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  1. #926  
    llamabreath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairclough View Post
    As for every company is in for a profit.
    Google....

    'RAC road side assist'

    Its a not for profit insurer.

    - Android Central App. Remember courage is contagious.
    Not for profit is not for profit.

    Signatures, shmignatures...
  2. #927  

    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by msndrstood View Post
    Because...They knew the restriction, they raised the co pay so you WOULD have to pay for another policy. They're not stupid, this is a cash cow for them. But go ahead and defend the insurance companies.

    If you're going to continue to call it by anything than the ACA or Obamacare, you guys can continue to chat among yourselves.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    The problem with this line of thinking is it goes against the nature of business, big and small. Even the most "evil" of companies looking to stick it to the consumer can't survive by doing what you're saying. Though competition may be limited, it's not like they all got together and said they would jack the rates and claim increased ACA related costs that don't really exist. There are documented cases that demonstrated an industry can't keep prices artificially inflated just by pure market forces. Not to mention there are laws against that kind of coercion.

    But, let's say your theory is true and some are purposely increasing the copay as a loophole to get out of the grandfather clause, or just flat out cancelled any policy not meeting the requirements regardless of grandfathering. It would be plausible that doing so would help streamline their operation by not having those old and now fringe policies. While costs are going up either way, it could cost more overall to keep the manpower and database operations to handle the extra different policies than to remove them.

    I'm not claiming I'm 100% right, but that's the other side of your argument on why policies are being cancelled that would qualify for being grandfathered. Something to consider at least, as I don't have proof and I'm guessing you don't have any for side either. It's all speculation.
  3. #928  
    msndrstood's Avatar

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    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    The problem with this line of thinking is it goes against the nature of business, big and small. Even the most "evil" of companies looking to stick it to the consumer can't survive by doing what you're saying. Though competition may be limited, it's not like they all got together and said they would jack the rates and claim increased ACA related costs that don't really exist. There are documented cases that demonstrated an industry can't keep prices artificially inflated just by pure market forces. Not to mention there are laws against that kind of coercion.

    But, let's say your theory is true and some are purposely increasing the copay as a loophole to get out of the grandfather clause, or just flat out cancelled any policy not meeting the requirements regardless of grandfathering. It would be plausible that doing so would help streamline their operation by not having those old and now fringe policies. While costs are going up either way, it could cost more overall to keep the manpower and database operations to handle the extra different policies than to remove them.

    I'm not claiming I'm 100% right, but that's the other side of your argument on why policies are being cancelled that would qualify for being grandfathered. Something to consider at least, as I don't have proof and I'm guessing you don't have any for side either. It's all speculation.
    Thank you for the rational discussion.

    You could be right, that takes a lot of research to prove or disprove, that could go for my theory too.

    We had an interesting discussion with our financial advisor a few years ago. She told us that companies who fund pension plans and annuity plans buy life insurance policies on the owner of the pension/annuity. I thought that was interesting. Now why would they do that if they were not for profit? When they cash it in at the request of the owner, they pay the annuity owner whatever the agreed upon interest is, anything over and above is profit for them. Pretty sweet deal.

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  4. #929  

    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by msndrstood View Post
    We had an interesting discussion with our financial advisor a few years ago. She told us that companies who fund pension plans and annuity plans buy life insurance policies on the owner of the pension/annuity. I thought that was interesting. Now why would they do that if they were not for profit? When they cash it in at the request of the owner, they pay the annuity owner whatever the agreed upon interest is, anything over and above is profit for them. Pretty sweet deal.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    I'm not quite sure I'm following you right? Are you talking about whole life life insurance type policies where you're supposed to be able to have an investment retirement account as part of the insurance plan? If so, those are pretty much the worst life insurance plans and I wouldn't ever have one just because the premiums are so high and they are big profit maker for insurance companies/brokers.
  5. #930  
    llamabreath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by msndrstood View Post
    But go ahead and defend the insurance companies.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    I'd like to know where I defended insurance companies. What I did was defend the definition of a company, a business. Businesses are not in business to lose money. It defeats the whole purpose.

