nokia will get free reign (or even significant freedom) to mess with WP7 turns out to be simply false; it's the type of over-reaching statements you'd expect from a CEO who knows he has a company in revolt over the decision. Also, given how poor Nokia's software development trackrecord is, why do you imagine that letting them meddle with WP7 development would be a positive thing for the platform? Don't you think MSFT is also aware of that?

    Its an intriguing arrangement, and I'm interested to see how it plays out.
    Meh. It's intriguing in the sense that I've rarely seen such a poor decision as the one Nokia has chosen to pursue; and that's not a knock on WP7 either. Even if Nokia had decided it was in their best interest to move to WP7 they could have handled it soooo much better. They should never had announced exclusivity this far in advance of having a product ready to ship. They should never had EOLed Symbian publicly like this (it's going to cause their market share collapse this year and their developers to abandon ship, followed by the hemorrhaging of their distribution network and manufacturing channels).

    If they'd announced a closer relationship with MS, including putting Bing on all their phones and WP7 officially adopting Nokia's maps, perhaps closer collaboration on their app stores, etc., that would have made sense. Announce they are looking into supplementing Symbina/Meego development with other platforms. Build a really top notch WP7 handset (hopefully ready before the holidays) and then if it garners good reviews announce you're dropping Meego for WP7.

    But the way it's handled it will be a disaster for Nokia, and is unlikely to get WP7 more than 2-3% extra marketshare over the next 24 months, if that.
    Last edited by ottscay; 02-16-2011 at 02:43 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by experiment626 View Post
    I definitely agree about Nokia's hardware but I thought MSFT insisted on keeping it's WP OS on a short leash like Apple does with iOS. If they let Nokia start customizing their version of WP won't Samsung and HTC demand the same freedoms? Won't WP OS become fragmented like Android has with different handset manufacturers offering OS upgrades as they see fit?
    Nokia has been given special permission to modify WP7 as it sees fit, since it is now Microsoft's direct development partner. (anything Nokia does to it will filter back to WP7 as a whole.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by ottscay View Post
    True.



    I don't think so. To be sure, WP7 is a very well done platform. But they already have plenty of vendors to have made a splash. Their problem is that consumers aren't interested in another ecosystem, i.e. WP7 is about 18 months too late. Adding Nokia as a WP7 OEM is unlikely to benefit them much more than adding Motorola would.
    Wrong. The difference is that Nokia has a tremendous development and software development infrastructure already set up, larger than any other company's. The terms of the deal also are much more significant than just adding motorola; Nokia isn't just some OEM (the fact that you think so makes me think you've been reading too much AC or other Android blogs), they are microsoft's direct partner in WP7 development. Microsoft and Nokia sit at the top, and the other OEMS like HTC are below them.


    I recommend you go read this interview with WP7s Aaron Woodman, and you'll see that they are already dramatically tamping down discussion of letting Nokia meddle much under the hood of WP7. In fact Woodman refers to Nokia simply as a WP7 "OEM"...which possibly wasn't the most PC way he could have phrased it.
    Actually, that's not correct. Nokia has been given carte blanche to do what it wants to WP7. They have already said they won't, however, because they don't want to fragment the platform like Android. Reading your post, it also seems that you completely misunderstand the relationship between Nokia and Microsoft here; Nokia isn't just some OEM, they are going to be doing a fair bit of development and under the hood development with microsoft on the platform. They'll be doing far more than any other WP7 OEM will be allowed to do, and that's the terms of the deal.

    Nokia says it can customize the heck out of Windows Phone, won't do anything that would delay updates -- Engadget

    Also, read Woodman's interview again. Your statements above don't match anything he actually said.
    It's true that picking WP7 will solidify the use of Nokia's map services on that platform (which is a bit more revenue) but in the end that seems like a huge bet to make, rather than just being an OEM for multiple mobile OSes, if the OEM route is the one they are essentially taking.
    Except it isn't. They're not just some OEM.


    In the end they'd probably have had a lot more freedom to alter the user experience on Android, but that's not what they really care about. They cut a deal to get revenue from their mapping service (which obviously Android doesn't need). And it'll only work if WP7 succeeds, which is not actually made much more likely by this deal. Nokia will end up in two years that much further behind making Android phones, with no access to the volume inexpensive smartphone market without Symbian. If they'd gone the all out OEM route they could have at least parlayed their strong hardware brand, while making WP7 phones, Android phones, Symbian phones (without any pressure to EOL them) and even Meego phones (albeit with a trimmed down and restructured development team).
    To put it bluntly; Nokia wanted no part of Android because its turning into a fragmented and over-crowded mess. We know for a FACT that Google refused to let Nokia alter any core elements of the OS, including stripping out Google Maps and other elements to replace them with Nokia versions, and instead told them they could just develop skins like the other OEMs. Frankly, Google could have had a big win getting Nokia on board, but Schmidt's (and I would wager Rubin's) ego wouldn't cede the fact that Nokia *might* just have some better ways of doing things, and wouldn't let them do it. For the lack of Android, blame Google.

