Camera how good is it.....really?

madlaw1071

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Because I am into photography and because it is common sense. Why would you even want to argue about this? I don't understand your motivation. Regarding sales figures, are you just going to say becuase S4 sales more than HTC that people don't value low light capability? That would obviously be a flawed approach.

What's common sense to you and me might not be common sense to everyone. People use their camera phones for many reasons including but not limited to low light situations. I live in FL where it's sunny and bright(except today) almost all the time. Well lit pictures are what I take most often. I don't go to clubs or a lot of night time parties(like HTC features in their ads) so low light performance isnt as important. HOWEVER, I am fortunate to own both phones and can have the best of both worlds.
 

Kevin OQuinn

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This was taken with my original HTC EVO in 2010 in low light conditions outdoors
Yall are debating over spilled milk. What people have and have been trying to imply is that this camera is not leaps and bounds of not only last years phones but the original EVO.
The software is the only significant innovation here point blank
http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/47376_690199607682_6345187_n.jpg

That actually looks like a really well lit picture. Just because the crowd is not lit well doesn't mean it qualifies as a low light picture.

"The software is the only significant innovation here point blank" is factually wrong. You don't have to be impressed for something to be good. Nor do you have to try and discredit a device because of it.

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Kevin OQuinn

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What's common sense to you and me might not be common sense to everyone. People use their camera phones for many reasons including but not limited to low light situations. I live in FL where it's sunny and bright(except today) almost all the time. Well lit pictures are what I take most often. I don't go to clubs or a lot of night time parties(like HTC features in their ads) so low light performance isnt as important. HOWEVER, I am fortunate to own both phones and can have the best of both worlds.

You still have night time and indoors in Florida right? ;)

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SCjRqrQCnBQ19QoYCtdl

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Bingo the next phone will definitely be at least 8MP. lets not act like HTC hasn't taken a gamble that failed in the past. Example: 3D
Aside from the camera, this is still a great phone which is why i am happy to own it. But i refuse to be blind to the obvious

If they make a 8mp ultrapixel camera, they will require a larger sensor, larger lens, more room between lens and sensor and therefore a thicker area to fit all that.

Or they could make an 6-8mp camera with smaller pixels on the same size sensor, which wouldn't be ultrapixels as they are termed now. This may result in a better compromise between low light and good light.

Or, ideally they could make a larger mp sensor in a square format. They could get a 7.2mp square sensor in the same image circle using same lens as the current 4.1mp sensor. This would get you 5.4mp in 4:3 format vs 3.1mp currently in 4:3 format. Wouldn't help 16:9 resolution.

In any case, more pixels equal larger files, equals slower processing, equals less responsive.
 

dre22era

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That actually looks like a really well lit picture. Just because the crowd is not lit well doesn't mean it qualifies as a low light picture.

"The software is the only significant innovation here point blank" is factually wrong. You don't have to be impressed for something to be good. Nor do you have to try and discredit a device because of it.

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I will be sure to come back to this thread after the EVO 4G LTE gets Zoe in the update.

- - - Updated - - -

You still have night time and indoors in Florida right? ;)

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so whats the purpose of having flash then. lol smh
 

dre22era

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If they make a 8mp ultrapixel camera, they will require a larger sensor, larger lens, more room between lens and sensor and therefore a thicker area to fit all that.

Or they could make an 6-8mp camera with smaller pixels on the same size sensor, which wouldn't be ultrapixels as they are termed now. This may result in a better compromise between low light and good light.

Or, ideally they could make a larger mp sensor in a square format. They could get a 7.2mp square sensor in the same image circle using same lens as the current 4.1mp sensor. This would get you 5.4mp in 4:3 format vs 3.1mp currently in 4:3 format. Wouldn't help 16:9 resolution.

In any case, more pixels equal larger files, equals slower processing, equals less responsive.
I highly doubt ultrapixel will be further future innovation. i believe come next year it will be a joke like 3D
especially after the rumored production issues
 

Kevin OQuinn

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I highly doubt ultrapixel will be further future innovation. i believe come next year it will be a joke like 3D
especially after the rumored production issues

Those rumors are old. Production has been doubled.

I still think you're kind of missing the point and are just getting stuck on the marketing term and not focusing on the tech behind it. It's not NEW tech (for cameras in general), obviously, but they did it for a reason.

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warpdrive

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No doubt it's a marketing term. But it DOES describe something. The physical size of the pixels are bigger allowing it to capture more light in less time.

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Maybe there will be a day when we use just one pixel to take a photo, but that day is not today. Instead we use all the pixels collectively. Thus a 4 mp or "ultra pixels" still doesn't collect any more light then say an 8mp censor of the same size.

Example: lets say each ultra pixel captures 4 photons. At 4 million pixels, this collects 16 million photons.
An 8mp censor of the same size collects half the photons per pixel, but had twice as many, so it too collects 16 million photons. With the same amount of collection of photons, you can't say that ultra pixels do anything to help with low light.

It is because of the f2 lens, optical image stability, and the fact that HTC changed the software to always capture an image using a higher iso when used on auto as compared to other cameras and phones. This is why many out door photos have more noise in them on the HTC One them on other phones.

This my dear Kevin is why listing exposures on camera reviews are important. Just look at any review that does list exposures like Anandtech and you'll find that ultra pixels was not the reason why the phone captured more light.... it was the software that was the reason.

Edit: it's almost add if HTC switched the night mode and auto mode. As in auto it goes up to iso2000 at least, but on night mode it only goed up to about iso800 like on normal cellphones.

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dre22era

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Those rumors are old. Production has been doubled.

