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  1. Thread Author  Thread Author    #1  
    Serial Fordicator's Avatar

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    Default Liberal

    I'm not intending this to be a thread to flame anyone. I just have a few questions.

    I always thought liberal mined people was against government and new laws. Did something change? Now if someone doesn't agree with something, they want it outlawed. Why?

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    Default Re: Liberal

    Not being one, I can't really speak for them, but here is my take on a middle of the road liberal: Generally I see them as pro-peace, pro-equality and pro-safety, in terms of work place, school, etc. regulation. The approach seems to be to build a society and economy that is strong at the base (lower classes) and therefore sturdier on the top. So regulations that protect and promote the wellbeing of the working class, particular the disenfranchised, increase educational quality and reduce discrimination are favorable, while regulations that restrict access to things like healthcare, education, job training and employment opportunities are unfavorable.

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  3. #3  

    Default Re: Liberal

    Are you sure you're thinking about liberals and not libertarians? Similar name, but different ideals. Your description sounds like you're think about libertarian.
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    Default Re: Liberal

    Quote Originally Posted by Serial Fordicator View Post
    I'm not intending this to be a thread to flame anyone. I just have a few questions.

    I always thought liberal mined people was against government and new laws. Did something change? Now if someone doesn't agree with something, they want it outlawed. Why?

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    Depends where you're from and from which period you are attempting to define the word.

    The definition of liberal now (in the us) is the polar opposite of the definition of the word as it was used in the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries. Starting somewhere about the 1920s the definition began to shift towards what are known as progressives. (Also commonly known as democrats)

    But, even into the 50s and 60s the liberals were only shadows of what they are now. During that time period, democrats and liberals were actually quite conservative, especially when it came to racial politics. The only similarity with those of today were expansive government and bureaucrats being a big focus of how government was actually run. Shortly after desegregation and the Civil Rights movement, both parties (and ideologies, really) began their slow transformation to what we have today.

    In many countries, the term liberal still describes what it originally did in the US, which is closer to a libertarian. (Also known as a classical liberal)

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    Default Re: Liberal

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    Are you sure you're thinking about liberals and not libertarians? Similar name, but different ideals. Your description sounds like you're think about libertarian.
    No, go back at least 20 years. Every liberal I knew hated the thought of someone making laws because they don't like something.

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    Default Re: Liberal

    Quote Originally Posted by Serial Fordicator View Post
    No, go back at least 20 years. Every liberal I knew hated the thought of someone making laws because they don't like something.

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    I wasn't even quite in my teens then and didn't pay attention to politics yet. So I essentially grew up under the current definition of liberal in the U.S.
  7. #7  

    Default Re: Liberal

    Quote Originally Posted by Serial Fordicator View Post
    No, go back at least 20 years. Every liberal I knew hated the thought of someone making laws because they don't like something.

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    Uh. More like 50-60 years. (At least)

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  8. #8  

    Default Re: Liberal

    I am a liberal, but not an American liberal.

    Why do I vote liberal? There honest, they might not make the politically liked choices with the public but in the end its the right decision and the public than soon sees that. My example will be John Howard. People hated the idea of off shore processing for illegal immigrants, they soon liked the idea as it stopped the deaths of hundreds of refugees on our coast, 9 years later opposition got in power changed that... now both parties want to go back to the liberal off shore processing. Liberals were backed by every pro gun section, they risked every seat which put them in power to stop the massacres of students who were shot down - successfully there hasn't been one since. Under Liberal, we established a strong relationship with China - our economy is almost dependent on them as our largest trading partner, note there was a offered treaty by them which had to be refused do to current treaties with the states. The biggest criticism they probably got was going into the war - which was required by our alliance with the states but during the Howard reign (till 2007) their was an incredible relationship with the States also (well mainly just with george bush ).

