07-15-2014 12:26 PM
- 11-03-2013 01:29 AM
- If we go there, we're going full blown cost benefit analysis, dynamic ROI analysis, possibly a weighted system that includes net cash flows, accrued daily and compounded monthly, based on cost of capital from all investments, not just purchase price and interest, but maintenance schedules, fuel mileage, impact of investment in alternative matter and we're figuring this stuff out with an input control that allows users to customize the importance of flexibility and cash on hand versus waste handling and total cost. This is what I do, lol.
Signatures, shmignatures...11-03-2013 01:33 AM
- I can simplify it down quite a bit and income situation and ROI's have nothing to do with it. Let's say you, for whatever reason, want to cycle a car every 3 years (I think it's pretty well accepted buying outright is best long term, so sticking to the 3 year example for leasing purposes). You're probably going to drive it the same way and end up in the same condition, with the same depreciated trade in value regardless of financing options. In a purchase and standard loan, yes you have a higher monthly payment in most cases, but there's no real surprises at the end. You trade in, hopefully pay enough down to at least even up the loan if needed, or roll the upside down portion into the new loan.
In a lease, that monthly rate may be cheaper, but those dealers have a darn good idea how much that car will be worth when you turn it in under the conditions stipulated in the lease. I.e under your mileage allotment for example, and they want it in immaculate condition for the highest expected value (and highest chance for "gotcha" fees). Even if you don't factor in things like dealer profit and their expenses they need to recoup, you can bet those cheap monthly payments aren't going to cover the cost of depreciation under normal use. Where do you think the make up amount is going to come from? Your pocket. Turn it in in less than excellent condition? You're charged for that. Tire tread life lower than they want? You'll probably be assessed a fee for new ones. Late on an oil change? Oh you bet there will be a penalty, and likely more if you don't keep your shop records. Their contracts are pretty much iron clad to insure they make a hefty profit off you.
Is it possible to turn in a leased car and not pay any extras on top of the monthly rate? Theatrically yes depending on the lease, but it would be so much trouble and involve so much worry about anything happening to it that it's not likely and not worth the hassle. Take a good look at some "certified pre-owned" type vehicles sometime. Those are often lease turn ins and will give you a good idea what condition the dealer wants them back in. Betcha they look dang near new. Ask yourself, is it worth those cheap payments to be socked with those high penalties at the end? If you're in a situation where you think leasing is a cheap way to go, then no. Well, it never is, but more power to you if you go into it knowing you're about to sign into the most expensive way to own (or rent, in this case) a car and can safely afford it.
Now for those tempting leases that offer inclusive maintenance schedules? You're going to be charged dealership rates for everything when they come up with the terms of the contract, whereas you would save hundreds, if not thousands if you had the option of going to independent shops for basic maintenance like oil and tire changes.11-03-2013 04:59 AM
- Oh, one more thing I almost forgot. That 2009 Taurus will have next to no depreciation at the end of the loan compared to the combined depreciation of the two new Mercedes used above. The biggest hit in depreciation comes in the first few years of ownership, and that loss alone in the above example would probably cover the entire cost of the Taurus with nothing to show for it. Heck, the depreciation in just one Mercedes may buy that Taurus.11-03-2013 05:11 AM
- I've leased one car, it had nothing added in the way of fees. I've financed two cars, one new and one used, but other than that I have always bought outright. I'm sure there are people that sign foolish leases, but I have a hard time believing that is normal, because I don't feel like I got an abnormal agreement. The lease payments are based upon the expected depreciation and the goal of the dealer is to make you a repeat customer... screwing everyone over would end that quick. Most leases are not zero sign, but shopping can find them. I'm definitely not saying everyone should do it, but it exists because it is valuable to a certain type of consumer, especially enterprise operations.
XT1060. Through spacetime.11-03-2013 06:16 AM
SSgS|||_2_DroidCentral11-03-2013 07:02 AM
- If we have to choose between one extreme and the other, I'd personally like to see the government not getting into people's private lives in any ways at all, rather than controlling it entirely. I moved to the United States of America, not Iran or North Korea. I don't think the government should be allowed to collect information about a person's habits, even if we're paying for them, and especially should not be able to dictate those habits. What's the difference between a welfare recipient and any other civic employee? Money is coming from the same place, but we don't tell the employee how to spend their salary.
Given that the population that doesn't self advance themselves out of the programs is very small, I think we can find ways to control what the funds they receive are spent on... such as using debt cards that only work for certain goods and services that require a photo ID to utilize (prevents selling benefits, etc). Now, will people buy goods and possible sell those goods? Maybe, but that's beyond the scope of us caring, because people trade goods and services all the time, it's called business. But nothing changes from today's model, where we control what is purchased with our money, but what happens after that is none of our business unless it's endangering children or violating other laws, both of which are handled on an indvidual case by case basis, rather than with broad punishments towards everyone else.