    As I said, the idea that Nokia will get free reign (or even significant freedom) to mess with WP7 turns out to be simply false; it's the type of over-reaching statements you'd expect from a CEO who knows he has a company in revolt over the decision. Also, given how poor Nokia's software development trackrecord is, why do you imagine that letting them meddle with WP7 development would be a positive thing for the platform? Don't you think MSFT is also aware of that?
    Except it isn't. Both Nokia and Microsoft have said that that the former will be allowed deep access into WP7 that other partners will not have.

    I would also kindly instruct to read the interview with Woodman again; he never said they wouldn't be allowed to customize. In fact, he said they WOULD be able to, and because of Nokia's special status, much of that should filter back up into WP7 as a whole. In fact, Woodman *specifically* says Nokia will be given the opportunity to make alterations to the OS that very well may not reach the other OEMs.


    Meh. It's intriguing in the sense that I've rarely seen such a poor decision as the one Nokia has chosen to pursue; and that's not a knock on WP7 either. Even if Nokia had decided it was in their best interest to move to WP7 they could have handled it soooo much better. They should never had announced exclusivity this far in advance of having a product ready to ship. They should never had EOLed Symbian publicly like this (it's going to cause their market share collapse this year and their developers to abandon ship, followed by the hemorrhaging of their distribution network and manufacturing channels).

    If they'd announced a closer relationship with MS, including putting Bing on all their phones and WP7 officially adopting Nokia's maps, perhaps closer collaboration on their app stores, etc., that would have made sense. Announce they are looking into supplementing Symbina/Meego development with other platforms. Build a really top notch WP7 handset (hopefully ready before the holidays) and then if it garners good reviews announce you're dropping Meego for WP7.

    But the way it's handled it will be a disaster for Nokia, and is unlikely to get WP7 more than 2-3% extra marketshare over the next 24 months, if that.
    Nokia has a handset on the way. It should be here within the next 12 months if not sooner. What they specifically said is that they would not have MULTIPLE handsets out, because they need time to wind-down Symbian and Meego, as well as restructure.

    I don't blame them for announcing what they did. In fact, there should be no doubt in anyone's mind that Nokia had no other choice. Continuing to limp through the market, without a clear way forward, would have been far more damaging to the company than announcing what they did. There has been an arrogance in Nokia's management for years, that what they were doing was right, that the questions about it were not worthy of response. They needed a bold response to the criticism, and they needed a bold move away from what the company has become in the last few years. And that's what we got. This won't be a disaster for Nokia, because they finally have a clear direction.
  19. #19  

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    It seems simple to me.

    1) Elop is ex-Microsoft. Personally he is probably more inclined to go with WP7.

    2) With Android, Nokia would have much more competition... HTC, Samsung, LG, Motorola etc. WP7 hasn't really broken out yet so Nokia has a chance to really be the brand people think of when they think WP7 devices.

    3) Microsoft likely offered Nokia money to use some of their stuff... namely Ovi Maps... in WP7.

    If Nokia had gone with Android, it would be game over for pretty much everyone other than Apple in the smartphone arena because Nokia is such a power in Asia, Africa and Europe. Them going with Microsoft leaves things open.
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    Here's why they didn't choose Android either: they would have had ZERO say whatsoever over anything having to do with the platform. All they could do would be to develop skins a la Sense, but the core UI and experience would be the same. With the deal with Microsoft, they can do ANYTHING they want to WP7, AND they have a great deal of influence over the OS as its being nurtured and developed by Microsoft. Essentially, its the difference between Nokia having their hands in the development with WP7 right up to release, and only being able to get Android when Google says its ready.
    This is a red flag for other WP7 OEMs, which has NO RIGHT to decide on any customization on WP7. It also means Nokia's WP7 is differentiated (read, forked, fragmented) from the "rest".

    I don't know you would raise this as a positive point when in fact this is a cause of alarm for other WP7 OEMs, which surely now have a vested interest against WP7.

    Supporting WP7 means supporting Nokia which means their biggest competitor.

    It is clear now what Samsung, LG, Motorola, HTC, Sony Ericsson, Huawei and ZTE has to do.
  21. #21  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Gibb View Post
    It seems simple to me.

    1) Elop is ex-Microsoft. Personally he is probably more inclined to go with WP7.

    2) With Android, Nokia would have much more competition... HTC, Samsung, LG, Motorola etc. WP7 hasn't really broken out yet so Nokia has a chance to really be the brand people think of when they think WP7 devices.

    3) Microsoft likely offered Nokia money to use some of their stuff... namely Ovi Maps... in WP7.

    If Nokia had gone with Android, it would be game over for pretty much everyone other than Apple in the smartphone arena because Nokia is such a power in Asia, Africa and Europe. Them going with Microsoft leaves things open.

    Elop only has three years with Microsoft. The guy who made that "Two Turkeys don't make an Eagle" tweet, Vic Gundotra, had 15 years with Microsoft.


