05-22-2012 04:36 AM
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  1. gruppe3942#AC's Avatar
    Is it really as bad as switching to tct causes the program you were using to close?
    05-16-2012 05:28 PM
  2. VickMackey#AC's Avatar
    I don't think you've dismissed anything, but the next valid questions are "why did HTC do this?" and "what impact does it have on the user?".

    It sounds like the answers seem to be "because sense takes up the majority of the 1gb of ram leaving too little for the stock settings to be able to work" and "some users are really frustrated by not being able to keep multiple apps open that older phones had no problems with".

    The answer is not the conclusion that I personally drew from Jerry's article which was 'it's a design choice by HTC (like color, or screen size), not a problem that needs correcting' (which I may have misinterpreted, but that's the feeling I got reading it).

    Not being able to multitask the browser along side another app is an issue that should be called out as a "con" and highlighted as a potential significant annoyance, not an aesthetic choice open for various subjective feedback on. That's a pretty big step backwards and not what one might expect from a flagship powerhouse of a phone and would certainly impact my buying decision if this affects the evo 4g lte as well.
    That makes perfect Sense, but the people that run this site seem to always choose to side with manufacturers/carriers over their readers in almost every case (unlimted data/carrier IQ) and now this. Nothing is ever a big deal. Users are always complaining and it's always buyer beware. It's quite pathetic actually. Jerry Hilderbrand makes poor arguments and backs them up by attacking his readers.
    05-18-2012 12:13 PM
  3. icebike's Avatar
    But you dodged the question Phil.

    We know you have both an international version HOX and the EvoLTE.
    Can't you just tell us if they both behave the same way?

    That way we can make informed decisions as to whether or not it is acceptable for each user.
    Is there still an embargo on this phone?
    05-18-2012 02:44 PM
  4. icebike's Avatar
    So basically, Phil and Jerry are saying "It's not broken, it's a feature." If we're going to spin it that way, then people aren't complaining that multitasking is broken... they're complaining that the phone has a DUMB feature and should be fixed.

    The way I see it, the phone's multitasking doesn't work, therefore IT'S BROKEN. If they are always closing apps when you switch, that isn't multitasking. The only things I've seen run properly in the background are apps that are seemingly designed to run properly in the background. But I should be able to switch from my game to the browser and back to the game. If I can't, multitasking is broken.

    If your customers all say the feature is broken and you say "no, no, see, that's how we designed it" do you really think they're going to get your next product? HTC needs to fix it if they expect people to want their next phone.

    Good points.

    And if HTC wines and dines Phil in Seattle, and he then rushes to their defense in the face of the huge outcry on his own forums, you have to ask if you will trust AC reviews in the future?

    Why isn't AC carrying our water to HTC on this issue instead of the other way around????

    We really don't care if HTC is fully within their right to tweak ICS in this way. That's not the issue here.
    Usability is the issue, and AC should be shouting this from the rooftops instead of running defense for HTC.

    Simply getting the news out there in enough forums will force HTC to fix this, or see their flagship phone crash and burn. The carriers will insist on better performance. But as long as Jerry is willing to fall on his sword for HTC's right to screw up the usability of the phone in favor of bling, why should HTC bother fixing it?
    05-18-2012 02:55 PM
  5. crs2265's Avatar
    Are we really that bored where we can attack and dismiss a device before we even get our hands on it and see exactly how it works for us? This multi tasking issue is not an issue until you actually use the device and it doesn't actually do what you want.

    I go back with HTC since Sprint had the PPC6700 years ago, that was my first smart phone and HTC showed me a new world. After that phone, i got my first touch screen and it was the Samsung Instinct and while i thought the touch features were cool, the phone was crap! cheap crap to be exact. Next up was the HTC Hero and my first Android phone... Wow! That thing in its day was amazing and again, HTC blew my mind. I was going to follow it with the EVO but my upgrade wasnt available till January so i waited and at the time the EVO Shift came out so i got that, it was impressive but after a couple months I realized i didnt need (or like for that matter) the keyboard and wanted the bigger screen of the OG EVO so i traded for it (cost me a bit but it was worth it). Again, the power and design of the HTC blew me away. Even with the few quirks and bugs, I kind of liked the Sense interface. After many months of use, i finally broke down rooted the phone and went with CyanogenMod 7 which was very impressive but I had mixed feelings and after screwing around with that for a month or two, i ended up back with a a Sense based mod. Lets just say, i missed a few features.

