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  1. #4076  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by KiwiGrrl View Post
    I found this amusing, given what the Queensland government has done recently. They may not have removed peoples legal right to ride a motorcycle, but they've severely limited the ability of certain groups to ride their motorcycles as they like and as a result, affected the ability of others to enjoy their motorcycles as they see fit. With all that, I don't really think it's too far fetched for them to extend that to cars/trucks/SUV's if they feel they need to, and considering how quickly they pushed through VLAD and the associated bills, it could literally happen overnight without any discussion with ordinary tax paying, law abiding citizens.

    Also, did you know that Australia has a Constitution but it doesn't have a Bill of Rights? No, I'm not being cheeky asking that. I know a few Aussies that aren't aware of it and only learned themselves when researching VLAD.

    You keep saying this, but it's still not exactly true. Australians have never had a constitutional right to gun ownership and there has always been gun control. Sure, it was decided by the States (well, the Colonies first) and not at a federal level, but gun ownership was never as pervasive and it was always restricted to certain groups. I know you think it's Little America* over there, but it's not. They are not the same country and they don't have the same issues. And sure, you're statistically less likely to have a gun to your head on the streets of Sydney, but it's not an absolute impossibility. The only way to truly eradicate gun violence is to completely eradicate guns from society.

    *I'm curious about this. Only time I've ever heard it referred to as that was when John Howard found a surefire way to push his pro-US agenda with Ol' Dubya ... and it wasn't meant as a compliment, if ya know what I mean.
    *Looks down at her manhood* ...

    Though I'm not really a huge 'supporter' persay. There are parts of the second amendment argument that drive me a little nuts, but I certainly reserve my right to be able to pack my little pistol in my little leather fanny pack and ride off in to the sunset with it if I want.
    For those who do not know VLAD is a series law in place to prevent organisations who identify themselves as bikies. Those who don't know Bikies e.g. The Coffin Cheaters, Hells Angels Etc our equivalent of Crims and Bloods. The law inturn means that if you are deemed to be member or associate of a gang and commit a crime a further 15 years is added to your sentence and if you are a leader in the gang another 10 in attempt to demolish gang culture. There are other small amendments like the assaulting of a police office is 1 year sentence, non associates of gangs have a 3 strike policy of a compulsory 1 year from any service e.g. fire, ambulance or police. Oh Yes the punishments are extremly brutal, this isn't designed to target 'motorbike' riders just those who identify themselves with a criminal gang.

    The reasn VLAD got pushed so quickly, Queensland is one of the only states not to have a senate. The only line of defence is the Queens Council.

    Yes I know we have no bill of rights, we presume we have freedom of speech due to lack of a written document saying we don't. Yes you would be correct gun laws were down to the individual states - but these states almost had minimal restrictions on guns. Some states almost let anyone obtain a gun. If there was so much 'restrictions' prior to our federal taking control, why were the states so scared of losing this power? because there was limited control, yes some control pushing into the 80s and 90s after massicres but not overly great. This is why the government basically had to force every state into giving the powers to the federal government and the federal government blocking imports. Yes our constitution never had any mention of guns, why the state level was forced. The Howard Government threatened that if they were not to sign the agreement, he would take the issue to a referendum where it was almost guaranteed that the consitution would be modified to allow the federal body to have control over firearms.

    Hehe Johny Howard, I love that man.
    Tom Fairclough
    Credo faber est quisque fortunae suae
    I believe every man is the artisan of his own fortune
  2. #4077  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by TXGTOU View Post
    My assertion isn't meant as a blanket statement. I actually thought about some of the women I know that have aligned themselves with the very adamant 2nd amendment guys in a show of support. I liken it to some of the women that live in Saudi and support the oppressive conditions. "Well my husband doesn't believe a woman should be given the right to drive, thus I am in complete agreement". I understand wanting to be a supporter, but I don't think women are as emotionally invested in the subject, as you stated.
    That's probably one of the most condescendingly sexist statements I've seen in a while. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but congratulations - nobody's made my jaw drop like that in quite some time. LOL.

