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  1. #3051  

    Default

    I know that, its the opposite to ours - ours states government authority. I just love bow naive you guys sound. I would expect out of all people L2R that would want a restriction on at least automatic and semi automatic weapons.

    Posted via Android Central App
    Tom Fairclough
    Credo faber est quisque fortunae suae
    I believe every man is the artisan of his own fortune
  2. #3052  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairclough View Post
    I just love bow naive you guys sound. I would expect out of all people L2R that would want a restriction on at least automatic and semi automatic weapons.
    Personally I don't think I am the one that is sounding naive....

    (naive
    nīˈēv
    adjective
    1.
    (of a person or action) showing a lack of experience, wisdom, or judgment.
    "the rather naive young man had been totally misled")



    Why do you say that?

    There have been restrictions on automatic weapons in the US for decades, it was called the firearm owners protection act. It was passed in 1986 and is still on the books. This prohibited civilians from owning fully automatic weapons (machine guns) that were manufactured after the law was passed. Now civilians can still purchase and own machine guns that were manufactured prior to the date the law was passed. However they are highly restricted, you must receive approval from your local county sheriff, then under go an extensive background check not only from the ATF, but from the FBI as well. This can take over a year to complete. There are also several fee's that make the licensing prohibitively expensive. Now once you complete all the paper work, pay your fee's, get your license, and your machine gun. ANYTIME you want to transport it from your house you MUST notify the local sheriff 48-72 hours in advance. Failure to do so WILL result in loss of license, weapon, fines, and automatic jail time. MOST if not all shooting ranges will not allow you to target practice with this weapon due to insurance liability.

    Since this law was passed there has only been 1 crime committed with a fully automatic weapon in the US. An off duty cop used his department issued automatic Uzi to rob a bank.
    -------------

    I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but from your more recent comments it's clear that you really don't know much if anything about US gun laws. Which is fine because you do not live here, but I would think it's in your best interest to learn a little bit before you start making blanket statements. If your not clear on something ask a question on here or even send me a pm if you want. If I can help I will, if not I'm sure we can find someone willing to help.
    Last edited by Live2ride883; 08-24-2013 at 12:32 AM.
    I miss my friend Matt McQuinn he touched so many lives, and in the end gave his life to protect someone that he loved. I am proud to have known him, and of the choices he made when it mattered. You were a true hero.

    "You would not fear my weapon unless your intentions were to provoke my using it"
  3. #3053  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairclough View Post
    I know that, its the opposite to ours - ours states government authority. I just love bow naive you guys sound. I would expect out of all people L2R that would want a restriction on at least automatic and semi automatic weapons.

    Posted via Android Central App
    How do they sound naive? They aren't the ones saying that, in the case of a home intruder that may or may not have a weapon, you should just call the authorities and hope they get there fast enough. They're not the ones trying to portray the US as the only country with some crime that could be prevented if citizens have guns.

    A lot of gun control advocates live in lala land. Sensible regulation is perfectly fine; regulation that chokes the life out of gun rights and unrealistically attempts to end gun crime isn't.

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
  4. #3054  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairclough View Post
    Watch the video.
    Fact is both got banned, that is such a small difference its minute. I still haven't been told if it wasn't gun control which stopper massacres here what did.

    Posted via Android Central App
    The difference between a gun that can fire multiple rounds with one squeeze of the trigger and one that requires a full release of the trigger before the next round can be fired is minute? On what planet?

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
  5. #3055  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    "Why do you say that?"
    Because I find it naive that you fail to recognize that after your on encounter that if such weapon was restricted from the public, unfortunate event's, like your own, Port Arthur wouldn't off occurred. The numbers on injuries would of been far lower, if simply the access to semi and automatic rifles were completely banned - No exception to previous manufacturing, previous ownership. If you simply look in the last serious of the videoes I attatched, there is a farmer - very similar views to your own. He discusses how he originally thought it was a government over reaction, but than when time went on he came to conclusion that i was for the best and that if he genuinely had a requirement to have such high powered weaponry he could if he met all the requirements. The next bit in italics, I understand you had a friend in Aurora, I don't mean to stir fresh emotions so - skip over it you wish.
    I looked into the tragic even of your friend in Aurora, as it was on our news aswell. Police arrived within 90 seconds, which is a estimate to their response time. Some people reported the shooting via tweets or text messaging rather than calling the police. If they did the opposite I am sure they would arrived on the scene quicker! Now if restricted laws would be in place, lets say ours. His weapon would be still in the range, it would be a hand gun. He would be still a year short of being allowed to bring it home. Now, lets say if he only had a hand gun - if some how he proved he needed on. I think that would be able to pump out a lot less rounds than an semi automatic rifle. That would have a significantly lower fatality rate, increase allowance for movie goers to flee between the reloading of rounds.