    They are willing to put their neck on the line for what is best for the country. Liberals here aren't necessary the super wealthy people who bought their way into power, their not uneducated people making redneck choices but they are very well educated. If you watch politics here, you might notice they are cheeky but the choose their words carefully (mainly because the courts can use parliament transcripts in the interpretation in the law granted the language provides so) but because they've all had previous backgrounds as lawyers and economists.

    We don't necessary out law everything, there is some tradition e.g revoking the carbon & mining tax, but some modern thought like government paying a person their full wage while they raise their child on the condition they plan to head back into the work force after due time.

    Matt, I think you hit it spot on. I am from a pretty white collar background on my fathers side, probably blue collar on my mothers but my fathers side has always been liberal for those fundamental values you put down. They although are being attacked for not wanting to boost the budget of high schools but that is only because the people accusing them are funding this boost by ripping the funding's from universities.

    Liberal to me, even though labour will disagree, seams to be the one more caring about the average person but they don't blow budgets to do so. They manage money smartly, I guess thats what happens when most of the whole team are lawyers and economists. As most of you can tell, I am pretty strong about my views and wont change easily.

    To go a bit off topic, I have mixed feelings with labour - all the supporters i met have been colourful to the extent a 70 year old told me to go f myself as i was wearing liberal coloured shorts without realizing while voting. However - I have met the politians children and 1 of them and they seem delightful. One at the Federal level, I swam with his son - his retiring from my section which makes voting a lot easier and 1 on the state level i've been to school with his son for 5 years and now at university with them. Probably the only two labour members I was glad to see keep their seats, the state one survived a massive swing of 9% against him. Probably the nicest guys I have met. The thing is just some of labour's policy just doesn't click with me - their big on spending with the idea the more you spend the more you keep out of a recession which seams unstable in my eyes. I have no hard feelins against labour, I love some of their members just not their policy. I guess thats the issue, sometimes its a choice whether you vote for the person or the policy
    Last edited by Fairclough; 08-22-2013 at 08:42 AM.
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    Default Re: Liberal

    This will be longer than usual for me, today seems to be a good day for the neurons.

    Equal rights for everyone.

    Equal pay for men and women. Why is this even a question?

    Separation of church and state. Keep religion out of politics. This is 90% of the problem with today's politics. Too many people believe the Rapture is right around the corner and therefore, have no qualms on pushing their radical agenda to destroy the progress of the past in favor of a promise from a book that has been altered many times over the millennia. Really. Just deal with reality, here and now.

    Sensible gun laws, back ground checks for everyone. If you're not doing anything illegal, don't worry about it. Nobody is talking about a National Registry, calm down. The NRA has a bigger database than you can imagine.

    Sensible immigration reform. Most people here illegally are people who have over stayed their visas. They want to work toward a better life. The same reason your parents/grand parents/great grand parents came here. Unless you're a pure blood Native American, you're an immigrant descendant too.

    My body belongs to me, keep your laws off of it. I shouldn't have to clarify this. But I will if pushed.

    The Federal government is essential, the state's do not have the resources to do it all. If you want to complain about taxes, start with the local taxes. Why have the local taxes skyrocketed? Because of federal cutbacks to the states. Civilized society requires some form of government, the money had to come from somewhere. We are a country of 315 million people, that costs money. I know my township didn't build the PA turnpike, that money came from the Feds.

    Just because I have mine, I don't begrudge you getting yours. We all have had help at some point, it's compassionate to help others help themselves. Not everyone can do it on their own. I don't care who you are or what you've done, you've needed help somewhere along the way from someone. Where would you be without it?

    Encourage people to vote, don't discourage them by putting up obstacles that impede the right to vote. We haven't needed photo ID laws for the past 237 years, what's the problem now? I can only guess...

    The world is a complicated place. No one can really appreciate the complexity of the issues that face today's leaders. We're all sideline quarter backs. Unless you're sitting in that chair in the Oval Office, you have no idea what the person in that chair has to deal with 24/7. Cut him some slack. Those on the left waited patiently for 8 years for a change, without the vitriol that has been spewed for the past 5 years by the right. The right can wait their turn, just like we waited. For those with a religious leaning, remember Ecclesiastes, 'to every thing there is a season'.

