LG V20 - DAC Problem?

[mlknez]

Let's face it. The primary reason that people are going to buy this phone is because it has the equivalent of a $300 external DAC/Amp built into it. LG has done advertising for months touting the ES9218 "Quad" DAC that they included. The only problem is that they include NO WAY TO USE IT!! The phones API only exposes the ES9218 DAC as a PCM 48Khz capable device. That means that the built in Qualcomm DAC that is worth about thirty cents is about as good. Here is proof from the developer of NeutronMP...

According your logs (Thank you for making them!) OS declares only one
(!!!) frequency - 48000 kHz. You can see it in logs:

[13:08:16] I <SFX>| enum: device 0
[13:08:16] I <SFX>| enum: id = 1
[13:08:16] I <SFX>| enum: type = 1
[13:08:16] I <SFX>| enum: name = LG-LS997
[13:08:16] I <SFX>| enum: is sink = 1
[13:08:16] I <SFX>| enum: is source = 0
[13:08:16] I <SFX>| enum: channels [1]:
[13:08:16] I <SFX>| - 1
[13:08:16] I <SFX>| enum: sample rates [1]:
[13:08:16] I <SFX>| - 48000
[13:08:16] I <SFX>| enum: sample types [1]:
[13:08:16] I <SFX>| - 2

It means firmware does not expose Hi-Fi DAC via this new API. Why LG can not make it and expose DAC and solve the problem with using full potential of the device - puzzle. Neutron would use it automatically if DAC is exposed by the firmware.

I have contacted both LG and Sprint and neither support staff is willing to escalate. We need to demand action as a group as this is the PRIMARY unique feature of this particular smartphone.

 

[kraze4u]

Re: Serious V20 Problem!!

No way, really? The hifi audio dac is a big selling point for me.

 

[ansa82]

Re: Serious V20 Problem!!

Let's face it. The primary reason that people are going to buy this phone is because it has the equivalent of a $300 external DAC/Amp built into it. LG has done advertising for months touting the ES9218 "Quad" DAC that they included. The only problem is that they include NO WAY TO USE IT!! The phones API only exposes the ES9218 DAC as a PCM 48Khz capable device. That means that the built in Qualcomm DAC that is worth about thirty cents is about as good. Here is proof from the developer of NeutronMP...

According your logs (Thank you for making them!) OS declares only one
(!!!) frequency - 48000 kHz. You can see it in logs:

[13:08:16] I <SFX>| enum: device 0
[13:08:16] I <SFX>| enum: id = 1
[13:08:16] I <SFX>| enum: type = 1
[13:08:16] I <SFX>| enum: name = LG-LS997
[13:08:16] I <SFX>| enum: is sink = 1
[13:08:16] I <SFX>| enum: is source = 0
[13:08:16] I <SFX>| enum: channels [1]:
[13:08:16] I <SFX>| - 1
[13:08:16] I <SFX>| enum: sample rates [1]:
[13:08:16] I <SFX>| - 48000
[13:08:16] I <SFX>| enum: sample types [1]:
[13:08:16] I <SFX>| - 2

It means firmware does not expose Hi-Fi DAC via this new API. Why LG can not make it and expose DAC and solve the problem with using full potential of the device - puzzle. Neutron would use it automatically if DAC is exposed by the firmware.

I have contacted both LG and Sprint and neither support staff is willing to escalate. We need to demand action as a group as this is the PRIMARY unique feature of this particular smartphone.

I have no idea what all of that is about, you went way over my head. All I can say is that when I plug in my headphones and turn it on, it sounds AWESOME lol

 

[aknotts66]

Re: Serious V20 Problem!!

Are you sure that the phone doesnt just display it like that until the hi-fi dac toggle is toggled on?

 

[NWiatrak]

Re: Serious V20 Problem!!

I'm not an audiophile by any stretch of the imagination, so forgive me if this is completely wrong. But I've been hearing murmurs around the forums that the DAC in the V20 has a thing where it ups the output based on the quality of headphones plugged into it (impedence or something). Do you think that perhaps the 48KHz you measured was due to the device measuring it not "reporting" that it could handle the higher quality audio or something?