    I see your meaning of high restricted is different to mine, I understand you cannot have access to them without applying that it is time consuming and so forth. How high restricted means, its practically impossible to get it. You have to obtain as licence, than prove why you need a high class than so on and than onward semi's and automatics are still banned. I don't take offense to your posts, I would know my legality experience is different from yours as were obviously from other area's. I simply try to display - even though the difficulty which there is to naviagate through the law - there can be a way to put sufficient laws inplace to prevent these crimes from occuring. Maybe out standards of highly restricted is different, I view that its ok for a person to own a gun to go the range, for their employment and so forth. Provided there is strong fall safes that event's like this don't occur. Our fall safes are that for hand gun ownership you have to go the range x times a year, for the first few years your gun must be at the range and than you can bring it home after that time once you have a sufficient safe, still go to the range etc. Obviously this is slightly tweaked for rural citizens, where cattle is their bread and butter but the gist is your restricted to a weapon which has limited damage compared to an automatic or semi weapon and only those who have genuine need will have one.


    Quote Originally Posted by JHBThree View Post
    A lot of gun control advocates live in lala land. Sensible regulation is perfectly fine; regulation that chokes the life out of gun rights and unrealistically attempts to end gun crime isn't.

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
    You know I am not suggesting a choke, but a system which only allows those with genuine need to have a gun.
    Quote Originally Posted by JHBThree View Post
    The difference between a gun that can fire multiple rounds with one squeeze of the trigger and one that requires a full release of the trigger before the next round can be fired is minute? On what planet?
    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
    When you compare it a non automatic or semi hand gun, were its limited to x bullets it does make a difference which is seamed to be minute. Planet Earth by the way, which the Virginia Fire arms assos. Failed to realise - when they said there was no country which had stopped massacres with gun law. They than stated, there was no massacres in those countries prior when they were told there was one every year, they responded "Oh i never knew that, is a massacre 2 killings" it was replied with "More than 4" the guy than paused. Watch the video, you might learn something about our system - ours still has room to go compared to a few other nations but its a start.
    Tom Fairclough
    Credo faber est quisque fortunae suae
    I believe every man is the artisan of his own fortune
  6. #3056  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    The police station in Aurora is approximately 2000 feet from the theater where the shooting took place.

    Back to the auto vs semi-auto for a second, with an ar15 like James Holmes used you cannot simply pull the trigger as fast as your can until you run out of bullets. They tend to over heat and the feeding mechanism on the 100 round drum type magazines frequently jam.

    I find it reprehensible that anyone would use a tragedy like Aurora, or Newtown to achieve a political goal. Within hours of these events politicians and their lap dog media clowns were screaming that we have to do something about the guns, guns are evil, it's all the guns fault...

    Honestly, I think I am about done commenting this thread at least for awhile.
    Last edited by Live2ride883; 08-24-2013 at 03:45 AM.
    I miss my friend Matt McQuinn he touched so many lives, and in the end gave his life to protect someone that he loved. I am proud to have known him, and of the choices he made when it mattered. You were a true hero.

    "You would not fear my weapon unless your intentions were to provoke my using it"
  7. #3057  
    llamabreath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Fairclough, can't you see that banning this or outlawing that doesn't really make much difference?

    Isn't the slaughter of groups of people already illegal? The wanton murder of one, illegal?

    These "people" couldn't care less about the law.

  8. #3058  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Danny, the fact is since legislation has passed in country with strict gun laws massacres have been eradicated. If you will please watch the american slightly comedic show it will express this in a light heartened way. It has gone from a massacre every year to no massacres. Approximately 100 lives have been saved from it personally I believe that's worth tightening laws, if you multiple that out for the us population size that's 1600 lives saved from shootings.

    Posted via Android Central App
    Tom Fairclough
    Credo faber est quisque fortunae suae
    I believe every man is the artisan of his own fortune
  9. #3059  
    Darth Spock's Avatar

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    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Isn't shooting 70 people already banned?