It sucks, but since it costs around $.08 per average tax payer (that's not receiving a refund) per month to finance food stamps, personally I don't care about my less than $1 per year going to that cause, etc. Yes, it all adds up, but if $.95 of my $.96 cents is helping people who need it and $.01 is being used by people to do stuff I'd prefer they didn't, I still don't care because I'm not them and they're free to live in poverty if that's what they wish to do.
Food stamps you can only by food and health items, but what about what other income the recipient has? How is it right that they go out and blow the rest of their money on cigarettes, shiny rims, and designer clothing when I am paying for their necessities?11-03-2013 08:22 AM
- A government employee is selling a service for money. Just like any other job... I do not understand why you would make the connection between them and a person receiving entitlement benefits at all.
Food stamps you can only by food and health items, but what about what other income the recipient has? How is it right that they go out and blow the rest of their money on cigarettes, shiny rims, and designer clothing when I am paying for their necessities?
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk11-03-2013 08:37 AM
- 11-03-2013 08:45 AM
Nexus. Through spacetime.11-03-2013 09:11 AM
- 11-03-2013 10:07 AM
- It's not right, I'm just not comfortable with the government barging into their personal business and making choices for them. That is also very not right. If I have to deal with a penny or even a dollar a year that goes to something that I dislike, that's preferable to encouraging government intrusion into citizens lives. While the line may seem clear and fair, they WILL cross the line and abuse the privacy of others if given the latitude.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
For example, a lady goes around to businesses and restaurants and sells pens for 3$. She is a deaf mute and as far as I know has know family. I would regularly buy one from her for 20$ and bought her lunch one time. Until one day I caught her smoking. She will NEVER get another dime from me. If she has enough money to buy cigarettes, she does not need money from me for anything else.11-03-2013 10:25 AM
- Of course everyone is not, but take a drive through the public housing section of the city I grew up in or take a glance cars that the students drive that are on the "free lunch" list at the high school and your tune might change a bit. I have known lots of people in food stamps/welfare. Only one person I know has ever gotten off after being on. And the only reason he got off is because he finally got a job using his college degree and went over the line of income. He could have gotten off sooner, but his wife refused to work when they could get more money in food stamps than she could go and make working.
I am sure there's fraud and abuse, and a drug dealer here and there with the big rims you mentioned. Go ahead and bust them, but you're going pay for their welfare while they're in jail. Of course I am 100% against any type of fraud or abuse, but I just don't think it's to the extent that you're portraying it.11-03-2013 10:34 AM
- .....For example, a lady goes around to businesses and restaurants and sells pens for 3$. She is a deaf mute and as far as I know has know family. I would regularly buy one from her for 20$ and bought her lunch one time. Until one day I caught her smoking. She will NEVER get another dime from me. If she has enough money to buy cigarettes, she does not need money from me for anything else.11-03-2013 10:40 AM
- I am still having trouble understanding your statement. First you say, "Of course everyone is not". Then you say, "I have known lots of people in food stamps/welfare.", and then tell me, "Only one person I know has ever gotten off after being on". That sounds like about everybody to me.
I am sure there's fraud and abuse, and a drug dealer here and there with the big rims you mentioned. Go ahead and bust them, but you're going pay for their welfare while they're in jail. Of course I am 100% against any type of fraud or abuse, but I just don't think it's to the extent that you're portraying it.
I don't want the system to go away. Not at all. But I do want to see heavy reform. I want government aid to be the absolute last option for people. I want a society that people help each other by choice instead of a society that forces help by taxes where much of the money wasted through bureaucracy and you have no control over who gets your money or what it is used on.11-03-2013 11:46 AM
- 11-03-2013 01:21 PM
- I missed that post. I think he is also over depreciating the used car in his scenario. A $6000 used car will probably still be worth about $4-5000 at the end of the three years, depending on the vehicle and condition. He says it would basically be zero, which is a gross over estimation unless it's ran into the ground. But that still goes back to my earlier point that the depreciation cost on a new vehicle is going to be way higher. Maintenance costs aren't going to be all that much either when buying a good quality used car. Quite possibly less as car parts for older vehicles are often cheaper and less complex. Heck, on my base model 2002 Focus I bought brand new and still own with 160k miles on it, the only things I've had to replace that were a simple failure and not either regular maintenance or an accident are a few wheel bearings (I like to say I drove it until the wheels fell off, then put them back on and drove some more ). Blue Book on it is still US$1200 trade in, $2000 private sale value in "good" condition. It's been hovering around that for quite some time.
XT1060. Through spacetime.11-03-2013 04:56 PM
XT1060. Through spacetime.11-03-2013 05:00 PM
Signatures, shmignatures...11-03-2013 06:10 PM
- 11-03-2013 06:18 PM
- Military. Some parts of labor protection laws, some parts of civil rights protections, ineptly spying on citizens, being bribed by giant banks, scaring ignorant folks and preventing the spread of werewolves. (we actually had an agency for awhile that prevented supernatural stuff from harming the public).
(and i'd like to hear more about that "supernatural stuff" )
Signatures, shmignatures...11-03-2013 07:39 PM
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