    Nokia's power in Asia, Africa and Europe is actually rapidly declining. I'm not talking of smartphones. I'm talking of featurephones. Nokia's featurephones no longer differentiate properly from Samsung, LG, Huawei and ZTE. ZTE recently pushed out Apple into 4th place in the world's most prolific manufacturers of handsets.

    You can see Nokia's slowness to accept other possibilities. Like producing touch screen and slider [b]featurephones[b]. They keep insisting on the supremacy of the T9 candybar. LG and Samsung sold slider qwertys by the tens of millions, the KS360, the Corby. Sold tens and tens of millions of touchscreen featurephones, like the LG Cookie, the Samsung Star. These guys are also putting Facebook, Google, Twitter, Yahoo widgets into these Java based featurephones, which when used with data, gives them the ability to use social networking.

    Nokia has also been very slow in accepting things that Chinese handset makers did, like dual SIM handsets.

    Nokia is also rapidly losing relevance in places like the Middle East, where the preferred smartphone is, the Blackberry.
  22. #22  

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    Here's why I think this is the smartest thing Nokia could have done: WP7 is a brilliant platform with immense potential. But it has very little hardware support right now. (The opposite is true of Nokia; it had great hardware and crummy software. ) By marrying Nokia's great hardware with the great software, each has a much better chance of survival. Couple that with all of the new integration between Nokia's services and WP7, and with what seems like a license for Nokia to do whatever it wants with WP7 on their devices, and you have a strategy that just might work.
    That's incorrect. WP7 had great hardware support --- initially. I have not seen a brand new OS launch with 10 handsets.

    That's the problem. Microsoft sold 2 million licenses over the quarter. That's not a single phone. That's divided over 9 different phones. Get the average sold per handset, and you get a paltry number. So the handset makers took a bath on this, because you need a minimum in order to make a real profit from that model.

    Thus, selling the first 1 million WP7 handsets scattered in 9 to 10 different models are not the same as selling the first 1 million iPHones or the first 1 million G1s.

    Second, lately, I got a hard time seeing how Nokia's hardware is "great". Their designs are nice, but cold. They keep on insisting on running ARM11 processors and their latest upgrade is to 680Mhz, when everyone else is running 1GHz Snapdragons and Cortex A8 chips. Their screens are stuck on 640x320 when Androids are running on 800x480, much less compared to the iPhone's Retina resolution.

    Right now, Nokia lacks the screen technologies that Samsung, LG and Sony has. In fact, it has to buy LCDs, like OLEDs from Samsung. I also cannot say that their body finish is any better than HTC or Motorola now. Everyone has caught up in signal and voice quality.

    Another factor. Microsoft's insistence in running the Qualcomm 8250. By insisting on this one single chip, they are trying to cut down OS fragmentation. The problem is that the 8250 is the first generation Snapdragon, while Androids were already running more advanced Snapdragons, OMAPs, Hummingbirds using a 45nm process. When the WP7 phones came out, they were essentially outdated. Their hardware standard is essentially, the same as the Nexus One, when the banner for Android are things like the Desire HD.

    Immediately right off, the WP7 handsets came out of the game essentially outgunned by the standard bearer of the smartphone world, the iPhone 4.
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    Nokia's "deeper access" into WP7 is not about altering the UI - Nokia themselves already said that is not what it is.

    Much more likely it is them being able to dig down into the kernel to make WP7 run very closely with their rather unique smartphone equipment (for example, they have the best phone camera gear out there bar none). They have other tech differentiators that also need custom low level drivers and such to really shine.

    Really this is a good deal for both parties. WP7 gets exposure it needs (and it is a VERY good smartphone OS that has gotten a bit buried by bungled marketing) and Nokia gets a fully modern and growing platform (basically everything Symbian was not).
  24. #24  

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    Its still favoritism. Allowing access for one and not others.

    Their best camera parts are bought from others. Carl Zeiss and Schneider and now incidentally, part of the Panasonic group.

    Their "unique" smartphone equipment right now, is 640x360 screens with 680MHz ARM11 processors. There is nothing special about it. Its not something you expect in a modern flagship phone.

    WP7 marketing isn't bungled. Its the best and most financed of any launch so far. Microsoft blew half a billion into it. But it only shows you that marketing only goes so far, because generally, the customer perception towards Microsoft and Windows tends to be negative. You can thank Apple for that.

    If you go deep down, Symbian actually has strong OS fundamentals. It has a fantastic ability for multitasking. Symbian^3 has an excellent interface for it as well. WP7 is still Windows CE at the core.
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    Believe what you want, but the marketing was bungled. Not enough ad coverage and the ads did not focus on differentiators. Plus the "launch" was too slow in getting to market.

    Also, whether you want to believe it or not Nokia does bring things that no other smartphone maker does. And yes Symbian was an outdated sterile beast. And yes WP7 is a totally modern OS.

    Once one takes off the ABM FUD glasses the partnership makes sense.

    As to Android, it really does not impact Android much. This type of pairing of software and hardware is more Apple like, and is aimed more at iOS.
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