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  1. #1351  
    backbeat's Avatar
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    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin O'Quinn View Post
    You're deflecting and failed to respond to the rest of my post. Even this response is a deflective answer.
    No. What I stated was sarcastic commentary regarding the prevention of loss of life in the US. As for the nature of our republic, what I stated is, indeed, factual.
  2. #1352  

    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by crackberrytraitor View Post
    Banning assault weapons wouldn't stop spree killings one iota. Recent government studies showed clearly that that the overruling majority of killing sprees were conducted using shotguns and handguns.

    Hell, the college watchtower killings were executed with a bolt action rifle. He just methodically pucked people out of the crowd.

    A semi auto handgun can fire just as fast as a semi auto assault rifle. Ban high capacity magazines you say? Cool, the nutter will just strap 15 magazines across his chest and spend an extra 1.5 seconds popping in a new one for every half dozen people he knocks off.

    Guns are not the problem here. If they were, we wouldn't have only started seeing these kinds of killings regularly in the last 40 years or so.

    This whole tissy isn't about reducing gun violence, it's about finding a scapegoat so people can feel better.

    Sent from my One X using Android Central Forums
    Your referring to a shooting in which 14 people were killed by an ex Marine as justification that bolt action rifles are as deadly as assault rifles in a shooting where 26 people were killed by a kid? Hm, I wonder which weapon is easier to operate.

    Lol. Please, get real. When you come back to the land of reality, then maybe you'll have a shade of credibility. Until then, your comment is just ridiculous.

    Sent from my SPH-D600 using Android Central Forums
  3. #1353  

    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by carolinadroid View Post
    Although I've made no such contradiction, we indeed can disagree and debate the issue.
    Oh? In that one statement you said:

    Are semi-auto handguns the leading firearm of choice among mass killings in the US? No.
    Implying you aren't concerned with them and only the weapons that have been popularly used being banned. But elsewhere in that post and others...

    Quote Originally Posted by carolinadroid View Post
    And this is why revolvers are not being included in any proposed manufacturing ban. Mass deaths, in a societal structure, out-weigh the priority of simple handgun-related deaths. Instruments of death which can effect dozens of deaths in as many seconds are reasonably the priority.
    Quote Originally Posted by carolinadroid View Post
    It's a real shame that no one on your side of this issue has put up figures on the most popular firearms' capabilities where rounds per minute are concerned. Definitions don't carry water where capacity to kill in volume is included in the equation.
    Quote Originally Posted by carolinadroid View Post
    Mass killings is the issue. Not the instrument of death to deliver it.
    And then back to it being an issue of the guns being used over capabilities...

    Quote Originally Posted by carolinadroid View Post
    What you are conveniently overlooking is that the point is ... any manufactured instrument which is being used to carry out mass killings at the ever-increasing rate in which they are occurring is subject to being duly regulated. No need to compare death-by-refrigerator statistics (for those so inclined).
    It's already been pointed out that semi-auto handguns can be just as effective, and a bolt action was also effective in a mass shooting, hence the capabilities you speak of. So again, are you against the politically named "assault weapons" because of their prevalence, or guns simply capable of a mass shooting (which arguably could be any gun depending on the user)?
  4. #1354  

    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Here's a company called magpul, most users here may not have heard about them until recently if at all.

    In Colorado HB 1224 will soon be up for consideration. Part of this bill would have made the production of 30 round capacity magazines illegal in that state. Since the initial bill was introduced it has been amended which would allow for production in Colorado. After all what state wants to loose an 85 million a year business.

    But Magpul is standing firm in their convictions, and if this bill becomes law they will relocate. This will mean a halt in production, and will cause loss of profits, and a reduced inventory while the facilities are relocated. As well as new employees hired, and trained.

    Magpul's Future: Legislative battle, new products, production, relocation (AUDIO)
  5. #1355  

    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by droidmyme View Post
    Your referring to a shooting in which 14 people were killed by an ex Marine as justification that bolt action rifles are as deadly as assault rifles in a shooting where 26 people were killed by a kid? Hm, I wonder which weapon is easier to operate.

