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    Default Universal Health care

    Not Obama care, but general universal health care.
    What is your position?
    Why?
    Have you had an experiences?
    What would change your mind?
    Tom Fairclough
    Credo faber est quisque fortunae suae
    I believe every man is the artisan of his own fortune
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  2. #2  
    qxr
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    Default Re: Universal Health care

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairclough View Post
    Not Obama care, but general universal health care.
    What is your position?
    Why?
    Have you had an experiences?
    What would change your mind?
    A single payer system where the gov't is in charge?

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  3. #3  

    Default Re: Universal Health care

    The government giveth, the government can taketh away. I feel we should be responsible for paying for our own healthcare in a market freer than we currently have.
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  4. Thread Author  Thread Author    #4  

    Default Re: Universal Health care

    A system where you have both gov and private practises,
    Tom Fairclough
    Credo faber est quisque fortunae suae
    I believe every man is the artisan of his own fortune
  5. #5  

    Default Re: Universal Health care

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    I feel we should be responsible for paying for our own healthcare in a market freer than we currently have.
    Responsibility in health care is an interesting topic. Should non-smokers pay for the treatment of smokers who refuse to quit? Should athletic people pay for people who just sit in front of the TV all day? Should car drivers pay for motorcycle riders who refuse to wear helmets and get into a collision?

    Currently, I think we do pay in all of those cases, but we pay indirectly through higher insurance premiums. Still, I don't think people like it. Given the choice, people don't want to pay for other people's poor lifestyle choices.
  6. #6  

    Default Re: Universal Health care

    Most people understand the concept of spreading the costs out through insurance. Heck, every item you buy has a certain amount of added cost to account for unexpected losses due to things like theft.

    What makes this different is the government had a part in making healthcare so expensive in the first place (but by no means the only part), and now wants to intrude more while claiming to be doing it for our own good. And any time you get big government involved, you can pretty much say goodbye to cost controls, and the prices of services will go much higher than they should be in the first place because doctors and hospitals can get away with it. In effect, making the taxpayer pay more for others than they would in a freer market for the same coverages of others as you are implying.
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    Default Re: Universal Health care

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    The government giveth, the government can taketh away. I feel we should be responsible for paying for our own healthcare in a market freer than we currently have.
    Do you also feel that you should reach into your pocket and pull out some cash each time the fire department or paramedics show up at your house? Should 911 be a pay per minute phone call? Should we each have our own nukes and tanks in our yard? Where do you draw the line, and why?

    I'm puzzled at why so many trust government for so many other things, including aspects of healthcare, but the minute you get to a universal healhcare plan of some sort, they have a fit over it. To me, you already get healthcare from government services. An ambulance showing up at your door is healthcare. Medicare, is healthcare. The FDA keeping food and drugs safe is healthcare. The EPA keeping water and air safe is healthcare. Anything that keeps you healthy and safe in some way, is a form of healthcare,.,.even if preventitive in nature.
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  8. #8  

    Default Re: Universal Health care

    Quote Originally Posted by GadgetGator View Post
    Do you also feel that you should reach into your pocket and pull out some cash each time the fire department or paramedics show up at your house? Should 911 be a pay per minute phone call? Should we each have our own nukes and tanks in our yard? Where do you draw the line, and why?

    I'm puzzled at why so many trust government for so many other things, including aspects of healthcare, but the minute you get to a universal healhcare plan of some sort, they have a fit over it. To me, you already get healthcare from government services. An ambulance showing up at your door is healthcare. Medicare, is healthcare. The FDA keeping food and drugs safe is healthcare. The EPA keeping water and air safe is healthcare. Anything that keeps you healthy and safe in some way, is a form of healthcare,.,.even if preventitive in nature.
    It's not surprising to me. There's a big ad campaign going on against national healthcare. Here's the latest: and
  9. #9  

    Default Re: Universal Health care

    Quote Originally Posted by GadgetGator View Post
    Do you also feel that you should reach into your pocket and pull out some cash each time the fire department or paramedics show up at your house? Should 911 be a pay per minute phone call? Should we each have our own nukes and tanks in our yard? Where do you draw the line, and why?
    Those are all examples of emergency services (and not part of general healthcare for purposes of this topic), and national defense (clearly a part of the federal government's legitimate role). So they don't apply in this discussion.

    An ambulance showing up at your door is healthcare. Medicare, is healthcare. The FDA keeping food and drugs safe is healthcare. The EPA keeping water and air safe is healthcare. Anything that keeps you healthy and safe in some way, is a form of healthcare,.,.even if preventitive in nature.
    Answered in order: Emergency service, a separate issue likely needing reform already, keeps foods safe but doesn't force you to ear a certain way (and sketchy in its own right), also not dictating how you live (also a sketchy agency I could rant on about from first hand experience).