    If I'm not as "emotionally invested", then rest assured that it isn't because I'm of the fairer sex and it's got nothing to do with wanting to support my man-folk in their crusade. (You do know what year this is, yes?) It's because I wasn't raised in the US, but in a country where there were no constitutional rights to gun ownership and where we had strict gun control. Even though I was raised around farmers and hunters and was taught to shoot at a young age, our mentality was that you only had what you needed to get the job done.

    So that's my issue ... I'm not against guns, not even against the right to own them ... Because of the way I was raised and the country I was raised in, I just don't see the need for a great big arsenal or weaponry beyond what you need to get the job done. And despite the expansion of what I now consider 'a job', I haven't quite shaken that mentality.

    P.S. My husband doesn't own a gun and he was actually pretty shocked when I told him I wanted to buy one since he'd spent 12 years trying to convince me that a gun for self defense wasn't such a bad idea.
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  3. #4078  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairclough View Post
    For those who do not know VLAD is a series law in place to prevent organisations who identify themselves as bikies. Those who don't know Bikies e.g. The Coffin Cheaters, Hells Angels Etc our equivalent of Crims and Bloods. The law inturn means that if you are deemed to be member or associate of a gang and commit a crime a further 15 years is added to your sentence and if you are a leader in the gang another 10 in attempt to demolish gang culture. There are other small amendments like the assaulting of a police office is 1 year sentence, non associates of gangs have a 3 strike policy of a compulsory 1 year from any service e.g. fire, ambulance or police. Oh Yes the punishments are extremly brutal, this isn't designed to target 'motorbike' riders just those who identify themselves with a criminal gang.

    The reasn VLAD got pushed so quickly, Queensland is one of the only states not to have a senate. The only line of defence is the Queens Council.
    The problem with the laws though is that the Queensland government have given themselves the power to identify ANY group as a criminal organization, which could extend well beyond bikie/biker gangs and include sports groups etc. It's then up to the organization to go back and prove to the government that they shouldn't be included.

    If you believe that it's only people in a criminal motorcycle gang that are at risk of being pulled over and inconvenienced by these laws, then I got some beach front property here in Vegas to sell ya.

    It gives the police the right to pull over anyone who's wearing biker gear, looks like a biker, or any group with three or more riders. If they pull anyone over under this law, they don't just do a nice little check for a valid license, registration and insurance. It's a full on thing with criminal background checks, photographs, bike safety inspection etc etc. There have even been reports of people being asked to lift up their shirts to show whether or not they have gang tattoos. These checks are done if they just suspect you're involved with a gang ... you're guilty of it until you prove yourself innocent (just ask the guy in the SamCro T-Shirt that got put through the wringer. LOL).

    Most riders I know wear leathers when riding. My husband wears a patch as part of the Patriot Guard, and speaking of ... police followed the Australian Patriot's as they escorted the hearse of a 60 something female rider who'd passed away from cancer. They took photographs of these vets and family members as they rode and of their bikes at the cemetery. There are plenty of cases where innocent riders have been caught up and the only thing the police have suggested is that if you're riding with a group ... call in advance and register your number and your route with them.

    As to passed quickly - it went through in one night with one amendment ... so that lawyers wouldn't be arrested if they were meeting with 2 or more clients from one of those criminal organization. You also forgot my favorite part ... the biker only prisons with the pink jumpsuits and the 23 hours of solitary a day. Gitmo, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairclough View Post
    Yes I know we have no bill of rights, we presume we have freedom of speech due to lack of a written document saying we don't. Yes you would be correct gun laws were down to the individual states - but these states almost had minimal restrictions on guns. Some states almost let anyone obtain a gun. If there was so much 'restrictions' prior to our federal taking control, why were the states so scared of losing this power? because there was limited control, yes some control pushing into the 80s and 90s after massicres but not overly great. This is why the government basically had to force every state into giving the powers to the federal government and the federal government blocking imports. Yes our constitution never had any mention of guns, why the state level was forced. The Howard Government threatened that if they were not to sign the agreement, he would take the issue to a referendum where it was almost guaranteed that the consitution would be modified to allow the federal body to have control over firearms.