 

[Jeremiah Bonds]

Re: Serious V20 Problem!!

Is there a way to get a log with the HiDac toggled on?

 

[Mooncatt]

Re: Serious V20 Problem!!

I'm not an audiophile by any stretch of the imagination, so forgive me if this is completely wrong. But I've been hearing murmurs around the forums that the DAC in the V20 has a thing where it ups the output based on the quality of headphones plugged into it (impedence or something). Do you think that perhaps the 48KHz you measured was due to the device measuring it not "reporting" that it could handle the higher quality audio or something?

This is what I'm understanding, that the port is what triggers the various DAC modes based on what is plugged in. I'm not sure, but I don't think you can kick it into high gear with the built in speaker. That's a set device and the DAC would already be tuned for that.

 

[SupraLB]

Re: Serious V20 Problem!!

Man, I see that subject title and expected to see someones phone on fire. And we get this? This phone sounds amazing with my headphones. I'm out.

 

[subguy812]

Re: Serious V20 Problem!!

The sky is not falling as the topic might indicate. The dac is only utilized through the headphone jack. Depending on the impedance of the headphones plugged in depends on whether it is normal, regular or high impedance that is utilized.

I think Neutron's software bypasses the hardware dac. The 64bit software processing refers to software and the option to select 32bit output refers to how the audio is transferred to the device. I like Neutron but not sure it utilizes the Snapdragon processor.

Poweramp has an Alpha that utilizes the Snapdragon. Alpha 4 is the one that utilizes the Snapdragon. It is an Alpha and is not the most stable but the sound is definitely an improvement.

The dac is awesome and can be tricked to utilize the higher powered option. I have and have had many high priced day's and dad's and the V20 ranks right up there.

 

[Mike Dee]

Re: Serious V20 Problem!!

People shouldn't post stuff like this unless they are certain that what they are saying holds creedence.

 

[BB_Bmore]

Re: Serious V20 Problem!!

Every review I've seen seems to praise the dac as "the real deal" "not a gimmick" now I currently don't have a nice pair of headphones to see for myself but when I plug in a standard pair it says a normal audio device is connected. It automatically determines what's plugged in. So I imagine it's not going to utilize hardware in the phone for hardware that's not compatible... Maybe? I'm wondering if I plugged in something that could really take advantage of the DAC if it would make a difference. Maybe even a different message appears aside from the "normal audio device" I get with some low end headphones.

Regardless I have to go with what every single review I've seen has said about the DAC. I guess I'll get to see for myself when my headphones arrive. Either way the phone is a beast and I'm definitely keeping it.

 

[Mike Dee]

The sky is not falling as the topic might indicate. The dac is only utilized through the headphone jack. Depending on the impedance of the headphones plugged in depends on whether it is normal, regular or high impedance that is utilized.

I think Neutron's software bypasses the hardware dac. The 64bit software processing refers to software and the option to select 32bit output refers to how the audio is transferred to the device. I like Neutron but not sure it utilizes the Snapdragon processor.

Poweramp has an Alpha that utilizes the Snapdragon. Alpha 4 is the one that utilizes the Snapdragon. It is an Alpha and is not the most stable but the sound is definitely an improvement.

The dac is awesome and can be tricked to utilize the higher powered option. I have and have had many high priced day's and dad's and the V20 ranks right up there.

I can't get power amp alpha to stay open

 

[Mike Dee]

Every review I've seen seems to praise the dac as "the real deal" "not a gimmick" now I currently don't have a nice pair of headphones to see for myself but when I plug in a standard pair it says a normal audio device is connected. It automatically determines what's plugged in. So I imagine it's not going to utilize hardware in the phone for hardware that's not compatible... Maybe? I'm wondering if I plugged in something that could really take advantage of the DAC if it would make a difference. Maybe even a different message appears aside from the "normal audio device" I get with some low end headphones. //uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161103/6e2199969222b149c3316de6260a785c.jpg

Regardless I have to go with what every single review I've seen has said about the DAC. I guess I'll get to see for myself when my headphones arrive. Either way the phone is a beast and I'm definitely keeping it.