    All of your points don't deal with how you choose to live your life from a health standpoint and are not what Obamacare is about.
  10. #10  

    Default Re: Universal Health care

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    Those are all examples of emergency services (and not part of general healthcare for purposes of this topic), and national defense (clearly a part of the federal government's legitimate role). So they don't apply in this discussion.


    Answered in order: Emergency service, a separate issue likely needing reform already, keeps foods safe but doesn't force you to ear a certain way (and sketchy in its own right), also not dictating how you live (also a sketchy agency I could rant on about from first hand experience).

    All of your points don't deal with how you choose to live your life from a health standpoint and are not what Obamacare is about.
    Totally disagree. What is a government's fundemental role? From where I sit it is to keep people safe within it's borders. That is the prime directive. Protecting air, water, food is keeping you safe. Protecting you from foreign invaders is keeping you safe. Not having to watch your house burn while you scramble to pay the fire people, is keeping you safe. Not having to cough up a credit card number each time you call 911 or a policeman shows up at your door is keeping you safe. Insuring you have proper access to healthcare keeps you safe as well.

    I do not understand why you make a distinction between those things. They are not different. It is all the same....ultimately protecting life and limb. If it is a govenments role to keep you safe from bombs falling on your head, and to pass laws keeping you safe in the workplace, why wouldn't it be their role to keep viruses from entering your body too? To me this stuff is just common sense.

    Other industrilized countries of the world understand this. Why don't we?
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  11. #11  

    Default Re: Universal Health care

    If you want a discussion on those other topics, then they belong in their own thread. This one is about healthcare as it relates to you being treated by doctors and how it's paid for. Not about emergency services as I've said. This being the second time, I'll let you know now that I personally won't be responding to you trying to include them in to this discussion in any future posts you make.

    I will address your logic though. Government is assigned to protect us from certain things that most individuals can't do themselves. I.e. your point on foreign invaders and calling 911 for a house burning down. But those various issues are addressed by different levels of local, state, and federal government and funded accordingly. They are not tasked to protect us from ourselves.

    By your logic, why doesn't the government furnish everyone "free" (taxpayer paid) housing, food, clothing, and more? All those would also fall under your overly broad definition of healthcare and are certainly more important than the services you mentioned. After all, you don't need a fire department if you have nothing to burn down. Are you also of the belief those items should be government provided? If so, who decides how much food you get, what house you get, clothing style you can have? Those are similar to my disagreements with the idea of universal healthcare as is being discussed (minus your extras brought to the table). I demonstrated where and how I drew the line in my prior post, so curious where yours is.
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  12. #12  

    Default Re: Universal Health care

    I believe the issue for healthcare is dicey because it can ruin someone through practically no fault of there own, be it genetic traits or just bad luck. Diabetes, cancer etc.. can all be debilitating no matter how good a life you decide to lead and can ruin a family financially regardless of there decisions. Much like gun rights i believe that instead of trying to view this as a right we view these as privileges. My reasoning, i view a right as being related to living i.e. life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are all unalienable rights. They exist because we exist and are born. Gun rights and healthcare exist because they exist which is distinctly different. Past that we as a people then need to decide if the privileges of healthcare treatment be the same for everyone or should it be tiered? (I won't get into better doctors etc... if someone wants to argue nothing can be the same because of this, go ahead knock yourself out). I for one say people should have the privilege of healthcare in this country (and gun rights actually) but i worry about how to bring cost down. The single payer system seems like it would work to drive down cost. It is basically an option on the health of the entire country.
  13. #13  

    Default Re: Universal Health care

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    If you want a discussion on those other topics, then they belong in their own thread. This one is about healthcare as it relates to you being treated by doctors and how it's paid for. Not about emergency services as I've said. This being the second time, I'll let you know now that I personally won't be responding to you trying to include them in to this discussion in any future posts you make.

    I will address your logic though. Government is assigned to protect us from certain things that most individuals can't do themselves. I.e. your point on foreign invaders and calling 911 for a house burning down. But those various issues are addressed by different levels of local, state, and federal government and funded accordingly. They are not tasked to protect us from ourselves.