    Hehe Johny Howard, I love that man.
    Actually, when you look at the specifics, there were some pretty interesting rules depending on parts of history. And those that were opposed to gun control becoming a federal mandate were pretty low. Something like 85% of the country were completely for it and those that were against that tried to join political parties to fight it were refused entry. It was not, nor has it ever been, a massive gun culture.

    EDITED TO ADD: I think the VLAD thing actually highlights a point I brought up earlier. Such an all-encompassing law giving the government and law enforcement such broad powers and which would detrimentally affect innocent citizens would never ever fly in the US. But Australia, and even New Zealand, are so used to that level of government intervention that they just say "oh okay ... well, so long as it's about bikie gangs, it's cool".
    Last edited by KiwiGrrl; 12-18-2013 at 06:27 PM.
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  4. #4079  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    After a massacre a year and the idea of the law after 35 were shot in one sitting there would be a lot of support.

    They courts blocked them as they thought if they joined the liberal party they can destroy the policies within. Its like Republicans joining the democrats to ruin their policy within.

    No doubt with the Queensland laws bring rough, buy some area's over there has some real issues and it would take some strong action to remove them.

    - Android Central App. N'oublions jamais l'Australie, Villers-Bretonneux. Prepare for January 26.
    Tom Fairclough
    Credo faber est quisque fortunae suae
    I believe every man is the artisan of his own fortune
  5. #4080  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by KiwiGrrl View Post
    That's probably one of the most condescendingly sexist statements I've seen in a while. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but congratulations - nobody's made my jaw drop like that in quite some time. LOL.

    If I'm not as "emotionally invested", then rest assured that it isn't because I'm of the fairer sex and it's got nothing to do with wanting to support my man-folk in their crusade. (You do know what year this is, yes?) It's because I wasn't raised in the US, but in a country where there were no constitutional rights to gun ownership and where we had strict gun control. Even though I was raised around farmers and hunters and was taught to shoot at a young age, our mentality was that you only had what you needed to get the job done.

    So that's my issue ... I'm not against guns, not even against the right to own them ... Because of the way I was raised and the country I was raised in, I just don't see the need for a great big arsenal or weaponry beyond what you need to get the job done. And despite the expansion of what I now consider 'a job', I haven't quite shaken that mentality.

    P.S. My husband doesn't own a gun and he was actually pretty shocked when I told him I wanted to buy one since he'd spent 12 years trying to convince me that a gun for self defense wasn't such a bad idea.
    What statement? About the Saudi government not allowing women to drive? You don't believe that if a Saudi woman is questioned about it that she's not going to say what she thinks is socially accepted? What about the women that wear a burka? Do you think that all the women wearing one are ok with it? I'm willing to bet that there are many that aren't, but in order to keep with tradition, they are complacent.

    And did you not state that you're not that big a gun rights supporter? I'm not sure which statement you claim is condescendingly sexist, especially since I mentioned that I believe those that are the biggest proponents of gun rights are doing it as a thinly veiled attempt at securing what they believe is a symbol of manhood. Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just calling it how I see it. If I were to say that I don't believe women should own a gun because it can't be used to cook or clean anything, then I can understand you thinking my comment sexist......
  6. #4081  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by KiwiGrrl View Post
    The problem with the laws though is that the Queensland government have given themselves the power to identify ANY group as a criminal organization, which could extend well beyond bikie/biker gangs and include sports groups etc. It's then up to the organization to go back and prove to the government that they shouldn't be included.