    Your turn will come again, and we will remember.

    My definition of liberal. And not afraid to fly THAT flag, by any means.

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    Default Re: Liberal

    I'm blue collar, but am tired of most of my check going to 50% of americans after I work 7 days a week away from home. There is no way half our country needs help. We are spoiled. We think we are broke if we can't afford a new iphone.

    I'm cutting this president the same slack as liberals, and me for that matter, cut George Bush. as far as equal pay, I agree unless one person can't do as much as another. If we are on a cruise ship and it goes down, I guess women and children don't come first. I also think more men shouldn't lose their kids in divorce. I'm all for equal rights and equal treatment.

    I agree your body is your business. If you want to kill yourself fine. I have a problem with the individual inside that has no voice. If we were to find an atom or a protein organism on another planet we consider it life, weird huh?

    We are crippling business in our own country by environmental laws that no one can prove. I want clean water and air too, but before someone shoots to outlaw something because they think its dangerous for the environment, they need to research first. See the new lightbulbs that contain mercury but are supposedly better for the environment. Also see ethanol.

    I have no problem who wants to come here, but don't expect me to learn your native language and dont try to turn this into the @#$%hole you left.

    I also hear people complaing about christianity, then won't say anything about Islam. Why?
    Last edited by Serial Fordicator; 08-22-2013 at 06:02 PM.
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  11. Thread Author  Thread Author    #11  
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    Default Re: Liberal

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairclough View Post
    I am a liberal, but not an American liberal.

    Why do I vote liberal? There honest, they might not make the politically liked choices with the public but in the end its the right decision and the public than soon sees that. My example will be John Howard. People hated the idea of off shore processing for illegal immigrants, they soon liked the idea as it stopped the deaths of hundreds of refugees on our coast, 9 years later opposition got in power changed that... now both parties want to go back to the liberal off shore processing. Liberals were backed by every pro gun section, they risked every seat which put them in power to stop the massacres of students who were shot down - successfully there hasn't been one since. Under Liberal, we established a strong relationship with China - our economy is almost dependent on them as our largest trading partner, note there was a offered treaty by them which had to be refused do to current treaties with the states. The biggest criticism they probably got was going into the war - which was required by our alliance with the states but during the Howard reign (till 2007) their was an incredible relationship with the States also (well mainly just with george bush ).

    They are willing to put their neck on the line for what is best for the country. Liberals here aren't necessary the super wealthy people who bought their way into power, their not uneducated people making redneck choices but they are very well educated. If you watch politics here, you might notice they are cheeky but the choose their words carefully (mainly because the courts can use parliament transcripts in the interpretation in the law granted the language provides so) but because they've all had previous backgrounds as lawyers and economists.

    We don't necessary out law everything, there is some tradition e.g revoking the carbon & mining tax, but some modern thought like government paying a person their full wage while they raise their child on the condition they plan to head back into the work force after due time.

    Matt, I think you hit it spot on. I am from a pretty white collar background on my fathers side, probably blue collar on my mothers but my fathers side has always been liberal for those fundamental values you put down. They although are being attacked for not wanting to boost the budget of high schools but that is only because the people accusing them are funding this boost by ripping the funding's from universities.

    Liberal to me, even though labour will disagree, seams to be the one more caring about the average person but they don't blow budgets to do so. They manage money smartly, I guess thats what happens when most of the whole team are lawyers and economists. As most of you can tell, I am pretty strong about my views and wont change easily.