    Fast forward to this past January, Update time again for me and HTC (my Fav) released the EVO 3D which i just couldnt embrace enough to buy. The camera is important to me, i use it a lot and the 3D seemed too gimmicky for my tastes. I hated my last run in with Samsung and swore "Never" especially after all the ugliness of their Epic slider and its lack of Android updates (yes, i know, they eventually did get it) so the reputation was already tarnished in my head but I got talked into the Galaxy S II (Epic Tocuh 4G whatever) Truth is, i kind of like it but it's missing something... Feels like a cheap piece of crap, and Touchwiz is not nearly as fluid as Sense was. Don't get me wrong, the phone is fast, memory is everything i need, got my 32 gig SD card and replaced my iPod... I'm happy but i know it could be better...

    Those of us that know and buy HTC products, know we get a higher quality phone made of finer materials than whats else is out there. HTC only sells a fraction of what Samsung sells but most popular isn't always whats better. And if all else fails, we can root and make it work any way we want...

    So, here we have our new EVO, not in our hands yet, and our best alternative will be the forthcoming Galaxy S3 which will probably be like every other Samsung phone, a little faster than the last one but a cheap feeling plastic like phone. Hmmm... Think i'll hold out for the EVO, and watch and see how the Multitaking issue plays out for a while before rendering my judgement. It's gotta be better than some more cheap plastic crap....


    Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Epic Touch and Wiz wishing it was an EVO! God i can't wait till i give this to my kid phone....Jeez!
    05-18-2012 03:03 PM
  6. tohio's Avatar
    I originally posted this in the Pod Cast thread but thought it might apply here.
    ++++++

    And so it continues. OK, here's my premise: multitasking should allow a user to multitask. An OS that shuts down APPs that a user would like to return to or use while running other APPs (i.e. music) is flawed.

    Jerry can't seem to understand that the users aren't upset that HTC has modified Android for their own purposes. He seems to think that if only the users would understand that Sense is not pure Android all the complaining would go away. He couldn't be more mistaken. The affected users are upset that an operating system that they have used before has been modified (with no notification) in a way that makes it less useful and in some cases harmful (i.e loss of a document in progress). Any modification to an OS that makes multitasking not work as expected and wanted by the users is wrong. And please don't raise the canard of OPEN SOURCE. A company making a phone less desirable because they have a right to under open source has still made a phone that is less desirable. Jerry forgives them (who know why) because it is their right under open source to make multitasking a negative issues with some users.

    Cory had a very insightful comment. He asked if a modified ROM could address the multitasking issues and make it work like users wanted why didn't HTC do the same? Why indeed. Jerry said something to the effect that they probably did it to balance other features or OS needs. If so then they designed a poor OS that limits a feature that works well on other phones but not on theirs.

    A note to Jerry: the next time you want to defend a phone manufacturer why not try and do so in a less condescending manner. I think that is what some people found offensive in your article.
    VickMackey#AC likes this.
    05-18-2012 03:23 PM
  7. TenshiNo's Avatar
    From what I have read on the One X forum at XDA it is worse than just the browser. Going into text messages closes programs.

    For example: My wife plays Sudoku at lunch, if i text message her and she checks it, then she tries to continue her game, she will have to start over.
    If her Sudoku app "loses" her current game every time it closes, then it's not written properly. The Android framework has specific events and handlers designed to inform an app not only when it's going to "sleep", but also when it's about to be unloaded from memory. They even provide some simple objects for saving game state to disk so that it can be reloaded when the app re-opens. The problem you describe could happen on any phone, if there's enough things being done at once.

    I play Sudoku as well, and the app I use will keep my active game across device reboots. It's called "Sudoku Free" from Genina. I would recommend she check out that one.
    05-18-2012 04:10 PM
  8. kinster02's Avatar
    I think what htc has done works well for the average consumer and not the 5% hard core users because everyone I know don't multi task on their phones. Even when I show them what their phones are capable of they continue to open and close one app at a time. So maybe they are pleasing the majority and not the minority and they can give a rat's @ss about multi tasking.
    05-18-2012 04:29 PM
  9. icebike's Avatar
    If her Sudoku app "loses" her current game every time it closes, then it's not written properly. The Android framework has specific events and handlers designed to inform an app not only when it's going to "sleep", but also when it's about to be unloaded from memory.
    Do you have the HTC One or this EVOLTE?

    Because if you did, you wouldn't be chirping up with information about event handlers and informing apps. These apps aren't being notified, they are being summarily killed somehow.