    If you believe that it's only people in a criminal motorcycle gang that are at risk of being pulled over and inconvenienced by these laws, then I got some beach front property here in Vegas to sell ya.

    It gives the police the right to pull over anyone who's wearing biker gear, looks like a biker, or any group with three or more riders. If they pull anyone over under this law, they don't just do a nice little check for a valid license, registration and insurance. It's a full on thing with criminal background checks, photographs, bike safety inspection etc etc. There have even been reports of people being asked to lift up their shirts to show whether or not they have gang tattoos. These checks are done if they just suspect you're involved with a gang ... you're guilty of it until you prove yourself innocent (just ask the guy in the SamCro T-Shirt that got put through the wringer. LOL).

    Most riders I know wear leathers when riding. My husband wears a patch as part of the Patriot Guard, and speaking of ... police followed the Australian Patriot's as they escorted the hearse of a 60 something female rider who'd passed away from cancer. They took photographs of these vets and family members as they rode and of their bikes at the cemetery. There are plenty of cases where innocent riders have been caught up and the only thing the police have suggested is that if you're riding with a group ... call in advance and register your number and your route with them.

    As to passed quickly - it went through in one night with one amendment ... so that lawyers wouldn't be arrested if they were meeting with 2 or more clients from one of those criminal organization. You also forgot my favorite part ... the biker only prisons with the pink jumpsuits and the 23 hours of solitary a day. Gitmo, anyone?
    I wonder how this affects groups like B.A.C.A. (Bikers Against Child Abuse) they escort and protect victims of pedophiles during their court appearance. They have multiple chapters in Austrailia. I have recently began talking to several members of a chapter fairly close to my home. I may be joining them soon.
    I miss my friend Matt McQuinn he touched so many lives, and in the end gave his life to protect someone that he loved. I am proud to have known him, and of the choices he made when it mattered. You were a true hero.

    "You would not fear my weapon unless your intentions were to provoke my using it"
  7. #4082  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by Serial Fordicator View Post
    There again, Look at the afghans against mighty Russia with just ak47s
    The AK-47 rifle was ineffective against Soviet helicopters (gunships). The rounds were not powerful enough to penetrate the armor. However, the tide turned when the US supplied Stinger anti-aircraft missiles to the Afghan resistance. The Afghans were then able to shoot down the gunships with ease. Without the Stinger missile, the Soviets could have continued their occupation of Afghanistan.

    If the US military were to turn on its own people, you would probably need something more powerful than a rifle to fight back. The US military in 2013 is a lot more advanced than the Soviets in the 1980's.
  8. #4083  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott7217 View Post
    The AK-47 rifle was ineffective against Soviet helicopters (gunships). The rounds were not powerful enough to penetrate the armor. However, the tide turned when the US supplied Stinger anti-aircraft missiles to the Afghan resistance. The Afghans were then able to shoot down the gunships with ease. Without the Stinger missile, the Soviets could have continued their occupation of Afghanistan.

    If the US military were to turn on its own people, you would probably need something more powerful than a rifle to fight back. The US military in 2013 is a lot more advanced than the Soviets in the 1980's.
    And you don't think the citizens would end up with more than small arms? Guarantee they would. Then there's Vietnam. Not much success for the U.S.

    Sent from my XT1060 using AC Forums mobile app
  9. #4084  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    I don't see America with many jungles to hide in or with underground passages.

    - Android Central App. N'oublions jamais l'Australie, Villers-Bretonneux. Prepare for January 26.
    Tom Fairclough
    Credo faber est quisque fortunae suae
    I believe every man is the artisan of his own fortune
  10. #4085  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairclough View Post
    I don't see America with many jungles to hide in or with underground passages.