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  6. #931  
    msndrstood's Avatar

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    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Along the same lines. Same concept. Done via pension plans as a whole but on a individual basis. We didn't do that, she was just giving us an inside scoop on how insurance companies work.

    The point, of course, is that insurance companies are no different than any other company, they are in it to make a profit and will do so readily, in their best interest, of course.

    Now to what you were saying about evil companies, the banks are a good example. They sold bad mortgages that they knew would default, they took out insurance policies on those mortgages hoping they would fail. Homeowner goes into foreclosure, the bank takes the house, collects on the policy, then, resells the house. Big profit. That is evil. And it happened millions of times.

    Most, not all, major corporations will look out for their bottom line rather than the customer. Especially, once they get to a certain size that they deem is too big to fail, or regulate. We wouldn't need regulations if companies would do the right thing.

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  7. #932  

    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    The problem with this line of thinking is it goes against the nature of business, big and small. Even the most "evil" of companies looking to stick it to the consumer can't survive by doing what you're saying. Though competition may be limited, it's not like they all got together and said they would jack the rates and claim increased ACA related costs that don't really exist. There are documented cases that demonstrated an industry can't keep prices artificially inflated just by pure market forces. Not to mention there are laws against that kind of coercion....
    It's called collusion and it happens all the time. What just happened to Apple and E-Books? They were found guilty of price fixing.

    Keynesian economics can work as long as you have actual competing units. Look at AT&T and Verizon. I won't say they are guilty of collusion or price fixing, but are they really competing? To me they are playing follow the leader, ie, If they can get $60, we should be able to $70; If they can get $70, we should be able to $80; If they can get $80, we should be able to $90; If they can throttle data, we should be able to throttle data..etc...
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  8. #933  
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    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by llamabreath View Post
    I'd like to know where I defended insurance companies. What I did was defend the definition of a company, a business. Businesses are not in business to lose money. It defeats the whole purpose.

    Signatures, shmignatures...
    They are even worse when they prey on the sick. My son in law accidentally put his arm through a French door, severed his brachial artery, nearly died from bleeding out, had surgery. $50,000 hospital bill. Insurance denied it for a pre-existing condition. They could not give any other explanation. That's greed.

    He was 22 at the time, no pre-existing conditions.

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  9. #934  
    llamabreath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by msndrstood View Post
    They are even worse when they prey on the sick. My son in law accidentally put his arm through a French door, severed his brachial artery, nearly died from bleeding out, had surgery. $50,000 hospital bill. Insurance denied it for a pre-existing condition. They could not give any other explanation. That's greed.

    He was 22 at the time, no pre-existing conditions.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    I never said that businesses have hearts. Hearts and money have never coexisted. Don't forget that politics and money DO coexist.

    Signatures, shmignatures...
  10. #935  
    pappy53's Avatar
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    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by msndrstood View Post
    Because...They knew the restriction, they raised the co pay so you WOULD have to pay for another policy. They're not stupid, this is a cash cow for them. But go ahead and defend the insurance companies.

    If you're going to continue to call it by anything than the ACA or Obamacare, you guys can continue to chat among yourselves.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    It's Obummercare to me, sponsored by a do-nothing president. But he will plead ignorance to everything.


    Sent from my XT1080 using AC Forums mobile app
  11. #936  

    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by msndrstood View Post
    Now to what you were saying about evil companies, the banks are a good example. They sold bad mortgages that they knew would default, they took out insurance policies on those mortgages hoping they would fail. Homeowner goes into foreclosure, the bank takes the house, collects on the policy, then, resells the house. Big profit. That is evil. And it happened millions of times.
    If I'm not mistaken, those risky loans were attributed to the Clinton administration when banks that dealt with mortgages were placed under new regulations requiring them to hold a certain percentage of these loans (sub-prime?) with the belief that everyone should own a home. Guess what, not every one should. Plus even with having insurance, it's still a big headache for a bank to hold a foreclosed home and what you suggest would likely verge on insurance fraud if they willingly took on those loans with the intention of having them default and collect on the insurance. That is, assuming they could get that kind of insurance. Typically they sell the home, then sue the former owner if the price doesn't cover the loan.