    Using Firefox beta prevents a great deal of this, but anything that uses webkit is killing off apps.
    cloak.n.dagger likes this.
    05-18-2012 04:35 PM
  10. icebike's Avatar
    I think what htc has done works well for the average consumer and not the 5% hard core users because everyone I know don't multi task on their phones. Even when I show them what their phones are capable of they continue to open and close one app at a time. So maybe they are pleasing the majority and not the minority and they can give a rat's @ss about multi tasking.
    Ah, no.

    Maybe the first week a new android user wouldn't multitask, but even iPhone users are aware that they can answer an text message while typing an email or filling in a web form without losing stuff and having to start over, or be in the middle of a game and check the web, and expect the game to carry on.

    We are not talking about rocket science usage here. My non-techie wife does this without me having to show her how, and she expects it to work. Even her first cheesy captivate did this fine.
    cloak.n.dagger likes this.
    05-18-2012 04:52 PM
  11. shadowhawk2020's Avatar
    If her Sudoku app "loses" her current game every time it closes, then it's not written properly. The Android framework has specific events and handlers designed to inform an app not only when it's going to "sleep", but also when it's about to be unloaded from memory. They even provide some simple objects for saving game state to disk so that it can be reloaded when the app re-opens. The problem you describe could happen on any phone, if there's enough things being done at once.

    I play Sudoku as well, and the app I use will keep my active game across device reboots. It's called "Sudoku Free" from Genina. I would recommend she check out that one.
    Have you read this thread? It is exactly what is happening to people. They are in the middle of games/email/web browsing, switch over to another thing as simple as texting, and when they switch back they have to start all over. There is a MASSIVE thread on XDA forum about this.
    05-18-2012 06:56 PM
  12. svinyard's Avatar
    I'm at AC all day and I enjoy Phil and Jerry. I'm surprised they haven't helped us "Carry the water" with an open letter to HTC about this. I'm not pissed but I surely didn't expect them to support HTC on it. No hair on fire, just the facts Phil and Jerry....just the facts. The fact is this isn't best in class software design and we are disappointed. This is the place we go to talk about our phones. You are the experts who herald the cause of the people and report on all things Android.

    Lets just imagine a company made a phone that had great reception because it used a special uni-body design that aided the antenna. Now most people enjoyed that extra reception BUT it came at a price. If you grabbed the phone in a common way, it would lose reception. This was that companies preference and well within their rights to design this way. Would you support this manufacturer or call a spade a spade.

    This multi-tasking methodology might be the manuf. choice and not a bit deal for some people but for Android users expecting top-notch performance and usability, its a step backward. Please recognize this Phil and Jerry and move on with your credibility in-tact.
    05-18-2012 07:56 PM
  13. Impulses's Avatar
    And in light of the Customs fiasco that's just been announced... I rest my case about manufacturer modifications.
    That had nothing to do with manufacturer mods, Apple won the case against HTC but they could/might get every other manufacturer for it too, since the behavior in question is actually stock Android's default.
    05-19-2012 02:38 AM
  14. neoenigma's Avatar
    A note to Jerry: the next time you want to defend a phone manufacturer why not try and do so in a less condescending manner. I think that is what some people found offensive in your article.
    Not only was the article condescending, but so were his comments. They went on to say the exact same story on their podcast. The only person who had the right idea was Cory. I just can not understand Phil and Jerry's attitude on this topic.

    It's too late for me to send this phone back. It's not too late to warn everyone I know to stay away from it though. The ball is in HTC's court to fix it... otherwise I think they're going to lose customers.
    05-21-2012 09:55 AM
  15. jaescott's Avatar
    Has anyone used the evo and confirmed you can't multitask? I can not believe HTC would be that stupid to take away the base of a smartphone.
    05-21-2012 11:32 AM
  16. p2cactus's Avatar
    So I think the question is....Is 1 GB of ram becoming a number of the past? Are we now at a point in our cell phones that we need more than 1 GB of ram and if so should we suck a 2 year agreement for this device with it only having 1 GB of ram.
    This is the answer. These phones with significant third party customizations need more memory. Force closing background tasks is exactly what is happening, and that's classically what you do on Android to fee up memory. Otherwise the launcher gets crunchy or keeps dying, which is also super annoying on a brand new phone.

    This is a design flaw in the current crop of high end phones, and I worry they will age very poorly because the demands are not going to decrease.

    Sent from my PC36100 using Android Central Forums
    05-21-2012 11:43 AM
  17. rexxman's Avatar
    I little would go a long way on AC's part. And the subject is very simple. The review did not cover, or discover, this issue. If AC would just use this as an example and assure readers that in the future, the basic functions of devices would be tested and reported, we can all move beyond this discussion. And we get better reviews in the process.