    - Android Central App. N'oublions jamais l'Australie, Villers-Bretonneux. Prepare for January 26.
    No...buildings , basements and militia camps....lol

    Sent from my XT1060 using AC Forums mobile app
  11. #4086  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by cdmjlt369 View Post
    And you don't think the citizens would end up with more than small arms? Guarantee they would. Then there's Vietnam. Not much success for the U.S.
    I would be interested to hear where American citizens could get weapons that could handle the US military.

    As for Vietnam, China and the Soviet Union supplied a lot of weapons to the Viet Cong and the North Vietnamese Army. The US could not disrupt these supply lines due to strict rules of engagement. That was a big factor during the Vietnam War. It would be like fighting a boxing match with one hand tied behind your back.
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  12. #4087  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by cdmjlt369 View Post
    No...buildings , basements and militia camps....lol
    Those are excellent targets for bunker buster bombs and GPS guided munitions.
  13. #4088  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott7217 View Post
    Those are excellent targets for bunker buster bombs and GPS guided munitions.
    Bases and munitions depots are excellent targets for raids. (Theoretically). And don't think that some people haven't acquired other skills and useful knowledge.

    Sent from my XT1060 using AC Forums mobile app
  14. #4089  
    alexlam24's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Who needs guns when just one nuclear bomb from the Soviet Union can destroy a whole country?

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  15. #4090  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by cdmjlt369 View Post
    Bases and munitions depots are excellent targets for raids. (Theoretically). And don't think that some people haven't acquired other skills and useful knowledge.
    Bases and munition depots are excellent targets, but they would be defended. We shouldn't expect anyone to give them up without a fight.

    Acquired skills and useful knowledge can give a tactical advantage in theory. I like what you're thinking. Which ones do you have in mind?
  16. #4091  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by alexlam24 View Post
    Who needs guns when just one nuclear bomb from the Soviet Union can destroy a whole country?

    Sent from HTC Note Ultra Pro on T-Mobile
    Or any nuclear bomb from any country

    Posted via Android Central App
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  17. #4092  
    alexlam24's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chetan Takyar View Post
    Or any nuclear bomb from any country

    Posted via Android Central App
    Russia still has 240 nuclear bombs missing from the 90s

    Sent from HTC Note Ultra Pro on T-Mobile
  18. #4093  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott7217 View Post
    Bases and munition depots are excellent targets, but they would be defended. We shouldn't expect anyone to give them up without a fight.

    Acquired skills and useful knowledge can give a tactical advantage in theory. I like what you're thinking. Which ones do you have in mind?
    This country is full of computer hacks, ex-military experienced personnel and chemists just to name a few of potential problems.

    Sent from my XT1060 using AC Forums mobile app
  19. #4094  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairclough View Post
    Its possible to put the genie in the bottle. We were in the exact same spot. The difference is we changed our view of what gun use is acceptable for, what we can obtain it for and limited access to weapons which fire rapidly and those which did for cattle farmers limited the rounds.


    To a previous question. Jan 26 is Australia day, mainly a day were most livers get destroyed.
    A little light humour on the issue above for the closure of the thread. This video is slightly funny and worth a watch,
    ( )
    - Android Central App. N'oublions jamais l'Australie, Villers-Bretonneux. Prepare for January 26.
    Your country has a completely different history and is only 10℅ the size of the US. What works there would never work in America.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD
  20. #4095  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by alexlam24 View Post
    Russia still has 240 nuclear bombs missing from the 90s
    What's even worse is that there are probably a lot of ex-Soviet engineers and scientists involved in their weapons program who are out of work ever since the end of the Cold War. I could easily see some rich oil-producing country hiring them to jump start another weapons program.
  21. #4096  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    10% of the populatuon, almost the same geographical size to patrol the boarders and were doing fine.
    Then again, Japan about half the size of your population is doing significantly better even with universal health care.
    Seems any system which works outside of America, is viewed as "wont work here"
    Tom Fairclough
    Credo faber est quisque fortunae suae
    I believe every man is the artisan of his own fortune
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  22. #4097  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairclough View Post
    10% of the populatuon, almost the same geographical size to patrol the boarders and were doing fine.
    Then again, Japan about half the size of your population is doing significantly better even with universal health care.
    Seems any system which works outside of America, is viewed as "wont work here"
    That is pretty typical for us in the states. We have some very wealthy entities that spend a lot of money on a lot of misconceptions propaganda. "Socialized medicine like in Europe and our neighbors in Canada? Won't work here, we're not socialists here!", "Gun control that actually makes sense? Won't work here, we're a freedom loving country". It's actually kind of sad really. One of our bigger strengths can be our national pride, but it's also one of our biggest problems and is one of the reason we can be somewhat isolationists and hated by a lot of the world (which is actually perfectly fine by a lot of my countrymen).
    Last edited by TXGTOU; 12-19-2013 at 06:34 AM.
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  23. #4098  
    NoYankees44's Avatar