    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    It's called collusion and it happens all the time. What just happened to Apple and E-Books? They were found guilty of price fixing.
    Thanks for the correction. But there is a difference between companies charging what the market will bare independently and actively holding prices high simply because the consumer has no other choice..


    Quote Originally Posted by msndrstood View Post
    They are even worse when they prey on the sick. My son in law accidentally put his arm through a French door, severed his brachial artery, nearly died from bleeding out, had surgery. $50,000 hospital bill. Insurance denied it for a pre-existing condition. They could not give any other explanation. That's greed.

    He was 22 at the time, no pre-existing conditions.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    Did you fight this in arbitration or in court? They have to prove the qualifying condition of an otherwise valid claim to deny it.
  12. #937  
    msndrstood's Avatar

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    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    If I'm not mistaken, those risky loans were attributed to the Clinton administration when banks that dealt with mortgages were placed under new regulations requiring them to hold a certain percentage of these loans (sub-prime?) with the belief that everyone should own a home. Guess what, not every one should. Plus even with having insurance, it's still a big headache for a bank to hold a foreclosed home and what you suggest would likely verge on insurance fraud if they willingly took on those loans with the intention of having them default and collect on the insurance. That is, assuming they could get that kind of insurance. Typically they sell the home, then sue the former owner if the price doesn't cover the loan.




    Thanks for the correction. But there is a difference between companies charging what the market will bare independently and actively holding prices high simply because the consumer has no other choice..



    Did you fight this in arbitration or in court? They have to prove the qualifying condition of an otherwise valid claim to deny it.
    I seem to remember this:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/bu...anted=all&_r=0


    They did appeal it and it was denied. It wasn't up to me to fight it further. They didn't have the money for an attorney and we helped them as much we could. This was 2008. He lost his job and they were a family of 5. They had other things to deal with at the time.


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  13. #938  

    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by msndrstood View Post
    Had to do some looking, but the specific regulation I was thinking of is the Community Reinvestment Act of 1977, signed under Carter (don't ask where I got Clinton from XD) and essentially required bad loans, but that's a debate for another day.

    For the record, I was against the Bush bailouts as well.
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  14. #939  

    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    ...Thanks for the correction. But there is a difference between companies charging what the market will bare independently and actively holding prices high simply because the consumer has no other choice..
    ...and that's what I think they are doing. We don't have many choices and they are playing follow the leader, rather than competing. If you saw prices in Europe, it makes you wonder. Check out pricing for "3" UK.:

    The One Plan 3UK (2 Year Contract)

    Contract Length: 24 months
    Inclusive UK voice minutes: 2000 mins
    Inclusive UK text messages: 5000 texts
    Three-to-Three UK calls: 5000 mins
    Internet Allowance: All-you-can-eat data (Includes Tethering)
    25 per month. (No handset price) ($39.54)

    The One Plan 3UK (Monthly Contract)

    Contract Length: 1 month
    Inclusive UK voice minutes: 300 mins
    Inclusive UK text messages: 3000 texts
    Internet Allowance: All-you-can-eat data
    15 per month. ($23.72)

    My Wife and I go to France, there you get home internet, home phone, home tv and a cellphone through Orange for like 50 euros, about $65 usd. We pay like $200+ for all those services here ;
    Orange Open, internet-TV-tlphone + mobile par Orange
  15. #940  

    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    People this is not about the insurance agencies which could be regulated fairly if that's what the government wanted. They (the Democrats)did not want that. They wanted to legacy build and then protect the first black president of the US. I understand that position but it doesn't make it right. It was wrong from the beginning which is why it failed for Hillary before. The Dems had a chance for slam dunk and now millions are losing their policies. The insurance companies will profit from this but only because of the failed policy of this president. He seems clueless and this whole process is an expensive unnecessary disaster. We are much more capable than this. Sadly politics has ruined it for everyone, even that poor cancer patient who decided to take the fine and die. [Insults Against Forums Members Redacted]
  16. #941  
    Assassin Droid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Lately there have been a few engaged and informative debates, but one or two people seem to consistently not be able to play with others without name calling and otherwise making completely unacceptable comments.

