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  1. #1176  
    gdruin74's Avatar

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    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairclough View Post
    That could be related to social factors e.g. trends already in play as its exclusive to the theus.

    - Android Central App. Remember courage is contagious.
    Yeah I'm sure it has nothing to do with being worried about the person you are trying to rob having a gun.

    Ask any criminal and they will tell you they are all for gun control. All it does is disarm the innocent.

    Just like gun free zones which are an absolute joke, they are an invitation to criminals not a deterrent.




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  2. #1177  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairclough View Post
    I believe a very slim margin as our other crime rates are almost identical to America's for robbery etc and continued their norm trend per capita. The difference is your teen murder rates is 82x higher. Which shows their is a problem. Secondly the legislation not only rededicated the massacres, youth suicide decreased.

    So I think statistically speaking it hasn't increased crime.

    I mention it as it was on of the last massacres we had. Remember we haven't had one for about 16 years.

    As for defence of women, sure men have a muscular advantage but does not mean they cannot defend them selves. At schoolies last week my girlfriend whose 50kg (about 120pouunds) dropped 3 male men about the age of 17/18 for trying to touch her boobs in the zones. That's just an example size and gender doesn't always play a card in self defence. Personally bit embarrassing for those guys.

    - Android Central App. Remember courage is contagious.

    I would argue that the teen murder rate has more to do with the eroding family structure in this country then the guns themselves. I would also argue that our society as a whole as failed entirely in it's civic duty to promote high moral character and a respect for one another. Starts at home and then snowballs from there. The entertainment business has accelerated this erosion.
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  3. #1178  
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    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveISU View Post
    I would argue that the teen murder rate has more to do with the eroding family structure in this country then the guns themselves. I would also argue that our society as a whole as failed entirely in it's civic duty to promote high moral character and a respect for one another. Starts at home and then snowballs from there. The entertainment business has accelerated this erosion.
    You can thank 16&prego and Jersey boar

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  4. #1179  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by alexlam24 View Post
    You can thank 16&prego and Jersey boar

    Sent from HTC Note Ultra Pro on T-Mobile

    Exactly, there was a time when if a high school girl got pregnant she would be ashamed, hide it at all costs, the family would be beside themselves. Now we give them their own show on MTV.
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  5. #1180  
    JW4VZW's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by alexlam24 View Post
    You can thank 16&prego and Jersey boar

    Sent from HTC Note Ultra Pro on T-Mobile
    I hate that last show!
  6. #1181  
    qxr
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    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairclough View Post
    Well its a whole national level without gun control compared to a while national level with. I don't think a few states with gun control will make it 82x more teenage murders than a country with gun control all over.I think the whole nation would be a factor your saying 1 state with gun control is 4100x more likely to have teenage murders than a country with gun control. Your logic is seriously stuffed.

    - Android Central App. Remember courage is contagious.
    Cities have the gun control states can limit cc and make permits a pain in the rear asset but a state cannot override our constitution.


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  7. #1182  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by llamabreath View Post
    When's the last time you've seen a boycott work?
    Probably the time Rush Limbaugh had to apologize to Sandra Fluke. Many advertisers pulled out after Limbaugh made several negative comments on Fluke's testimony in Congress. I think if the advertisers didn't pull out, Limbaugh wouldn't have apologized at all. This obviously is not related to firearms (which is why I'm not going into too much detail about the Limbaugh-Fluke controversy), but I bring it up to give an example of a boycott that worked.

    With respect to mass shootings, some people claim that the media puts the spotlight on the shooters and makes them famous. Such coverage gives the impression that shooting up a place and killing innocent people is a great way to go down in history in a blaze of glory.

    I think people can boycott the advertisers and send a strong message to the media that making cold-blooded killers famous is wrong.
  8. #1183  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Right. I doubt many would.

    - Android Central App. Remember courage is contagious.
    Tom Fairclough
    Credo faber est quisque fortunae suae
    I believe every man is the artisan of his own fortune
  9. #1184  
    alexlam24's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Our news media is laughable

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  10. #1185  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    As for due to social family break downs being the cause of US teen murder rates per capita being 82x higher than Australia I doubt that's the cause.

    Our teens don't have access to guns which will take a life in a second. That's provably the difference.