    Lol. Please, get real. When you come back to the land of reality, then maybe you'll have a shade of credibility. Until then, your comment is just ridiculous.

    Sent from my SPH-D600 using Android Central Forums
    I'm not a marine, I'm a nerd and I could do the same damn thing with a rifle, as could anyone who spent a few days with a rifle and scope.

    You also forgot to address the fact that the vast majority of spree killings are conducted with handguns and shotguns.

    Do you really think an assault rifle is easier to operate than a handgun, or has a higher rate of fire? The only difference is a larger magazine, which is a 1.5 second inconvenience every half dozen killings or so.

    I think it's you who needs to come back to the land of reality, bro.

    This whole idea that because assault rifles are bigger and look more like military weapons, they must be more dangerous is a load of sensationalist garbage and simply not true

    Sent from my One X using Android Central Forums
    Markster1 likes this.
  6. #1356  

    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by crackberrytraitor View Post
    I'm not a marine, I'm a nerd and I could do the same damn thing with a rifle, as could anyone who spent a few days with a rifle and scope.

    You also forgot to address the fact that the vast majority of spree killings are conducted with handguns and shotguns.

    Do you really think an assault rifle is easier to operate than a handgun, or has a higher rate of fire? The only difference is a larger magazine, which is a 1.5 second inconvenience every half dozen killings or so.

    I think it's you who needs to come back to the land of reality, bro.

    This whole idea that because assault rifles are bigger and look more like military weapons, they must be more dangerous is a load of sensationalist garbage and simply not true

    Sent from my One X using Android Central Forums
    Wow. That's an interesting statement. *sarcasm*

    You say you could be like Charles Whitman, a trained Marine, and kill 14 people with a bolt action rifle?

    Hm, okay. So, if I get this straight, YOU want to lecture us on how to conduct a killing spree, or how to operate a bolt action rifle, because you are an expert on.... Wait, what is your expertise exactly?

    Oh, and if you're going to cite statistics, you should at least provide a link to your sources.

    Sent from my SPH-D600 using Android Central Forums
  7. #1357  

    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Assault rifles ARE military weapons only and not available to the general public.
  8. #1358  

    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    Assault rifles ARE military weapons only and not available to the general public.
    Nope.

    Sent from my SPH-D600 using Android Central Forums
  9. #1359  
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    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by droidmyme View Post
    Wow. That's an interesting statement. *sarcasm*

    You say you could be like Charles Whitman, a trained Marine, and kill 14 people with a bolt action rifle?

    Hm, okay. So, if I get this straight, YOU want to lecture us on how to conduct a killing spree, or how to operate a bolt action rifle, because you are an expert on.... Wait, what is your expertise exactly?

    Oh, and if you're going to cite statistics, you should at least provide a link to your sources.

    Sent from my SPH-D600 using Android Central Forums
    I could. I have little training with bolt action rifles, but honestly, practice open and closing the breach for a day or two and you could also fire them rather quickly.

    I think you missed the point of some previous statements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    Assault rifles ARE military weapons only and not available to the general public.
    Quote Originally Posted by droidmyme View Post
    Nope.

    Sent from my SPH-D600 using Android Central Forums
    From dictionary.com:

    assault rifle


    noun1.a military rifle capable of both automatic and semiautomatic fire, utilizing an intermediate-powercartridge.

    2.a nonmilitary weapon modeled on the military assault rifle, usually modified to allow onlysemiautomatic fire.



    Origin:
    197075


    Not saying that's the only two definitions, but in a dictionary whatever is first is usually the most common use of the word, with alternate definitions following. But even the second definition specifies that the nonmilitary weapon is modeled ​(emphases mine) on the military version.
  10. #1360  

    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin O'Quinn View Post
    I could. I have little training with bolt action rifles, but honestly, practice open and closing the breach for a day or two and you could also fire them rather quickly.

    I think you missed the point of some previous statements.





    From dictionary.com:

    assault rifle


    noun1.a military rifle capable of both automatic and semiautomatic fire, utilizing an intermediate-powercartridge.

    2.a nonmilitary weapon modeled on the military assault rifle, usually modified to allow onlysemiautomatic fire.