    To go a bit off topic, I have mixed feelings with labour - all the supporters i met have been colourful to the extent a 70 year old told me to go f myself as i was wearing liberal coloured shorts without realizing while voting. However - I have met the politians children and 1 of them and they seem delightful. One at the Federal level, I swam with his son - his retiring from my section which makes voting a lot easier and 1 on the state level i've been to school with his son for 5 years and now at university with them. Probably the only two labour members I was glad to see keep their seats, the state one survived a massive swing of 9% against him. Probably the nicest guys I have met. The thing is just some of labour's policy just doesn't click with me - their big on spending with the idea the more you spend the more you keep out of a recession which seams unstable in my eyes. I have no hard feelins against labour, I love some of their members just not their policy. I guess thats the issue, sometimes its a choice whether you vote for the person or the policy
    Right choices? wow.

    Put their neck on the line? Like Hillary did after Bengazi?

    They aren't rich? See Nancy Pelosi, John Kerry. Alot of our Democratic reps are invested in Brazilian oil companies. Ever wonder why there is a big stink to drill here where we have some of the most strict environmental laws on earth? Ever wonder why GE didn't pay taxes a couple of years ago? Obama appointed Jeffery Immelt his job Czar to keep jobs here. Funny, but GE is one of our biggest outsourcers. (They also lobby very well) They are the ones that make the new light bulb that is only made in China too. I wonder why we outlawed the old bulbs?
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    Default Re: Liberal

    Serial, I thought the idea of this was an intellectual ideological conversation. You seem to have taken some of someone else's perspective personally. I don't believe thar was the intent. I don't agree personally with the way the terms have been defined, as they don't wholly reflect my views. However I'm not sure laying out the faults of one "side" doesn't seem to be what I took from the question asked. No "side" is without fault, and the laundry list you gave could be justifiably countered with a littany from those of opposed views. But none of that helps to define either side. It just exacerbates an already touchy topic.

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    Default Re: Liberal

    Quote Originally Posted by ses2017 View Post
    Serial, I thought the idea of this was an intellectual ideological conversation. You seem to have taken some of someone else's perspective personally. I don't believe thar was the intent. I don't agree personally with the way the terms have been defined, as they don't wholly reflect my views. However I'm not sure laying out the faults of one "side" doesn't seem to be what I took from the question asked. No "side" is without fault, and the laundry list you gave could be justifiably countered with a littany from those of opposed views. But none of that helps to define either side. It just exacerbates an already touchy topic.
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    I wholeheartedly agree. I didn't mean for any of my posts to come across mean. I know, on some things, I will never change anyones mind. I also know on some, they will never change mine. I can't type alot so if I sound like I am putting down, I'm not, Its just 1. I am at work and busy and 2. I know some things arent worth arguing about.
    As far as me calling out one side, don't think I don't blame the other for things, I just don't have alot of time to expain why both sides suck, and just explain the one that they are talking about.
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    Default Re: Liberal

    I'll gladly stipulate that both sides do have their moments of suck, and we, as voters have the good fortune to try to divine the least amount of suck for our vote

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    Default Re: Liberal

    Quote Originally Posted by ses2017 View Post
    I'll gladly stipulate that both sides do have their moments of suck, and we, as voters have the good fortune to try to divine the least amount of suck for our vote

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    This is why I am an independent. I will not blindly follow any party just because I want to fit in or that they tell me to.
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    Default Re: Liberal

    Quote Originally Posted by Serial Fordicator View Post
    This is why I am an independent. I will not blindly follow any party just because I want to fit in or that they tell me to.
    Im independent also because I vote for who I honestly believe will do the best job of being president, party is irrelevant. And yes, most of the times both candidates suck so at that point I will choose the lesser of two evils

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  17. #17  

    Default Re: Liberal

    Quote Originally Posted by ses2017 View Post
    Serial, I thought the idea of this was an intellectual ideological conversation. You seem to have taken some of someone else's perspective personally. I don't believe thar was the intent. I don't agree personally with the way the terms have been defined, as they don't wholly reflect my views. However I'm not sure laying out the faults of one "side" doesn't seem to be what I took from the question asked. No "side" is without fault, and the laundry list you gave could be justifiably countered with a littany from those of opposed views. But none of that helps to define either side. It just exacerbates an already touchy topic.

