Camera how good is it.....really?

dre22era

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We live in a "Big Is Better" society which is why our TV Screens continue to get bigger in size and resolution quality continues to improve.
Thats what consumers want and merchandisers will continue to give it to them
This is no different when it comes to cell phone cameras.
The new soon to be released Nokia EOS is rumored to have a 41MP Sensor.
What does that tell you
 

Kevin OQuinn

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Allow for greater or better signal to noise ratio? Yes I agree.

I'm arguing that larger pixels when taking a photo and thus used collectively, doesn't help at all with taking pics in low light. As has been proven on many websites, including Anandtech.

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Then explain why Samsung can't compete in low light situations. I'm curious.

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Kevin OQuinn

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We should all be able to agree that each camera has it's strengths and weaknesses and we could argue them till we are collectively blue in the face. Most consumers will have no issue with either camera, but it's great fodder for forums on tech sites.

To me it's far more interesting to see if the gamble pays off for HTC since they have little margin of error when it comes to marketing and sales of the One. IMO, if HTC was going to deviate from the MP race they should have made sure there was no argument that UltraPixel was better than the competition in all situations. There are many reviews that show it behind last year's flagships when it comes to routine well-lit outdoor shots.

Wait, when did you become the voice of reason around here? :p

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SCjRqrQCnBQ19QoYCtdl

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Allow for greater or better signal to noise ratio? Yes I agree.

I'm arguing that larger pixels when taking a photo and thus used collectively, doesn't help at all with taking pics in low light. As has been proven on many websites, including Anandtech.

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With greater signal to noise ratio, you need less signal (light) to get a comparable outcome.
 

warpdrive

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With greater signal to noise ratio, you need less signal (light) to get a comparable outcome.

If what you mean by comparable outcome is amount of noise, then I agree. If it is amount of light, then I humbly disagree.

Again, do the math. Collectively, a 4mp censor collects no more light then an 8mp censor of the same size.

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warpdrive

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Then explain why Samsung can't compete in low light situations. I'm curious.

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I can't and wont. In fact I've never said samsung can't compete in low light situations. That is your job, not mine. So go on, explain why? I'd love to hear it.

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madlaw1071

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Then explain why Samsung can't compete in low light situations. I'm curious.

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The S4 most certainly "competes" in low light situations and is capable of producing better low light shots than the One. HOWEVER, on average the One will produce more consistent low light results than the S4.

From the excellent GSMArena comparison:

Winner: Samsung Galaxy S4. Surprisingly, the Samsung Galaxy S4 has the better low-light camera performance. You'll have to snap several photos to make sure you have a good one, but the end result will be better than what the HTC One produces. The Galaxy S4 has a slight advantage in low-light video too.
The HTC One is more reliable - thanks to its OIS you can snap just one photo and know it will be about as good as it gets. But the camera's performance is simply nothing to write home about, and there are cases when OIS just isn't helping at all (when shooting moving subjects)."
 

warpdrive

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The S4 most certainly "competes" in low light situations and is capable of producing better low light shots than the One. HOWEVER, on average the One will produce more consistent low light results than the S4.

From the excellent GSMArena comparison:

Winner: Samsung Galaxy S4. Surprisingly, the Samsung Galaxy S4 has the better low-light camera performance. You'll have to snap several photos to make sure you have a good one, but the end result will be better than what the HTC One produces. The Galaxy S4 has a slight advantage in low-light video too.
The HTC One is more reliable - thanks to its OIS you can snap just one photo and know it will be about as good as it gets. But the camera's performance is simply nothing to write home about, and there are cases when OIS just isn't helping at all (when shooting moving subjects)."

Forget it madlaw, even the AC review doesn't trash the S4 in low light. But Kevin will never understand this. It goes against the whole marketing statement that ultra pixel technology is the reason for great low light shots...yet the real reason is something far better, the software that shoots at a constant higher iso value.

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Kevin OQuinn

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The S4 most certainly "competes" in low light situations and is capable of producing better low light shots than the One. HOWEVER, on average the One will produce more consistent low light results than the S4.