    Origin:
    197075


    Not saying that's the only two definitions, but in a dictionary whatever is first is usually the most common use of the word, with alternate definitions following. But even the second definition specifies that the nonmilitary weapon is modeled ​(emphases mine) on the military version.
    The 2nd definition is a "non-military" rifle?

    If I missed a point somewhere, kindly point it out for me. Thanks.

    Sent from my LS670 using Android Central Forums
  11. #1361  

    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by droidmyme View Post
    Wow. That's an interesting statement. *sarcasm*

    You say you could be like Charles Whitman, a trained Marine, and kill 14 people with a bolt action rifle?

    Hm, okay. So, if I get this straight, YOU want to lecture us on how to conduct a killing spree, or how to operate a bolt action rifle, because you are an expert on.... Wait, what is your expertise exactly?

    Oh, and if you're going to cite statistics, you should at least provide a link to your sources.

    Sent from my SPH-D600 using Android Central Forums
    Annnnnd for a 3rd time, you fail to address whether or not assault rifles have a higher rate of fire and are therefore more effective for spree killings. I'm assuming this is because you can't and will continue to try desperately to deflect.

    Oh and here's the stats you wanted:

    http://m.motherjones.com/politics/20...-shootings-map

    http://www.crin.org/violence/search/...p?infoID=30021

    But here, let me lay it out for you, so you can see how utterly wrong you are.

    Firearms and self-defense-uploadfromtaptalk1361923336620.jpg

    Hmm, that's funny. The facts show that out of the 142 weapons used in mass shootings, only 35 were assault rifles. That would suggest that semi-auto handguns, revolvers and shotguns are more dangerous than assault rifles. Guess we should ban them next, huh? Screw that silly second amendment thing.

    Oh, and yes if I was a psycho, I could easily hit 14 people in a crowded exposed field with a rifle if I was sitting in an F'ing tower. As I said, anyone with a scope and a couple days practice could easily do so as well.

    You keep failing on so many many levels. How many times do you have to be wrong before you stop talking? If assault weapons make up only a small portion of spree killings and don't have a higher rate of fire, please explain why you think that banning them is the solution to gun violence.

    Sent from my One X using Android Central Forums
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  12. #1362  
    Nate456's Avatar

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    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by droidmyme View Post
    The 2nd definition is a "non-military" rifle?

    If I missed a point somewhere, kindly point it out for me. Thanks.

    Sent from my LS670 using Android Central Forums
    It said non-military weapon not non-military rifle there's a difference.

    Sent from Curiosity on Mars.
  13. #1363  
    backbeat's Avatar
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    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by crackberrytraitor View Post
    Oh and here's the stats you wanted:

    A Guide to Mass Shootings in America | Mother Jones
    This accounts only for the number of incidents, not the number of killed/wounded per incident. Got that laying around anywhere?
    droidmyme likes this.
  14. #1364  

    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by droidmyme View Post
    The 2nd definition is a "non-military" rifle?

    If I missed a point somewhere, kindly point it out for me. Thanks.

    Sent from my LS670 using Android Central Forums
    My point about assault rifles being only military was directed at Crackberrytraitor, but the point is there is a difference between them and assault weapons. The second definition mentioned above is the first time I've seen said description used as such and other reputable sites only include the first.

    As I pointed out a couple of times already here and in another thread, the key difference between assault rifles and assault weapons are the rifles have selectable (burst and/or full auto) fire, and weapons do not. Assault rifles are already banned for ownership under current laws, with the very few and strict exceptions. Assault weapons, by legislative definition, are defined by their looks and magazine size. It doesn't have anything to do with how devastating they can be. Otherwise those past and proposed bans would have included more types of guns.

    So in a gun debate like this, people on both sides need to know the difference and use accordingly. Same goes for more well known terms like machine guns and AK-47's. Those were used earlier in another post as if they were publicly available like any other civilian gun, but they are not. People that keep using these kinds of terms to advocate gun restrictions either don't pay attention, just running on fear of something looking scary, or purposely trying to mislead others to their side of the debate by using incorrect terminology.