    If AC refuses to understand and correct this, continues to respond inappropriately to the criticism, then we are guaranteed this will happen again. Not good for AC, not good for the readers.

    Do the right thing AC. It is more then simple, It is professional!
    icebike and G3TCASHM0N3Y like this.
    05-21-2012 12:28 PM
  18. Crispy's Avatar
    If her Sudoku app "loses" her current game every time it closes, then it's not written properly. The Android framework has specific events and handlers designed to inform an app not only when it's going to "sleep", but also when it's about to be unloaded from memory. They even provide some simple objects for saving game state to disk so that it can be reloaded when the app re-opens. The problem you describe could happen on any phone, if there's enough things being done at once.

    I play Sudoku as well, and the app I use will keep my active game across device reboots. It's called "Sudoku Free" from Genina. I would recommend she check out that one.
    I have highlighted the problem. There is no possible reason the OS would need to kick an app out of memory unless it really was low on memory. The problem is Sense 4 is very aggressive and always does this. This is totally wrong.

    Phones with half the memory are able to keep multiple tasks running in memory and then you can switch between them easily. The problem is the OS (i.e. HTC's changes), not the apps.
    05-21-2012 03:57 PM
  19. Crispy's Avatar
    What really makes this worse is a lot of Android apps are not written well - they don't save/restore state or listen to power events as well as iOS/WP7 apps do. Simply because they never expected to, and also Android devs have a much harder time since they have to code for multiple targets due to the fragmentation.
    05-21-2012 04:09 PM
  20. icebike's Avatar
    What really makes this worse is a lot of Android apps are not written well - they don't save/restore state or listen to power events as well as iOS/WP7 apps do. Simply because they never expected to, and also Android devs have a much harder time since they have to code for multiple targets due to the fragmentation.
    But when we see the SAME apps reloading on one phone and not on another with similar hardware, and similar use patterns, it's hard to blame the app developer.



    Sent from my HOX
    05-21-2012 05:27 PM
  21. cloak.n.dagger's Avatar
    Can anyone confirm how many apps need to be open before this kind of background killing takes place? When I watch the you tube video where the guy has the E4GLTE next to another phone and is switching between apps side-by-side, it looks like there are more apps open on the E4GLTE than the other phone. I would like to know if this is something that occurs when 10+ or 15+ apps are open in the background or if this happens when just two apps are open. How many apps does it take to run out of 1GB of memory in Sense 4.0?

    If we are talking 10+ apps, then we may be making this a bigger deal then it really is. If we are talking about switching between just two open apps (nothing else app wise in the background) then people have a right to be hot about this.
    jaescott likes this.
    05-21-2012 05:30 PM
  22. Saneless's Avatar
    Sense used to run out of memory at times and would "Reload" - often taking 5 seconds to fire up. HTC wrote it so their launcher would never do that again, and make sure that it killed off everything else.

    Unfortunately, they're just developers and they probably didn't test it well enough and we get the final product. I hope this gets fixed with an update.

    BTW, if Ford or Toyota "customized" the car so that when you stopped at a light it shut off, and had to restart it again everytime it turned green.. technically it's working as designed, but that doesn't mean it's not a dumb *** thing to do to customers.
    05-21-2012 05:34 PM
  23. Caleb Morris's Avatar
    Hey Phil, I know this thread is about the "broken" multitasking, but I am fairly sure that none of us have actually played with it. So in your experience with the phone so far, how is the multitasking holding up for you? Any problems these posters are having? If you can't say, then can you please have a special section in your review for it when you release it?
    05-21-2012 06:02 PM
  24. cd36's Avatar

    BTW, if Ford or Toyota "customized" the car so that when you stopped at a light it shut off, and had to restart it again everytime it turned green.. technically it's working as designed, but that doesn't mean it's not a dumb *** thing to do to customers.
    Bad example as start stop systems are used in vehicles successfully and can be a big improvement in mpg.

    This is more like sizing the electrical system in a car to low so that whenever you roll down the window you have to turn off the radio and once the window is down you have to turn the radio back on.

    Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2
    05-21-2012 06:02 PM
  25. Saneless's Avatar
    Fair enough, but you get the idea. It's a choice that doesn't benefit the consumer at all, it just makes their bloated launcher come up quicker.

    How many times have people on this site ragged on bad decisions, yet you have 2 MAJOR faults from HTC and they're closed over.

    Multitasking doesn't work. Second, the One X doesn't have enough usable space
    05-21-2012 08:15 PM
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