That's what I was saying. Or trying to. I shouldn't have to put a whole lot of effort into getting a good shot. Keep the One on auto and shoot away has been my experience. Good job quoting the one place that thinks the S4 is superior in low light. ;) Just like the One isn't terrible in daylight situations, the S4 isn't terrible at low light. They just aren't as good as each other in the areas where they are particularly strong. <----I hope I typed that in a way that makes sense. :)

@warpdrive I guess I can't ask an honest question about something and expect a real answer from someone that seems to have some knowledge on the subject. You seem to think that software is everything, which is fine, but even I'll admit that the Samsung camera app is superior, and obviously so are the post processing algorithms or the low light performance wouldn't be what it is. By your logic Samsung should dominate camera performance all around since they can capture the same amount of light AND have superior software. But they don't. I seriously want to know why. If you can't explain it further then say so. I can probably find out in my own, but thought others might benefit from your knowledge.

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SCjRqrQCnBQ19QoYCtdl

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If what you mean by comparable outcome is amount of noise, then I agree. If it is amount of light, then I humbly disagree.

No, larger pixels don't create light somehow, I don't think anyone is saying that. They just make better use of the light that is hitting the sensor. They are more sensitive to light and allow the sensor to perform better with regard to light at a given ISO. So, while you may see that a well lit shot has an equivalent ISO between an S4 and the HTC, the HTC has less gain applied to the sensor to achieve that ISO and therefore less noise.

Above you stated "I'm arguing that larger pixels when taking a photo and thus used collectively, doesn't help at all with taking pics in low light. As has been proven on many websites, including Anandtech."

I think this is clearly wrong.

You referred to Anandtech -

Anandtech:

"Other downsides to smaller pixels are again a loss of sensitivity, partially from having a smaller integration area, partially from other things like the smaller active region for the sensor and a change in drive voltage."

And with regard to "Ultrapixels":

"The result is, like anything else, a tradeoff but in the other direction - improved low light sensitivity and dynamic range at the expense of spatial resolution."

So according to Anandtech, smaller pixels are less sensitive. Larger pixels provide improved low light sensitivity and dynamic range. (However, I don't think the dynamic range has been delivered - or if it has, then the dynamic range of the 13mp cameras must be terrible. I am hopeful that tweaking the software will deliver on the dynamic range front.)

That's what I was saying. Or trying to. I shouldn't have to put a whole lot of effort into getting a good shot. Keep the One on auto and shoot away has been my experience. Good job quoting the one place that thinks the S4 is superior in low light. ;) Just like the One isn't terrible in daylight situations, the S4 isn't terrible at low light. They just aren't as good as each other in the areas where they are particularly strong. <----I hope I typed that in a way that makes sense. :)

@warpdrive I guess I can't ask an honest question about something and expect a real answer from someone that seems to have some knowledge on the subject. You seem to think that software is everything, which is fine, but even I'll admit that the Samsung camera app is superior, and obviously so are the post processing algorithms or the low light performance wouldn't be what it is. By your logic Samsung should dominate camera performance all around since they can capture the same amount of light AND have superior software. But they don't. I seriously want to know why. If you can't explain it further then say so. I can probably find out in my own, but thought others might benefit from your knowledge.

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Larger pixels are more sensitive to light and have a higher signal to noise ratio, which definately helps in low light, ceteris paribus. To say otherwise is just wrong. If you want to claim that the One is not superior in low light you have to go after other factors such as the quality of the sensor itself. In other words, the sensor may have a crappy analogue to digital coverter or something. But arguing that larger pixels don't help in low light is just contrary to fact.
 

SCjRqrQCnBQ19QoYCtdl

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The S4 most certainly "competes" in low light situations and is capable of producing better low light shots than the One. HOWEVER, on average the One will produce more consistent low light results than the S4.

From the excellent GSMArena comparison:

Winner: Samsung Galaxy S4. Surprisingly, the Samsung Galaxy S4 has the better low-light camera performance. You'll have to snap several photos to make sure you have a good one, but the end result will be better than what the HTC One produces. The Galaxy S4 has a slight advantage in low-light video too.
The HTC One is more reliable - thanks to its OIS you can snap just one photo and know it will be about as good as it gets. But the camera's performance is simply nothing to write home about, and there are cases when OIS just isn't helping at all (when shooting moving subjects)."