    - Android Central App. Remember courage is contagious.
    Tom Fairclough
    Credo faber est quisque fortunae suae
    I believe every man is the artisan of his own fortune
  11. #1186  
    NoYankees44's Avatar

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    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairclough View Post
    As for due to social family break downs being the cause of US teen murder rates per capita being 82x higher than Australia I doubt that's the cause.

    Our teens don't have access to guns which will take a life in a second. That's provably the difference.

    - Android Central App. Remember courage is contagious.
    Which it if teens were in homes with responsible parents they would not either. They would also not ever think of using a gun.

    These are Murders. Intentional killings. I would be willing to bet mostly with illegal guns. These are not accidental killings from the big bad dangerous guns. Why not find fault with whatever is causing these troubled children to kill each other? O because that would mean blaming dead beat fathers, bad parenting, drug abuse, and general irresponsibility. You know things that people don't want to think about and find fault with themselves. Hard facts. Let's blame the guns instead. Let's disarm law abiding citizens. I mean why fix the real problem when another solution is available? Who cares what that solution costs us.

    Blaming societal issues on objects is taking the easy way out. With great power comes great responsibility. If you cannot handle the power than you are weak and lazy.
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  12. #1187  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Fairclough, some people in the states listen to a guy named Alex Jones and his infoWars channel. Check out this video:

    Troops Ordered To Kill All Americans Who Do Not Turn In Guns


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  13. #1188  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    So your saying that access to fire arms has nothing to do with teen murder rate? I think it does.

    I did watch that video. First the reporter seems to be a bit of a butter, sure nopd did some unethical actions. Do you really believe that's how gun control is emplaced?

    - Android Central App. Remember courage is contagious.
    Tom Fairclough
    Credo faber est quisque fortunae suae
    I believe every man is the artisan of his own fortune
  14. #1189  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    I think Alex Jones is just a cold and callous businessman who lives off the fear he generates in others. The more fear he puts into people, the more they shop in his inforwars store. I really don't think he believes anything he says. It's just my opinion.
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  15. #1190  
    NoYankees44's Avatar

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    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairclough View Post
    So your saying that access to fire arms has nothing to do with teen murder rate? I think it does.

    I did watch that video. First the reporter seems to be a bit of a butter, sure nopd did some unethical actions. Do you really believe that's how gun control is emplaced?

    - Android Central App. Remember courage is contagious.
    I am saying that blaming teen murders on guns instead of the societal issues that cause these teens to murder is ignorant and stupid. They cannot buy guns. They can only get them illegally or through irresponsible adults. Who is really to blame here?

    I don't expect someone that was never taught to respect guns to understand. They are powerful tools that can both save and destroy lives. I am sorry your society chose to give up that power instead of fixing the issues with itself directly. I am going to try and fix the bigger issues with my society instead of taking the easy way out.
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  16. #1191  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by NoYankees44 View Post
    ...I am sorry your society chose to give up that power instead of fixing the issues with itself directly. I am going to try and fix the bigger issues with my society instead of taking the easy way out....
    If it works for them, and they're happy with it, who are you to tell them that was the wrong way to fix it? and to tell them they took the easy way out?
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  17. #1192  
    NoYankees44's Avatar

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    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    If it works for them, and they're happy with it, who are you to tell them that was the wrong way to fix it?
    Who is he to tell us how to fix it?
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  18. #1193  
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    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by NoYankees44 View Post
    Who is he to tell us how to fix it?
    Have you never suggested advice you thought helpful to someone based on your experiences with a similar problem to one they have? No one is obligating anyone to follow said advise, but he's saying, "here's what we did and it worked". I'd imagine that we've all made similar statements to others at some point.

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  19. #1194  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by NoYankees44 View Post
    Who is he to tell us how to fix it?
    What we're doing certainly isn't working is it? Maybe they don't have people preaching how bad government is? or people on the radio saying the globalist are going to fly over your house in a black helicopter and take your guns away and then put you in a FEMA labor camp?
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  20. #1195  
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    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingIsTrue View Post
    Have you never suggested advice you thought helpful to someone based on your experiences with a similar problem to one they have? No one is obligating anyone to follow said advise, but he's saying, "here's what we did and it worked". I'd imagine that we've all made similar statements to others at some point.
    Yes as we have all also criticized the decisions others when choosing for ourselves.