    I guess not everyone read this, so I'll re-post it:

    Be polite. Keep your language clean and appropriate. Refrain from personal attacks or insults to other members. Constructive discussions, debates and free speech are encouraged in the forums. However, it is not constructive to criticize or insult another member because their opinion differs from yours. Discrimination or harassment is not tolerated.Be courteous to other forum members regardless of their race, age, nationality, country of residence, ethnic origin, sex, sexual orientation, political views or religious beliefs.
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  17. #942  
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    Default Obama's world is caving in around him.

    It looks like Obama's own party is trying the CYA program for their own good. His Obamacare lie has caught up with him, and even the great Democrat Bill Clinton is calling him out. One problem is that the insurance policies that have been cancelled will not be reinstated by those companies. Several Democratic representatives have given him a Friday deadline to come up with a fix, or they are going to back the Republicans. All of those senators that are up for re-election can't be tied in with this fiasco, and are trying to save face as we speak.
    What's he gonna do now? He's up the proverbial creek without a paddle, and his crew is jumping ship!
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  18. #943  

    Default Re: Obama's world is caving in around him.

    Quote Originally Posted by pappy53 View Post
    It looks like Obama's own party is trying the CYA program for their own good. His Obamacare lie has caught up with him, and even the great Democrat Bill Clinton is calling him out. One problem is that the insurance policies that have been cancelled will not be reinstated by those companies. Several Democratic representatives have given him a Friday deadline to come up with a fix, or they are going to back the Republicans. All of those senators that are up for re-election can't be tied in with this fiasco, and are trying to save face as we speak.
    What's he gonna do now? He's up the proverbial creek without a paddle, and his crew is jumping ship!
    So much hate...

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using AC Forums mobile app
  19. #944  

    Default Re: Obama's world is caving in around him.

    Much as I don't like his policies, he will find a way. Pretty much any time it looks like a politician is cornered like this, they find a way to squeak through.
  20. #945  
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    Default Re: Obama's world is caving in around him.

    Quote Originally Posted by festinator View Post
    So much hate...

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using AC Forums mobile app
    You are correct. I hate lying.
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  21. #946  

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pappy53 View Post
    It looks like Obama's own party is trying the CYA program for their own good. His Obamacare lie has caught up with him, and even the great Democrat Bill Clinton is calling him out. One problem is that the insurance policies that have been cancelled will not be reinstated by those companies. Several Democratic representatives have given him a Friday deadline to come up with a fix, or they are going to back the Republicans. All of those senators that are up for re-election can't be tied in with this fiasco, and are trying to save face as we speak.
    What's he gonna do now? He's up the proverbial creek without a paddle, and his crew is jumping ship!
    If you live in the USA. It's your place too. So what are you doing to make a difference

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  22. #947  
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    Default Re: Obama's world is caving in around him.

    Huh?

    Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
  23. #948  

    Default Re: Obama's world is caving in around him.

    Quote Originally Posted by pappy53 View Post
    ,,,,and even the great Democrat Bill Clinton is calling him out....
    ....Asked later Tuesday if Obama agrees with Clinton, White House Press Secretary Jay Carney pointed to Obama’s NBC interview last week.

    “Well, I think as you saw the president say in an interview with NBC last week, the answer is yes, the president has tasked his team with looking at a range of options, as he said, to make sure that nobody is put in a position where their plans have been canceled and they can’t afford a better plan even though they’d like to have a better plan,” Carney told reporters at the White House.


    Bill Clinton Says Obama Should Honor ‘You Can Keep It’ Health Care Promise | TIME.com
  24. #949  
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    Default Re: Obama's world is caving in around him.

    Quote Originally Posted by festinator View Post
    So much hate...

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using AC Forums mobile app
    The hate for Bush is better?

    Signatures, shmignatures...
  25. #950  

    Default Re: Obama's world is caving in around him.

    Quote Originally Posted by llamabreath View Post
    The hate for Bush is better?

    Signatures, shmignatures...
    I dont think so no.

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