I think even with normal the hifi still kicks I but its just not as powerful

 

[frope01]

Re: Serious V20 Problem!!

Every review I've seen seems to praise the dac as "the real deal" "not a gimmick" now I currently don't have a nice pair of headphones to see for myself but when I plug in a standard pair it says a normal audio device is connected. It automatically determines what's plugged in. So I imagine it's not going to utilize hardware in the phone for hardware that's not compatible... Maybe? I'm wondering if I plugged in something that could really take advantage of the DAC if it would make a difference. Maybe even a different message appears aside from the "normal audio device" I get with some low end headphones. //uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161103/6e2199969222b149c3316de6260a785c.jpg

Regardless I have to go with what every single review I've seen has said about the DAC. I guess I'll get to see for myself when my headphones arrive. Either way the phone is a beast and I'm definitely keeping it.

I didn't know it showed whether you had high impedance headphones or normal. Thanks. I just knew it sounds awesome. I see now I have a high impedance set.

 

[mlknez]

Re: Serious V20 Problem!!

I hate to burst everyone's bubble, but I just got my assertion confirmed by the factory. The "improvement" that you are hearing is a volume increase due to the change to the high-gain circuit. That circuit is not dependent on the quality of the headphones that you plug in. It changes to the high-gain stage (more voltage/more volume) to compensate for hard to drive headphones. If it kicked in with sensitive earphones, you would hear a hiss in the background. The improvement in "quality" is a placebo effect that you get from the volume increase and the thought that you are taking advantage of the better, ES9218 DAC. The actual output is not much better than the 30 cent Qualcomm DAC also in this device.

 

[traviswhayne]

Please provide proof for your statement... I have a hard time seeing any OEM put in an expensive DAC just to give user's a placebo effect. I can tell you after plugging in multiple devices that the plug itself recognizes different output devices and changes the output based on that device. And as for DSD vs PCM etc. the math will tell you that the difference is almost always an illusion and that really the hardware itself makes more of a difference in the sound quality than the encoding.

Of course you can always return the V20 and go with any of the other high end audio smartphones out there like.... (crickets, crickets...)

 

[stan23]

Re: Serious V20 Problem!!

simple. Stop using neutron player, and use the LG audio player.

Your problem is that the DAC is not supported by 3rd party apps.

 

[Danfj40]

Re: Serious V20 Problem!!

Jerry?

 

[Salbreth1]

Re: Serious V20 Problem!!

Hey guys, Thought I'd add my 2 cents. I do audiophile grade restorations on vintage HIFI stereo components, Marantz, McIntosh, ect. and do A/B comparisons of different speakers and components all day. I use Tidal and other lossless music to demo my builds with clients using an HTC 10. I loved the phone but I was having wifi issues. So I brought the V20 home today and did some critical listening. Wow. I try not to be biased and make myself think its better because its supposed to be, but this sounds amazing. No need for any special players or gimmicky EQ curve tricks. Its just beautifully transparent and the noise floor is non existent.

From what I've read the output voltage is determined by the input impedance of whatever its plugged into. I'm not sure what the max rms output voltage is yet but the couple components I listened with were dramatically louder than the HTC 10 at the same volume. I also read that the 3 of the 4 dacs will be bypassed if the source input does not requrie high quality conversion. I assume this is determined by the bit rate of the source material. Tidals streams FLAC at 1411 kbps, 16 bit. And from what I listened to, nothing seems to be bypassed.

Like I said, this is just my subjective opinion. Hope it helps.

Sal

 

[Mike Dee]

Re: Serious V20 Problem!!

simple. Stop using neutron player, and use the LG audio player.

Your problem is that the DAC is not supported by 3rd party apps.

Agreed