    By your logic, why doesn't the government furnish everyone "free" (taxpayer paid) housing, food, clothing, and more? All those would also fall under your overly broad definition of healthcare and are certainly more important than the services you mentioned. After all, you don't need a fire department if you have nothing to burn down. Are you also of the belief those items should be government provided? If so, who decides how much food you get, what house you get, clothing style you can have? Those are similar to my disagreements with the idea of universal healthcare as is being discussed (minus your extras brought to the table). I demonstrated where and how I drew the line in my prior post, so curious where yours is.
    Then don't respond. It won't stop me from saying that the things are linked....because they are. You draw some weird distinction between paramedics performing emergency service in your home, driveway and on the way to the hospital, but have a completely different set of rules for when a person actually arrives at the hospital. Why?

    Now, as to the other things you listed, People can live anywhere. Food can be grown yourself. And ask any nudist and they will tell you clothes aren't needed in order to survive. If it gets too cold somewhere, make a fire, cuddle with somone or move to a warmer place. Or make your own clothes. All things that people can do themselves. But, healthcare, like your government foreign invader reasoning, is something people cannot do for themselves. If you slump over after having a heart attack, you can't take care of that on your own. You are going to need some help. Skilled help. And a facility with all sort of equipment that hospitals have.

    As for the notion that you don't need a fire department if you don't have a house, well, yes you would. Hillsides still catch on fire. Businesses still catch on fire. Cars still catch on fire. There still needs to be people prying others out of twisted cars or factory machines. Also paramedic services are linked with fire. Although really, if you think those other things you mentioned are more important then police or fire, then why are you not calling for "free" housing and clothes yourself, while calling for the elimination of police and fire assistance?
  14. Thread Author  Thread Author    #14  

    Default Re: Universal Health care

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    By your logic, why doesn't the government furnish everyone "free" (taxpayer paid) housing, food, clothing, and more? All those would also fall under your overly broad definition of healthcare and are certainly more important than the services you mentioned. After all, you don't need a fire department if you have nothing to burn down. Are you also of the belief those items should be government provided? If so, who decides how much food you get, what house you get, clothing style you can have? Those are similar to my disagreements with the idea of universal healthcare as is being discussed (minus your extras brought to the table). I demonstrated where and how I drew the line in my prior post, so curious where yours is.
    You do know the Goverments do try to provide shelter for those who cannot afford it right and allowance to buy food and water etc?
    With Government health care here we can choose our own treatments and the insurance is relatively cheap about 100 a month on basically 80% of electives costs covered.
    Tom Fairclough
    Credo faber est quisque fortunae suae
    I believe every man is the artisan of his own fortune
  15. #15  

    Default Re: Universal Health care

    Quote Originally Posted by GadgetGator View Post
    You draw some weird distinction between paramedics performing emergency service in your home, driveway and on the way to the hospital, but have a completely different set of rules for when a person actually arrives at the hospital. Why?
    At least this specific service is related to the topic at hand, and for this one, I don't draw much distinction. Right now, they are mostly paid for through various means like general healthcare issues are via direct patient payments after the fact, and insurances. Many probably get some sort of local funding by the city, and some ambulance services require you to pay membership dues (making it similar to a small insurance group in a way).

    Now, as to the other things you listed, People can live anywhere. Food can be grown yourself. And ask any nudist and they will tell you clothes aren't needed in order to survive. If it gets too cold somewhere, make a fire, cuddle with somone or move to a warmer place. Or make your own clothes. All things that people can do themselves.
    I agree with you here and you're kinda making my point for me. It's about making proper choices and taking personal responsibility for said choices.

    But, healthcare, like your government foreign invader reasoning, is something people cannot do for themselves. If you slump over after having a heart attack, you can't take care of that on your own. You are going to need some help. Skilled help. And a facility with all sort of equipment that hospitals have.
    So why can't that prior reasoning be used here? I don't know how to build a house, so I'd buy one or pay someone to build it. I don't know enough about personal gardening, so I pay others to supply my food. Ditto clothing. True, healthcare is expensive. Thanks to government over regulation and lax cost controls, fraud and our lawsuit happy society. But this is what insurance is for and it takes the place of doing it yourself. Just because I can't diagnose and treat my own issues or perform surgery on myself doesn't mean the government has to step in and pay someone else to do so. And it could be had for decent prices if you make the right lifestyle choices. If this issue is so important to you, why not advocate for people to be more responsible for it themselves? Drop the cable tv, drop the internet, drop the fancy cell phone plans, eating out, movies, games, etc etc etc? Those are not necessities to life. Do whatever it takes to make sure you and your family are fully cared/insured for by yourselves. That's something to be much more proud of than keeping up with the Jones.

    As for the notion that you don't need a fire department if you don't have a house, well, yes you would. Hillsides still catch on fire. Businesses still catch on fire. Cars still catch on fire. There still needs to be people prying others out of twisted cars or factory machines.
    I was using sarcasm to make my point, but I digress.