    Nexus through spacetime.
  10. #3060  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Come on Matt, read the above post
    Simple terms, tighter gun laws = zero massacres in same time frame where 102 died prior (1634 if it was in US by multiply population factor).
    Tom Fairclough
    Credo faber est quisque fortunae suae
    I believe every man is the artisan of his own fortune
  11. #3061  
    llamabreath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairclough View Post
    Simple terms, tighter gun laws = zero massacres in same time frame where 102 died prior (1634 if it was in US by multiply population factor).
    Wouldn't cutting down the whole diseased tree and uprooting it be even better than cutting off a branch?

  12. #3062  
    Darth Spock's Avatar

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    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairclough View Post
    Come on Matt, read the above post
    Simple terms, tighter gun laws = zero massacres in same time frame where 102 died prior (1634 if it was in US by multiply population factor).
    Yeah, I understand that successful control mitigates usage, but laws by themselves do not without enforcement.

    What I mean by that, is that there is a small but very vocal and very fervent base of people in the US that are not going to just turn in their firearms. There are land borders, which Australia and Japan lack, that allow people to drive illegal weapons in and out of the country. There are absolutely militant people that are going to horde and stash weapons and they already view any attempt at reasonable regulation as fascist attacks on their personal rights. How will they react to the government demanding all weapons be turned in?

    Australia's results (and more so those in Japan) are amazing and if the same results were feasible here, there would be more support for those types of measures. Here it would take a constitutional amendment, a voter overthrow of corporate puppet legislatures, creating a very different political landscape and it probably will not be bloodless. It won't be the war or revolution that some nutjobs want it to be, but if there were less than 100,000 civilians killed in those efforts, I'd be shocked. But prior to all of that, there would have to be an attitude change.

    The US doesn't want the government to tell the people what they can and cannot do any more than is absolutely necessary. We purposely limit what privileges the government has and get angry when they stretch those bounds that are put upon it. Obviously by letting corporations buy the entire thing we've been pretty damned lax in our moderation, but that's why there is such a visceral reaction... both sides are trying to figure out how to get this crap under control.

    When you think about it, while horrible and dramatic and sad, these massacres, hell, even the insane body count our guns rack up every year, are such a tiny percentage of deaths in our country that, while important, this issue has to take a back seat to more pressing, more urgent priorities. It's embarrassing to have the most violent civilized country with the worst most expensive healthcare and a major part of the population that wants to rewrite the only Constitution on earth that purposefully left the word God out of it into a theocracy. But right now that same Constitution guarantees the right to bear arms to the People and the current interpretation is that this means the public has a right to private ownership with as little restriction as possible.

    If the attitudes do not change, just writing a law won't do a thing. Like I said, it's already illegal to murder. Why specify what tools of murder a murderer ought to use?
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  13. #3063  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Here's what I don't understand. People don't seem to understand that laws will not affect lawless people so they want to infringe on everyone's rights. If we do that on every point of contention before long no one will have rights anymore. I think they need to address it from the other side. Meaning sentencing. If you are caught committing a crime with a firearm , in possession of a firearm while on probation , or caught with a firearm after having a felony on your record, the penalties for such need to be increased to the point to where no one would even contemplate doing such things. The punishments for these crimes are not near as harsh as they should be. I know this would not stop everything, but regardless of what you do you're not going to stop everything
    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
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  14. #3064  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    I definitely agree that there needs to be tough action - however, I believe that does nip the issue at the roots. Originally, we had an up roar like you are seeing in the states - claims of rights, government take over, foreigners will take over, defending of property etc. Its all been seen before. We were lucky enough to have a government which was generous to buy back guns, about $715 on average per gun in 1996, I am not sure what that is in today's dollars but thats a fair bit. Our constitution, is based on what rights the government has, they have no dictatorship over guns, it was a state level i believe. Luckily. our law states if there is a conflict between state and federal law, federal law trumps for only where the discrepancy lays. In order to do so, John Howard, Force the hands of every state to sign an national agreement to outlaw automatics and semi's, he forced this by saying if it wasn't to occur a national referendum (vote of every citizen) will take place to change the constitution to do so. Thus at the federal level they banned imports.