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    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairclough View Post
    10% of the populatuon, almost the same geographical size to patrol the boarders and were doing fine.
    Then again, Japan about half the size of your population is doing significantly better even with universal health care.
    Seems any system which works outside of America, is viewed as "wont work here"
    So water locked borders equal borders that essentially a fence... Right...
    Galaxy S3(unlocked on whatever I feel like flashing) ---- Asus Tf300(unlocked on CROMI)
    Htc Rezound(s-off on ViperRez) -- Addicted to crack and retired
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  24. #4099  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    There's a reason why so many people come to the U.S. and people can hang on to the notions that misconceptions are being thrown around about gun control, government healthcare. There's plenty of evidence to go around that these aren't misconceptions.

    Sent from my XT1060 using AC Forums mobile app
  25. #4100  

    Default Re: Why is it that most anti gun people...

    Quote Originally Posted by cdmjlt369 View Post
    There's a reason why so many people come to the U.S. and people can hang on to the notions that misconceptions are being thrown around about gun control, government healthcare. There's plenty of evidence to go around that these aren't misconceptions.

    Sent from my XT1060 using AC Forums mobile app
    I'm all ears err eyes. A couple of misconceptions that you could possibly clear up for me; if we are required to be licensed, maintain insurance, and annually register our vehicles, why can't we require the same for guns? How is a more strict background check an infringement of someone's rights? How does limiting how many rounds a magazine can hold an infringement as well?

    As far as government provided healthcare goes, we have government provide us with policing and fire protection. If we were to turn our police departments and fire departments over to the private sector, what would happen if we were late on a payment to one of those departments? Would they not be required to intervene if we were victims of a crime? If our house was on fire and we hadn't paid our dues for that month, would the fire department be obligated to put out a fire?

    We entrust these entities to the public sector for the commonwealth of the community. If we entrust these types of entities to the private sector where profit is the main motive, what corners can we expect to be cut in an attempt to save money? The same should hold true for healthcare as far as I'm concerned. I don't want my health to be part of some equation on some insurance company's ledger. We're already seeing how "altruistic" the private sector can be when it comes to healthcare. Take all the crying over birth control. People claim that their morality dictates that it shouldn't be provided for by an employers healthcare provider because it violates their "moral code". Yet you don't hear the same argument being made for denying Viagra. To me Viagra, Cialis, and the other ED drugs are more indicative of a person's intentions to have recreational sex than birth control, especially when the birth control is being prescribed to someone that has heavy menstrual cycles and the birth control is a way of minimizing the symptoms. A man that's seeking Viagra is generally an elderly man who has no intentions of procreating, they just want a "good time". But since we live in a distorted society, no one questions why people believe birth control dispensing is a moral issue, but ED drug dispensing, that's a god send. And before any man claims "Well a marriage needs physical intimacy and sometimes that's not possible", you can't insist that one form of recreational sex is acceptable and another form isn't.

    Feel free to take your time. I threw a lot out there and the coffee is wearing off so I won't be proofreading....
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