    Hope that clears it up for you.
  15. #1365  
    backbeat's Avatar
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    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    It's already been pointed out that semi-auto handguns can be just as effective, and a bolt action was also effective in a mass shooting, hence the capabilities you speak of. So again, are you against the politically named "assault weapons" because of their prevalence, or guns simply capable of a mass shooting (which arguably could be any gun depending on the user)?
    As I said, no contradiction.

    Why must your choices be the only ones? A choice of extremes? Do better, please.

    The issue is the means by which mass deaths have occurred, not the means by which they may occur. If any other manufactured product had the capacity to kill in mass - and that capacity was being realized at an escalating pace - it would be irresponsible for government not to step in and make changes which protect the public at a higher degree. It matters not if the mass, intended deaths occur at the end of a firearm or a teaspoon.
  16. #1366  

    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by crackberrytraitor View Post
    Annnnnd for a 3rd time, you fail to address whether or not assault rifles have a higher rate of fire and are therefore more effective for spree killings. I'm assuming this is because you can't and will continue to try desperately to deflect.

    Oh and here's the stats you wanted:

    http://m.motherjones.com/politics/20...-shootings-map

    http://www.crin.org/violence/search/...p?infoID=30021

    But here, let me lay it out for you, so you can see how utterly wrong you are.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	uploadfromtaptalk1361923336620.jpg 
Views:	31 
Size:	23.2 KB 
ID:	61524

    Hmm, that's funny. The facts show that out of the 142 weapons used in mass shootings, only 32 were assault rifles. That would suggest that semi-auto handguns, revolvers and shotguns are more dangerous than assault rifles. Guess we should ban them next, huh? Screw that silly second amendment thing.

    Oh, and yes if I was a psycho, I could easily hit 14 people in a crowded exposed field with a rifle if I was sitting in an F'ing tower. As I said, anyone with a scope and a couple days practice could easily do so as well.

    You keep failing on so many many levels. How many times do you have to be wrong before you stop talking? If assault weapons make up only a small portion of spree killings and don't have a higher rate of fire, please explain why you think that banning them is the solution to gun violence.

    Sent from my One X using Android Central Forums
    Ah! Finally, thank you. If you had actually bothered to link your sources the FIRST time, maybe I wouldn't have ended up having to repeat myself so much. Could've saved us both time.

    I'm happy to take a look at the facts. Let's look at those facts, then, shall we?

    According to this particular study, Mother Earth News examines data from 62 mass shootings in the USA, from 1982-2011. (Six of these shootings were, using the FBI's terminology, defined as sprees, ie shootings which took place in multiple locations.)

    Notice how Mother Earth studies 62 shootings, but lists 142 total weapons used? That's because if a mass shooter was armed with multiple weapons, Mother Earth News counted ALL those weapons as "used in a mass shooting" - indiscriminately of how many people the particular weapons actually killed.

    That's a key point of this study you have failed to mention. The absolute number of weapons does not discriminate between the amount of people each weapon killed.

    What does this tell us? Well, in the case of Sandy Hook, although though Adam Lanza fired over 150 rounds from his Bushmaster, killing 26 people with it, his 2 semiautomatic pistols were counted on the same scale as the assault rifle - pistols he fired once to kill himself. See the holes in the chart you've provided?

    You're taking a chart looking at absolute numbers and used it to back up an argument against banning assault rifles, when a weighted chart would have be far more appropriate. That's a pretty weak argument to stand on.

    Sent from my LS670 using Android Central Forums
  17. #1367  

    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    My point about assault rifles being only military was directed at Crackberrytraitor, but the point is there is a difference between them and assault weapons. The second definition mentioned above is the first time I've seen said description used as such and other reputable sites only include the first.

    As I pointed out a couple of times already here and in another thread, the key difference between assault rifles and assault weapons are the rifles have selectable (burst and/or full auto) fire, and weapons do not. Assault rifles are already banned for ownership under current laws, with the very few and strict exceptions. Assault weapons, by legislative definition, are defined by their looks and magazine size. It doesn't have anything to do with how devastating they can be. Otherwise those past and proposed bans would have included more types of guns.