I still think you're kind of missing the point and are just getting stuck on the marketing term and not focusing on the tech behind it. It's not NEW tech (for cameras in general), obviously, but they did it for a reason.

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I am doing the exact opposite focusing on the tech side and ignoring the marketing BS.
Rumors are old? the rumors were factual. Production is fine now but it did indeed affect the launch.
For the 2nd straight year HTC didn't have a legit launch. Apple messed up their launch of the EVO 4G LTE last year.
This is what I have been saying from day 1 looking at this from a tech perspective
HTC One "Ultrapixel": Explained! - YouTube
 

Kevin OQuinn

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Maybe there will be a day when we use just one pixel to take a photo, but that day is not today. Instead we use all the pixels collectively. Thus a 4 mp or "ultra pixels" still doesn't collect any more light then say an 8mp censor of the same size.

Example: lets say each ultra pixel captures 4 photons. At 4 million pixels, this collects 16 million photons.
An 8mp censor of the same size collects half the photons per pixel, but had twice as many, so it too collects 16 million photons. With the same amount of collection of photons, you can't say that ultra pixels do anything to help with low light.

It is because of the f2 lens, optical image stability, and the fact that HTC changed the software to always capture an image using a higher iso when used on auto as compared to other cameras and phones. This is why many out door photos have more noise in them on the HTC One them on other phones.

This my dear Kevin is why listing exposures on camera reviews are important. Just look at any review that does list exposures like Anandtech and you'll find that ultra pixels was not the reason why the phone captured more light.... it was the software that was the reason.

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Each pixel also has half the light to work with (just being general here). Unless they combine the information of two pixels to effectively become one it doesn't matter. If you capture an 8mp image with half the light and keep the resolution the same (8mp output) the result will be worse low light performance.

Reference the shoot out Alex did. Clearly it's not just software magically inserting extra light into the image. :)

Also, I'm not a photography expert, but the results speak for themselves. Daylight pictures = S4. Low light/nighttime pictures = One. Everywhere. Seems to be the only thing that's unanimously agreed upon by reviewers across the Internet.

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SCjRqrQCnBQ19QoYCtdl

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I highly doubt ultrapixel will be further future innovation. i believe come next year it will be a joke like 3D
especially after the rumored production issues

I don't think it will be a joke. It is actually quite effective. Ultra pixel or not, I think that it is more likely that continued increases in mp counts are less likely than larger pixels. The race for high end for compact cameras has been on larger sensors. They have been able to cram larger and larger sensors into smaller cameras, including the full frame sensor on the RX1.

At some point craming more pixels on the same size sensor becomes self defeating, and that line may already have been crossed at 13mp. I certainly don't want to deal with the files from 13mp camera on my phone, particularly when considering the number of shots from zoes and burst mode.

I think HTC made the right decision on lower pixels, better low light, faster camera. Whether the balance was optimal at 4mp is up for debate.

I don't think they made the right call on the sensor format (16:9) and a 5.4mp 4:3 format would have been preferred, or even better if they could have gotten a 6mp 4:3 sensor with big pixels in there.
 

warpdrive

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Each pixel also has half the light to work with (just being general here). Unless they combine the information of two pixels to effectively become one it doesn't matter. If you capture an 8mp image with half the light and keep the resolution the same (8mp output) the result will be worse low light performance.

Reference the shoot out Alex did. Clearly it's not just software magically inserting extra light into the image. :)

Also, I'm not a photography expert, but the results speak for themselves. Daylight pictures = S4. Low light/nighttime pictures = One. Everywhere. Seems to be the only thing that's unanimously agreed upon by reviewers across the Internet.

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No, when taking a photo all the pixels ate used to create an image collectively. So yes, the 8mp censor has twice the pixels that capture half the light per pixel...but collectively it adds up to the same about of light.

And I agree with the reviewers. Just not on why the HTC One wins. If the facts that it is the software and NOT the size of the pixels that does it for the HTC One disturbs you, I fully understand. After all, everyone has been hoodwinked by the BS marketing that htc implied.

You wanted to talk facts, so let's talk about facts.

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SCjRqrQCnBQ19QoYCtdl

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No, when taking a photo all the pixels ate used to create an image collectively. So yes, the 8mp censor has twice the pixels that capture half the light per pixel...but collectively it adds up to the same about of light.

And I agree with the reviewers. Just not on why the HTC One wins. If the facts that it is the software and NOT the size of the pixels that does it for the HTC One disturbs you, I fully understand. After all, everyone has been hoodwinked by the BS marketing that htc implied.

You wanted to talk facts, so let's talk about facts.

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Facts are that larger pixels allow great signal to noise ratio. Are you arguing that pixel size is of no consequence?
 

madlaw1071

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We should all be able to agree that each camera has it's strengths and weaknesses and we could argue them till we are collectively blue in the face. Most consumers will have no issue with either camera, but it's great fodder for forums on tech sites.

To me it's far more interesting to see if the gamble pays off for HTC since they have little margin of error when it comes to marketing and sales of the One. IMO, if HTC was going to deviate from the MP race they should have made sure there was no argument that UltraPixel was better than the competition in all situations. There are many reviews that show it behind last year's flagships when it comes to routine well-lit outdoor shots.
 

warpdrive

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Facts are that larger pixels allow great signal to noise ratio. Are you arguing that pixel size is of no consequence?

Allow for greater or better signal to noise ratio? Yes I agree.

I'm arguing that larger pixels when taking a photo and thus used collectively, doesn't help at all with taking pics in low light. As has been proven on many websites, including Anandtech.

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