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    I think he was more pointing out that a lot of the common perceptions regarding certain parties aren't true.

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  18. #18  

    Default

    I'm out at breaky, my libea is Australia librel. I'll expand later. Edit: there a few super rich politicians where I am from besides the prime minister and that's basically his wife's money

    A few of the liberals are from a refugee background, who have worked their way up the social later. Others average blokes who receives a good education, the former opposition leader was from a single father who was broke and he ended up studying law to make something of himself. Same with the current gov deputy.


    To say their all rich would be a lie. Most are from average families over here who just learnt law or econs than got into politics.

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    Last edited by Fairclough; 08-22-2013 at 10:44 PM.
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  19. #19  

    Default Re: Liberal

    Quote Originally Posted by msndrstood View Post
    This will be longer than usual for me, today seems to be a good day for the neurons.

    Equal rights for everyone.

    Equal pay for men and women. Why is this even a question?

    Separation of church and state. Keep religion out of politics. This is 90% of the problem with today's politics. Too many people believe the Rapture is right around the corner and therefore, have no qualms on pushing their radical agenda to destroy the progress of the past in favor of a promise from a book that has been altered many times over the millennia. Really. Just deal with reality, here and now.

    Sensible gun laws, back ground checks for everyone. If you're not doing anything illegal, don't worry about it. Nobody is talking about a National Registry, calm down. The NRA has a bigger database than you can imagine.

    Sensible immigration reform. Most people here illegally are people who have over stayed their visas. They want to work toward a better life. The same reason your parents/grand parents/great grand parents came here. Unless you're a pure blood Native American, you're an immigrant descendant too.

    My body belongs to me, keep your laws off of it. I shouldn't have to clarify this. But I will if pushed.

    The Federal government is essential, the state's do not have the resources to do it all. If you want to complain about taxes, start with the local taxes. Why have the local taxes skyrocketed? Because of federal cutbacks to the states. Civilized society requires some form of government, the money had to come from somewhere. We are a country of 315 million people, that costs money. I know my township didn't build the PA turnpike, that money came from the Feds.

    Just because I have mine, I don't begrudge you getting yours. We all have had help at some point, it's compassionate to help others help themselves. Not everyone can do it on their own. I don't care who you are or what you've done, you've needed help somewhere along the way from someone. Where would you be without it?

    Encourage people to vote, don't discourage them by putting up obstacles that impede the right to vote. We haven't needed photo ID laws for the past 237 years, what's the problem now? I can only guess...

    The world is a complicated place. No one can really appreciate the complexity of the issues that face today's leaders. We're all sideline quarter backs. Unless you're sitting in that chair in the Oval Office, you have no idea what the person in that chair has to deal with 24/7. Cut him some slack. Those on the left waited patiently for 8 years for a change, without the vitriol that has been spewed for the past 5 years by the right. The right can wait their turn, just like we waited. For those with a religious leaning, remember Ecclesiastes, 'to every thing there is a season'.

    Your turn will come again, and we will remember.

    My definition of liberal. And not afraid to fly THAT flag, by any means.

    And 3.... 2.....1......


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  20. Thread Author  Thread Author    #20  
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    Default Re: Liberal

    I guess this is what I'm talking about.



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    Default Re: Liberal

    Quote Originally Posted by Serial Fordicator View Post
    I guess this is what I'm talking about.



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    I'm sorry, I can't abide that man. So I didn't watch the video. Can you just summarize your point for me?

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    Default Re: Liberal

    Quote Originally Posted by serial fordicator View Post
    i guess this is what i'm talking about.



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  23. #23  

    Default Re: Liberal

    Would you like me to buy you a toilet?

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  24. Thread Author  Thread Author    #24  
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    Default Re: Liberal

    No, but I agree with him on people being obtrusive in my house telling me what I have to buy. If someone believes something fine, just don't force me to do it.
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    Default Re: Liberal

    Exactly how I feel about religion.

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