    So in a gun debate like this, people on both sides need to know the difference and use accordingly. Same goes for more well known terms like machine guns and AK-47's. Those were used earlier in another post as if they were publicly available like any other civilian gun, but they are not. People that keep using these kinds of terms to advocate gun restrictions either don't pay attention, just running on fear of something looking scary, or purposely trying to mislead others to their side of the debate by using incorrect terminology.

    Hope that clears it up for you.
    Actually Mooncatt, that's not what you stated in your previous post. I can bring that statement back up, if you'd like.

    Sent from my LS670 using Android Central Forums
  18. #1368  

    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by carolinadroid View Post
    The issue is the means by which mass deaths have occurred, not the means by which they may occur. If any other manufactured product had the capacity to kill in mass - and that capacity was being realized at an escalating pace - it would be irresponsible for government not to step in and make changes which protect the public at a higher degree. It matters not if the mass, intended deaths occur at the end of a firearm or a teaspoon.
    Ok, so you are for banning weapons that are prevalently used. Then I say that's pretty reactionary and not a good plan. When the next weapon becomes popular, we ban it. Then the next, and the next, until all you have is a teaspoon to defend yourself because the effective guns are now illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by droidmyme View Post
    Actually Mooncatt, that's not what you stated in your previous post. I can bring that statement back up, if you'd like.
    Which statement?
  19. #1369  

    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    Ok, so you are for banning weapons that are prevalently used. Then I say that's pretty reactionary and not a good plan. When the next weapon becomes popular, we ban it. Then the next, and the next, until all you have is a teaspoon to defend yourself because the effective guns are now illegal.


    Which statement?
    Never mind. I'm still trying to figure out exactly what you mean by assault rifles.

    Sent from my LS670 using Android Central Forums
  20. #1370  
    backbeat's Avatar
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    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    Ok, so you are for banning weapons that are prevalently used. Then I say that's pretty reactionary and not a good plan. When the next weapon becomes popular, we ban it. Then the next, and the next, until all you have is a teaspoon to defend yourself because the effective guns are now illegal.
    Yours is a Chicken Little/Sky Is Falling defense without foundation.
  21. #1371  

    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by droidmyme View Post
    If only the opposing side was seeking to "forbid the carrying of arms," then your quote would have some resonance.

    In reality, though, Thomas Jefferson would have little reason for concern. The laws passed in New York don't forbid anyone *except the mentally ill and felons* from carrying arms. Rather, they do 3 things:

    1. Toughen the ban on assault rifles.

    2. Limit the capacity of magazines to 7 rounds.

    3. Add provisions which make it harder for firearms to fall into the hands of the mentally ill.

    None of these 3 measures equal forbidding people from carrying arms. I think that your sources have misled you there, so let me offer you a better one:

    http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/01/16...n-new-york.xml

    Sent from my SPH-D600 using Android Central Forums
    Do you think the criminals are going to limit their magazines to 7 bullets?
  22. #1372  

    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by carolinadroid View Post
    As one who has previously sworn to never register your weapons under ANY circumstance - and going so far as chest-thumping about it being your [unfounded] right to remain anonymous - are you now admitting that you are/will be a criminal?
    Are you asserting that any law passed is always constitutionally sound?
  23. #1373  

    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by nolittdroid View Post
    And everyone forgets the largest, richest SuperPac in the US is the NRA. Shocker.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using Android Central Forums
    Bloomberg
  24. #1374  
    backbeat's Avatar
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    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by Markster1 View Post
    Are you asserting that any law passed is always constitutionally sound?
    Yippee Ki-yay ...
  25. #1375  

    Default Re: 44 Gun Companies Stop Sales To Law Enforcement In Anti-2nd Amendment States

    Quote Originally Posted by Markster1 View Post
    Do you think the criminals are going to limit their magazines to 7 bullets?
    If a federal law limited the size of magazines to 7 rounds, I guess they would have to.

    Except for those criminals who are also gun smiths. Those guys are super dangerous.

    Sent from my LS670 using Android Central Forums
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