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  1. #201  

    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingIsTrue View Post
    Not sure who "they" are, but yes, they're foolish to make those claims. In the political climate at the time of the vote, passing was pretty close to inevitable in some form or another. The Supreme Court was always expected to uphold it, but not in the way that they did. Any new president, assuming there was a challenger to come anywhere close to the electoral votes to contest the office, would be 100% powerless to repeal the law. They could gut it with executive orders, but then we'd have to listen to the whining about executive orders that we hear today. Repealing the law requires Congressional cooperation. Whoever "they" is comprised of, "they" should be ignored at best or at worst, bet against them in the future.

    The other major difference is that, in my estimation, approximately less than 1% of Americans support banning and/or confiscating all firearms, whereas numbers going into the healthcare conversation indicated 76% of Americans supported some form of improvement to healthcare law. Similar to today, over 80% of people support improving weapon legislation and enforcement, but banning and confiscation are supported by approximately no one.
    "They" is just a generic term for those that opposed Obama and his healthcare bill. Not to throw this thread off topic but Obama failed to address heathcare costs and premiums under Obamacare just like he failed to address the criminal element in his gun ban.
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  2. #202  
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    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin O'Quinn View Post
    This discussion is about whether they are correcting an error or not. That's a matter of opinion, which makes it not factual by nature.
    Actually, what is at issue is the definition of infringement, which is a matter of historical legal record, not opinion. To designate (or redesignate) a firearm for military/police use only neither infringes one's ability to be safe in their own person, nor does it prevent a person from securing their property.

    For the absolutists among you, SCOTUS is the final authority. By deciding that "handguns are the most popular weapon chosen by Americans for self-defense in the home, and a complete prohibition of their use is invalid”, Scalia knowingly left the door open to the removal of selective handguns, handheld weapons of mass destruction and any other firearms from the public market. Scalia ... that nutty, wacky, anti-2nd Amendment nutcase, I tell ya!
  3. #203  
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    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by carolinadroid View Post
    Actually, what is at issue is the definition of infringement, which is a matter of historical legal record, not opinion. To designate (or redesignate) a firearm for military/police use only neither infringes one's ability to be safe in their own person, nor does it prevent a person from securing their property.

    For the absolutists among you, SCOTUS is the final authority. By deciding that "handguns are the most popular weapon chosen by Americans for self-defense in the home, and a complete prohibition of their use is invalid”, Scalia knowingly left the door open to the removal of selective handguns, handheld weapons of mass destruction and any other firearms from the public market. Scalia ... that nutty, wacky, anti-2nd Amendment nutcase, I tell ya!
    It's a good thing the Second Amendment doesn't say "you have the right to be safe in your own person and to secure your property"

    And SCOTUS justices can say whatever they want. That doesn't make it a ruling. Unless that was written as part of a ruling, in which case I would kindly ask that you provide links.
    Kevin F.I.M.T.K. O'Quinn Esq.
  4. #204  
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    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin O'Quinn View Post
    It's a good thing the Second Amendment doesn't say "you have the right to be safe in your own person and to secure your property"
    Such statements were included in State Declarations of Rights which formed the basis for what was to become our national Constitution. An understanding of the common law of the preceding 150 years to the Constitution would be helpful.

    And SCOTUS justices can say whatever they want. That doesn't make it a ruling. Unless that was written as part of a ruling, in which case I would kindly ask that you provide links.
    This was Scalia delivering the majority ruling of the SCOTUS in DC vs Heller. Pages 57-58, if I recall correctly.
  5. #205  
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    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by carolinadroid View Post
    Such statements were included in State Declarations of Rights which formed the basis for what was to become our national Constitution. An understanding of the common law of the preceding 150 years to the Constitution would be helpful.



    This was Scalia delivering the majority ruling of the SCOTUS in DC vs Heller. Pages 57-58, if I recall correctly.
    I'm not entirely sure I understand why anything the States did prior to the Constitution and it being ratified has anything to do with anything. I mean prior to the Declaration of Independence weren't they following the laws of the King? Maybe we should go back to that... :P
    Kevin F.I.M.T.K. O'Quinn Esq.
  6. #206  
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    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin O'Quinn View Post
    I'm not entirely sure I understand why anything the States did prior to the Constitution and it being ratified has anything to do with anything. I mean prior to the Declaration of Independence weren't they following the laws of the King? Maybe we should go back to that... :P
    I almost forgot. Historical and legal context don't matter. All that matters is what I viscerally feeeeeel are my rights.
  7. #207  
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    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    The thing about rights, is that they are not granted by the Constitution. The Constitution, specifically the amendments, merely innumerate rights that are common to all mankind. The two biggest abuses of the Constitution, in my opinion, are 1. Convincing American's that the rights only apply to American Citizens, which would imply we are subjects to a right granting body and are non-sovereign, and 2. Convincing American's that some rights supersede others and/or that rights can be taken away by government, which implies that we are subjects to a right granting body and are non-sovereign and that rights are subjectively granted at a whim by the ruling powers. Rights are rights and belong to all humans unless they choose not to exercise those rights. They can be forfeited, but never taken away.
  8. #208  
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    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Interesting take on rights.