    We were glad to have politicians who were willing sacrifice their career, John Howard's party - liberal's main supports were the conservatives. Alienating them is political nightmare, but he had to as he had 35 dead bodies in the first year he was prime minister. The first year. So within 3 months he got this all under control. Queensland's premier was out of the job the next election, but they still held the majority. We were lucky our Gun Lobbyst's aren't as well financed as the NRA that would create fear in our politicians. I guess I am glad, a lot of our politicians are from middle class families.

    Our ban, was aimed to cut our the main weapons of choice, anything which can be used to "drop" people quickly, not just ban but limit complete access. Its like how would you build a bomb, if you cant import the parts. The fact is massacres have been stopped. To be honest, people still have hand guns and shot guns, just not automatics and semi's. We have a register which made it easier to list, who hasn't handed their gun. You had a time frame to register etc. The restriction, wasn't all smooth sailing for a stage our prime minister wore bullet proof vests for the fear of being shot. (Usually if his walking, people walk up and hug him and his fine, he has been criticised for allowing someone with a screw drive do it - so for him to wear a vest is a big statement)

    I do agree, there are bigger issues like health care and its affordability, quality, prison sentences but I just view if you get rid of Semi's and Automatic weapons, it will restrict the limits of criminals.
    Last edited by Fairclough; 08-24-2013 at 09:23 AM.
    Tom Fairclough
    Credo faber est quisque fortunae suae
    I believe every man is the artisan of his own fortune
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  15. #3065  
    Serial Fordicator's Avatar

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    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    You keep talking about Port Arthur. You do realize more people have been saved by access to guns than when a loon has mass murders. Trust me, you hear about all of these mass shootings by the media, but you never hear about the the people that save themselves and /or others with a gun.

    This was 7 days ago Woman with Concealed Carry Handgun Stops Six Robbers at Houston Denny's
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  16. #3066  
    llamabreath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    And the woman in Atlanta, who hid with her children in her attic when an intruder broke in.

    She was able to get out of the situation by shooting him while her husband on the phone encouraged her to do it.

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  17. #3067  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    And the senior citizen in Florida who stopped an internet cafe armed robbery . The media never reports these stories but there are plenty of them out there.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
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  18. #3068  
    I miss my friend Matt McQuinn he touched so many lives, and in the end gave his life to protect someone that he loved. I am proud to have known him, and of the choices he made when it mattered. You were a true hero.

    "You would not fear my weapon unless your intentions were to provoke my using it"
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  19. #3069  

    Default Firearms and self-defense

    The currently active thread on gun control seems to be focusing on massacre's, and the recent murders of Chris Lane & Delbert "Shorty" Belton. While this type of thread can be and is informative they tend to drift off into 'Let's ban this, and let's ban that' and then the pro-gun crowd (myself included) are put on the defensive.

    The media will broadcast nationally when criminals use guns to murder people, but yet stories of people using guns to defend themselves, their families are often only broadcast at a local level.

    This thread isn't about gun control, this thread is about those people that defend their family, homes from criminals that would do them harm.

    As far as this thread goes, please leave your thoughts about gun control at the door it has no place here. Even if you hate guns with every breath you take I am almost certain that at some point where you live you either have heard or will hear about a story like this. I hope you will share that story with us...

    Please provide links to the story or video where possible.

    15-Year-Old Boy Uses Dad’s AR15 to Fight Off Intruders (video) | The TF&G Report
    I miss my friend Matt McQuinn he touched so many lives, and in the end gave his life to protect someone that he loved. I am proud to have known him, and of the choices he made when it mattered. You were a true hero.

    "You would not fear my weapon unless your intentions were to provoke my using it"
  20. #3070  

    Default Re: Firearms and self-defense

    While I'm confused about the direction this thread should take, cheetah/bear/etc spray is illegal in NY and I've always carried it on my person. If I were allowed to carry concealed, I would.

    Every person in my home knows how to operate the shotgun we need to use if we ever need protection. The idea of living in a home without a gun is absolutely foreign to me and I wouldn't sleep half as well. We've had a rash of burglaries in the area and we were all target shooting in the backyard. When it comes to personal protection, I do not give a damn about the other person if they are threatening my well-being.