I already put the challenge to you much earlier - post a hand held shot of people from the s4 at ISO 2000 1/17 sec. Let's compare how they do. Quoting reviews like this is really pointless. What matters is what you can produce vs. what I produce from the One.
 

madlaw1071

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That's what I was saying. Or trying to. I shouldn't have to put a whole lot of effort into getting a good shot. Keep the One on auto and shoot away has been my experience. Good job quoting the one place that thinks the S4 is superior in low light. ;) Just like the One isn't terrible in daylight situations, the S4 isn't terrible at low light. They just aren't as good as each other in the areas where they are particularly strong. <----I hope I typed that in a way that makes sense. :)

@warpdrive I guess I can't ask an honest question about something and expect a real answer from someone that seems to have some knowledge on the subject. You seem to think that software is everything, which is fine, but even I'll admit that the Samsung camera app is superior, and obviously so are the post processing algorithms or the low light performance wouldn't be what it is. By your logic Samsung should dominate camera performance all around since they can capture the same amount of light AND have superior software. But they don't. I seriously want to know why. If you can't explain it further then say so. I can probably find out in my own, but thought others might benefit from your knowledge.

Posted via Android Central App

Actually both GSMArena AND PhoneArena give the S4 the low light nod.
 

Admorris

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I have a Canon 40D dslr for my photo needs, but use my phone quite often for quick pics. Anyway, I was at my sister in laws wedding recently and was snapping pics with both, and the best pic I took all weekend ended up being with my phone...lol

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2
 

Bobbman

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I can't take seriously any review that upscales a photo to compare to a native resolution from another camera.

Might be safe to say though (looking at reviews and both phones threads) that the gap between the lowlight quality between the S4 and One (HTC One being somewhat better) is smaller than the gap between the daytime shots (S4 being much, much better)
 

warpdrive

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That's what I was saying. Or trying to. I shouldn't have to put a whole lot of effort into getting a good shot. Keep the One on auto and shoot away has been my experience. Good job quoting the one place that thinks the S4 is superior in low light. ;) Just like the One isn't terrible in daylight situations, the S4 isn't terrible at low light. They just aren't as good as each other in the areas where they are particularly strong. <----I hope I typed that in a way that makes sense. :)

@warpdrive I guess I can't ask an honest question about something and expect a real answer from someone that seems to have some knowledge on the subject. You seem to think that software is everything, which is fine, but even I'll admit that the Samsung camera app is superior, and obviously so are the post processing algorithms or the low light performance wouldn't be what it is. By your logic Samsung should dominate camera performance all around since they can capture the same amount of light AND have superior software. But they don't. I seriously want to know why. If you can't explain it further then say so. I can probably find out in my own, but thought others might benefit from your knowledge.

Posted via Android Central App

Ah, it's not that you can't ask an honesty question, it's just that now your question has changed. Let me explain.

There are a few reasons why the HTC One can take fantastic low light shots. The first is the f2 lens. It let's in a quarter of an f-stop more light then the Samsung S4 (or 3/4 of an f-stop more then the S3). The next thing is the optical image stability. At slow exposures, this will help with camera shake.

Now I'm not saying that a 4mp censor is not good or helpful in low light, just that it doesn't help in any way to capture more light then say an 8mp censor of the same size.
Clearly we agree that the 8mp censor has 100% more resolution to work with when we talk about capturing detail.
I'm also sure we can agree that on paper, a lower pixel count censor like on the HTC One "should" capture far more dynamic range (think detail in the shadows and highlights). Sadly, due to poor software, highlights (and sometimes shadows) are blown out in reality.

But is it only the f2 lens and optical image stability that helps? No. But ultra pixel technology is not it as well. So what is it that does help?
I personally think what helps the most is that htc switched the auto and night modes to make night mode its default auto mode (and the original night mode does in fact shoot at a higher then normal iso by default). So, under htc's now new auto mode, it shoots by default at a higher iso then any other cell phone. A nice trick, in fact perfect for what most like myself would want from a cellphone regardless of pixel density. This is why even in daylight, the HTC One will shoot at a higher then normal iso as compared to a typical phone. Say iso200 as compared to iso100. This is also why in daylight the htc one also had more noise then other phones in daylight pics.

As for Samsung, if anything they can do the same if they wanted with thier software. It doesn't take much to make the software shoot at a higher iso level.

One more thing, please don't talk about my logic or anything else I didn't say. You are sounding confrontational like in the past and it isn't helping you. If you want to talk facts, then let's do just that.

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Wullie32

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For anyone coming from a Galaxy S2, how does the One compare in daylight? We'll take it as read that it's better in low light.
 

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