    So, we have an innate right to own weapons. I would think because of that we don't need a 2nd amendent. I am not saying that you agree with that, I am just asking your thoughts.

    I think that men (referring to both sexes) craft constitutions, laws, moral codes etc. to agree to an acceptable conduct in the public and private space.

    I do enjoy your discussion on this topic.

    As to the original topic, I think these companies are wrong and their stance rings hollow.

    I am such a patriot that I refuse to sell merchandise to Iran or North Korea. And that is a very easy stance for me to take and without risk. Because I don't anyway.

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  9. #209  
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    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by rexxman View Post
    Interesting take on rights.

    So, we have an innate right to own weapons. I would think because of that we don't need a 2nd amendent. I am not saying that you agree with that, I am just asking your thoughts.

    I think that men (referring to both sexes) craft constitutions, laws, moral codes etc. to agree to an acceptable conduct in the public and private space.

    I do enjoy your discussion on this topic.

    As to the original topic, I think these companies are wrong and their stance rings hollow.

    I am such a patriot that I refuse to sell merchandise to Iran or North Korea. And that is a very easy stance for me to take and without risk. Because I don't anyway.

    Blue 32gb Galaxy S3
    I think I'm going to start a "rights" thread here or on another forum so that I stop high-jacking this one, but yes, I believe the bill of rights doesn't grant rights, it just observes them and the government's inability to infringe upon them. (Human Rights - At Home and Abroad)

    On the original topic, as a show of support their stance makes sense, however I do agree they're not really sacrificing anything. I'm not sure if it makes it "hollow" or not, but it definitely is different than originally painted.
    Last edited by NothingIsTrue; 02-28-2013 at 10:32 PM.
  10. Thread Author  Thread Author    #210  

    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Magpul released this statement today.


    While the title of the article does state that this includes the military, the article itself says:

    "With the fight in Colorado right now we do not have time to implement a new program, so I have suspended all LE sales to ban states until we can implement a system wherein any Law Enforcement Officer buying for duty use will have to promise to uphold their oath to the US Constitution – specifically the second and fourteenth amendments – as it applies to all citizens."
    I miss my friend Matt McQuinn he touched so many lives, and in the end gave his life to protect someone that he loved. I am proud to have known him, and of the choices he made when it mattered. You were a true hero.

    "You would not fear my weapon unless your intentions were to provoke my using it"
  11. #211  
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    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Like Grover Norquist wasn't bad enough.

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  12. #212  
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    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by carolinadroid View Post
    I almost forgot. Historical and legal context don't matter. All that matters is what I viscerally feeeeeel are my rights.
    Again. Why not just go back to how things were under the King? The Constitution is a "clean break" from anything that went on before it. Legal and historical context for the purpose of this discussion should be limited to what's happened between the Constitution being put into effect and now.

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  13. #213  
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    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin O'Quinn View Post
    Again. Why not just go back to how things were under the King? The Constitution is a "clean break" from anything that went on before it. Legal and historical context for the purpose of this discussion should be limited to what's happened between the Constitution being put into effect and now.
    You're conveniently overlooking easily-obtainable America-101 history. Absolutely weak argument.
  14. #214  
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    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by carolinadroid View Post
    You're conveniently overlooking easily-obtainable America-101 history. Absolutely weak argument.
    Then enlighten me. Please tell me exactly what document the Constitution was based and/or modeled after? What document was written before it that accomplished so much for a people?
    Kevin F.I.M.T.K. O'Quinn Esq.
  15. #215  
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    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    It has been longer then I'd like to admit (so I won't) since an American history class, but I do believe our system of laws is loosely based on English common law.

    And in particular, since you have asked about it, the Magna Carta comes easily to mind.