    I commend those kids and their parents for knowing how to protect themselves, but there is a huge problem with gun owners not being responsible and children getting ahold of weapons. There are also the geniuses who don't unload their guns before cleaning them. And the bright ones who look down the barrel while the safety is off. The idiots who bring loaded guns into bars and nightclubs and shoot themselves in the legs. I rarely hear of people protecting themselves, but I hear a lot about people accidentally shooting themselves, or killing themselves due to ignorance. Owning a gun is a responsibility and one you should not take lightly.
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  21. #3071  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairclough View Post
    You know I am not suggesting a choke, but a system which only allows those with genuine need to have a gun.
    Who determines what constitutes a genuine need? The government? They have shown themselves to lack the impartiality necessary. The states? Again, a patchwork of differing opinions on gun control would make it impossible. A third party? None that would be willing are impartial.

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
  22. #3072  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairclough View Post
    Danny, the fact is since legislation has passed in country with strict gun laws massacres have been eradicated. If you will please watch the american slightly comedic show it will express this in a light heartened way. It has gone from a massacre every year to no massacres. Approximately 100 lives have been saved from it personally I believe that's worth tightening laws, if you multiple that out for the us population size that's 1600 lives saved from shootings.

    Posted via Android Central App
    I would wager the cause and effect is not as strong as you may be believe. It never is when you're dealing with something as complex as violence.

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
  23. #3073  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairclough View Post
    Come on Matt, read the above post
    Simple terms, tighter gun laws = zero massacres in same time frame where 102 died prior (1634 if it was in US by multiply population factor).
    Its far more complicated that. Crime as a whole has been in decline worldwide, and there are so many other factors involved that its ludicrous to simplify it in that manner.

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
  24. #3074  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by Serial Fordicator View Post
    You keep talking about Port Arthur. You do realize more people have been saved by access to guns than when a loon has mass murders. Trust me, you hear about all of these mass shootings by the media, but you never hear about the the people that save themselves and /or others with a gun.

    This was 7 days ago Woman with Concealed Carry Handgun Stops Six Robbers at Houston Denny's
    You know what is ironic, my brother had stopped a 5 robbers before. Not even lying, they were trying to climb into a roof of a liquor store. He called the police, 2 k9 units came and they were all arrested. You don't need a gun!
    Quote Originally Posted by llamabreath View Post
    And the woman in Atlanta, who hid with her children in her attic when an intruder broke in.

    She was able to get out of the situation by shooting him while her husband on the phone encouraged her to do it.
    So now your saying ever theft should be shot? why don't we chop their hand off while were at it!

    Quote Originally Posted by JHBThree View Post
    Who determines what constitutes a genuine need? The government? They have shown themselves to lack the impartiality necessary. The states? Again, a patchwork of differing opinions on gun control would make it impossible. A third party? None that would be willing are impartial.
    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
    There is basically a check list, for enthusiasts if you read my previous posts show this by going to the range x times a year, at this stage for the first year or so their gun is held there. Then after a time period if they meet the storage requirements etc they can bring it home. If your business depends on the weapone.g your a farmer you can have lower powered semi etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by JHBThree View Post
    Its far more complicated that. Crime as a whole has been in decline worldwide, and there are so many other factors involved that its ludicrous to simplify it in that manner.
    So your staying, an average of 8 dead year from massacres, mysteriously dropped after gun legislation, because crime as a whole is on the down fall in the world? It just choose that year by lack from having 13 massacres in 18 years to zero in 16 years after. That doesn't seam like the result of crime going down a whole by itself to me.
    Tom Fairclough
    Credo faber est quisque fortunae suae
    I believe every man is the artisan of his own fortune
  25. #3075  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    I actually read that whole thing, I would like 10 minutes of my life back with that rubbish.
    I liked how they tried to do that assault rate, its momentum was lost after gun laws. Crime platitude than dropped sharply again.
    I suggest you read a non bias site, i've read through their other articles it looks like a joke.
    In Japan, which has very strict laws, only 11 people were killed with guns in 2008, compared with 12,000 deaths by firearms that year in the United States a huge disparity even accounting for the difference in population.
    This actually suggests opposite to some of the data on that website.

    Australian Institute of Criminology - Homicide statistics
    Did gun control work in Australia?
    http://andrewleigh.org/pdf/GunBuyback_Panel.pdf
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/18/op...work.html?_r=0
    Gun control: After Connecticut shooting, could Australia's laws provide a lesson?
    Gun Control in Australia -> I BELIEVE THIS IS US FACT CHECKING SITE!
    How Australia And Other Developed Nations Have Put A Stop To Gun Violence | Business Insider Australia
    Tom Fairclough
    Credo faber est quisque fortunae suae
    I believe every man is the artisan of his own fortune

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