    I merely presented the counter option. Fix the start of the problem instead of the end+accepting the consequences.
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  21. #1196  
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    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    What we're doing certainly isn't working is it? Maybe they don't have people preaching how bad government is? or people on the radio saying the globalist are going to fly over your house in a black helicopter and take your guns away and then put you in a FEMA labor camp?
    Ignoring that most of that has nothing to do with the conversation:

    What are we really doing to fix it? Glorifying "artists" that rap about drugs and killing people. Telling teens it's OK to have sex. Telling teens it is not shameful to get pregnant. Are we raging a war against dead beat fathers? Are we telling people it's not OK to not properly discipline and parent their children.

    No we are living in a society that allows our government to push us around. That is too lazy and stupid to take responsibility for themselves and those around them. That is OK being told by politicians that our success is dependent on them. That glorifies entitlements and leaching off of others.

    We are not doing anything to fix the issues while blaming guns that are merely objects. Copping out on the real problems. Refusing to face reality because that might mean taking personal responsibility. Which is always too much to ask apparently.
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  22. #1197  
    Darth Spock's Avatar

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    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by NoYankees44 View Post
    Yes as we have all also criticized the decisions others when choosing for ourselves.

    I merely presented the counter option. Fix the start of the problem instead of the end+accepting the consequences.
    Yep, and I have no issues with people expressing opposing opinions on how to solve problems, what the specific problems are, etc. I was just somewhat surprised to see the conversation devolve into "who are you" and "who is he" etc.

    I'd encourage people to recommend as many solutions or possible solutions as they can. Obviously a one size fits all and/or winner take all approach is not going to work, so common sense compromises based on strong philosophical and logical points seems to be the only possible approach to macropolitical issues.

    The role of civilian armament is deeply misunderstood and, as such, polarizing. As such, researching and considering as many perspectives as are available can only strengthen our ability to navigate the topic when it becomes time to consider legislatively reflecting the best of our values.

    There is no danger to us from trying to creatively define and resolve issues facing our community. None. There is a large danger in the idea of entrenching uninformed considerations above the common value of establishing a most free and just society (even if we don't all necessarily agree on the specifics of what that means).

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  23. #1198  
    Darth Spock's Avatar

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    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Think outside the box. Resent being confined within the box. Who's box is it anyways? Obviously we should never submit our thinking to someone else's limitations, but it may be worse to limit yourself by preconceptions.
    Learn.

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  24. #1199  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    I have no problem with someone for posing an idea, especially one that has worked for them. However, the United States faces obstacles that Australia doesn't have to deal with.

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  25. #1200  
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    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    If it works for them, and they're happy with it, who are you to tell them that was the wrong way to fix it? and to tell them they took the easy way out?
    Based on the pretext of your statement, obviously if it worked sufficiently and they are pleased with the results, then two things happen:
    1. I'm happy for them
    2. I'm curious if we can apply any of the methodology or lessons learned to our situation

    With that being said, I'm leery of trying to base all or part of our solutions solely on another model without considering the societal differences that present challenges that they may have dodged or challenges that they were presented with, in a varying degree. Furthermore, I'm not convinced that we can attribute their measure of success or our abject failure to this one variable, when as No Yankees44 and many others have pointed out, there are systemic cultural attitude issues that seem to be either highly correlated with or are themselves the root cause issues.

    We may not all agree on what the "right attitude" is, but it's hard to deny that we live in a culture that glorifies violence, selfishness and a criminal mindset. Armed or not, with specific weapons or not, those issues are tougher to solve and in my mind are much more potentially intrusive on liberties than any questions of which specific toys/tools/weapons the population possesses.

    It could be that an thus far not quantified paradigm shift occurred in Australia either just before, during or just after their legislation was enacted and that fact(?) accounts for more of the reduction in crime and violence that they’ve experienced than just the regulation on weapons alone. If probable, that’d imply that the majority of our work COULD be done by creating a healthier common attitude, with common sense regulations as a last 10% augment to successful execution on the larger and more important strategy.

    We live in a nation that’s almost completely unwilling to even have these conversations, so getting real information about root cause is at best difficult.

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