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  16. #216  

    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Isn't it the federalist papers that are supposed to have the writings listing intents and reasons behind the various parts of the Constitution?
  17. #217  
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    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin O'Quinn View Post
    Then enlighten me. Please tell me exactly what document the Constitution was based and/or modeled after? What document was written before it that accomplished so much for a people?
    You believe that with 13 colonies and numerous territories that a single document stood as the template for the Constitution? You're smarter than that. If you want the Cliff Notes to American History-101, you might want to try Barnes & Nobles. With all due respect.
  18. #218  
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    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by carolinadroid View Post
    You believe that with 13 colonies and numerous territories that a single document stood as the template for the Constitution? You're smarter than that. If you want the Cliff Notes to American History-101, you might want to try Barnes & Nobles. With all due respect.
    But you ask people to do research for you ALL THE TIME.
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  19. #219  
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    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Just as certain people can't understand concepts beyond the paradigm created for them by liars on the "far right", others can't understand there is more to the world than talking points fed to them by liars the "far left". The Truth isn't in the middle, the middle of crazy and lying is still either a vortex of delusional absolutism or inaccurate adherence to a tiny facet of reality, to the intellectual loss of the bigger picture, no matter how centrist you get.

    The Truth requires using your own mind to discover; no politician, partisan mouthpiece, entertainer or media ***** will ever give it to you. The Truth is earned, it cannot be taken, given or co-opted, for anything that is not the entire Truth, even if it omits the tiniest piece to sway interpretation, is by definition not the Truth, for it is false and filtered. We are sovereign and free thinking, however too many latch on the the opinions and lies of whomever appeals to their preconceived notions of emotional consciousness.

    People: These idiots are lying to you and yet you parrot their madness. The goal of misleading can only be manipulation, or the external control of your free will. That is the most basic definition of intellectual slavery and is absolutely necessary if they want you to consent to the physical slavery, in opposition to which our Country was founded.
  20. #220  
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    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Not sure I realize the irony of the Truth being described or defended by NothingIsTrue.
  21. #221  
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    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by carolinadroid View Post
    You believe that with 13 colonies and numerous territories that a single document stood as the template for the Constitution? You're smarter than that. If you want the Cliff Notes to American History-101, you might want to try Barnes & Nobles. With all due respect.
    One of the most inspirational sources to Jefferson and other founders was Thomas Paine, who among many other amazing philosophical statements, gave us this:

    "The laws of every country must be analogous to some common principle. In England, no parent or master, nor all the authority of Parliament, omnipotent as it has called itself, can bind or control the personal freedom of an individual beyond the age of twenty-one." - The Rights of Man

    There are other great examples, but I think this one statement may provide the most concise context that the framers held whilst crafting a government in which every citizen held right to power over the government, as the government existed at the whim of the People, subject primarily in the service of the inalienable rights of each individual.
  22. #222  
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    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin O'Quinn View Post
    But you ask people to do research for you ALL THE TIME.
    Kindly quote these requests in complete context. Put up. Thanks!
  23. #223  

    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by Live2ride883 View Post
    Magpul released this statement today.


    While the title of the article does state that this includes the military, the article itself says:

    "With the fight in Colorado right now we do not have time to implement a new program, so I have suspended all LE sales to ban states until we can implement a system wherein any Law Enforcement Officer buying for duty use will have to promise to uphold their oath to the US Constitution – specifically the second and fourteenth amendments – as it applies to all citizens."
    Can you say Hypocritical democratic liberals.

    Now Magpul has threatened to leave the state and has had other states offer to pay relocation costs.

    Enter the Democratic party in favor of banning these terrible terrible killers of our children.
    State Rep. Daniel Kagan, D-Cherry Hills Village, said he plans to offer an amendment Friday that seeks to soften the bill’s impact on magazine makers in the state.

    “It needs to be clear that manufacturers will be able to still sell and transfer these high-capacity magazines to individuals in other states, the U.S. military and law enforcement,” Kagan said. “We want them (Magpul) to stay here in Colorado. It would be sad to see them leave.”

    Huh, what did I miss something? Oh yeah money, money makes it ok. We want your money but we don't want your product in our state. If you keep giving us your money you can still produce your evil wares here you just have to kill children in other states.

    I think this democratic stand on the safety of our children qualifys and redefines the mythical Paper Tiger.

    LMAO at showing us how to stand up for what you belive in and exercising some integrity.


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  24. #224  

    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by carolinadroid View Post
    You believe that with 13 colonies and numerous territories that a single document stood as the template for the Constitution? You're smarter than that. If you want the Cliff Notes to American History-101, you might want to try Barnes & Nobles. With all due respect.
    I don't care what they loosely based the Constitution on, we go by the US Constitution and there should be no debate about the Amendments.
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  25. #225  
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    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by carolinadroid View Post
    If "anti-2nd amendment States" exist, kindly point us to their proposals which specifically call for the repeal of the right to bear arms within their constitutions.
    Your first post in this thread.

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