    Although really, if you think those other things you mentioned are more important then police or fire, then why are you not calling for "free" housing and clothes yourself, while calling for the elimination of police and fire assistance?
    You're twisting my words and taking them out of context. I never called for the elimination of those other services and addressed their roles in how they differ from the personal healthcare topic. I also never advocated for free housing, food, and clothing. What I did do was take the logic you were using in promoting government funded/provided healthcare and applied a little reason to it using [URLhttp://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs] Maslow's hierarchy of needs[/URL]. After all, that's the only way your logic would be at least consistent.
  16. #16  

    Default Re: Universal Health care

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairclough View Post
    You do know the Goverments do try to provide shelter for those who cannot afford it right and allowance to buy food and water etc?
    With Government health care here we can choose our own treatments and the insurance is relatively cheap about 100 a month on basically 80% of electives costs covered.
    I'm for providing some level of safety net. I don't know about your country, but those entitlements in the U.S. are rife with corruption, so the people that legitimately need them don't get the help they should. That's one of the biggest reasons I'm against any sort of government funded/socialized/universal/etc plan here. I only see the corruption growing, despite the intentions. Now if they could prove themselves that it wouldn't happen, then maybe I'd be more open to discussion, but I still believe in the personal responsibility aspect of things too.
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    Default Re: Universal Health care

    The government should provide healthcare for free for low income families or individuals, while allowing others to have private insurance if they want. But they should not force it onto us, at the blade of a recurring, increasing fine.

    Now you may say: What about Medicare and Medicaid?

    There are too many holes/expenses that they don't cover. And states are free to interpret and administer them as they see fit. Something such as free healthcare for the poor, should be handled on the national level, not at the state level. Allowing the states to make their own laws for them, makes it so that there will be those who receive unfair treatment or don't receive care at all. As the state says they don't qualify, whereas if it were at the national level they may.

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  18. Thread Author  Thread Author    #18  

    Default Re: Universal Health care

    Quote Originally Posted by gollum18 View Post
    The government should provide healthcare for free for low income families or individuals, while allowing others to have private insurance if they want. But they should not force it onto us, at the blade of a recurring, increasing fine.

    Now you may say: What about Medicare and Medicaid?

    There are too many holes/expenses that they don't cover. And states are free to interpret and administer them as they see fit. Something such as free healthcare for the poor, should be handled on the national level, not at the state level. Allowing the states to make their own laws for them, makes it so that there will be those who receive unfair treatment or don't receive care at all. As the state says they don't qualify, whereas if it were at the national level they may.

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    We have a dual system in Australia. The government system is not bad, its just there is a wait if there is someone has a higher priority treatment requited and you want a note private area you go private insurance.

    Now we do have a tax, it was introduced last year. Its 1.5% of taxable income and your except if your from a low economic sociostatus, on current government needs benefits etc. Thus the low income earners don't pay it. You are only taxed of you don't have a health care... But some insurer's made cover which is a bout 150 a year which is cheaper than the levy.

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    Default Re: Universal Health care

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    I only see the corruption growing, despite the intentions.
    Corruption in health care is a serious problem. Do you think if the people got more involved in their government, we could reduce some of the corruption? Is the government accountable to the people, or is it untouchable?
  20. #20  

    Default Re: Universal Health care

    A valid point, and I'm not sure which way society as a whole is trending. Seems both sides are growing, either in size or simply voice. While I agree the public being more involved would help lessen the corruption, I don't know if society is trending in that direction or to simply not care as long as they think the government is taking care of them.
  21. #21  

    Default Re: Universal Health care

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    Someone please show me in our Constitution where national healthcare is found. It appears to me to be left to the states. If you want to make it the federal governments job, change the constitution by ammending it.
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  22. #22  

    Default Re: Universal Health care

    Quote Originally Posted by BioMed007 View Post
    . .....If you want to make it the federal governments job, change the constitution by ammending it.
    Easier said than done. Do you remember the ERA (Equal Rights Amendment) a proposed amendment to the Constitution designed to guarantee equal rights for women? Opposition by the ultra right killed it, lead by people like Phyllis Schlafly. Today you have the same opposition against National Health Care, lead by Ted Cruz, the Koch Brothers and the Tea Party.
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  23. #23  
    qxr
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    Default Re: Universal Health care

    Remember the civil rights ammendment. ..democrats had a super majority I.e. controlled the house of reps. The senate and the presidency. Republicans passed the civils rights bill not democrats including al gore sr.
    We needed healthcare reform. Small smart bills that addeessed specific peoblems not this monstrosity. Insurance portability. Fix medicaid fraud and abuse. Fix medicare fraud and abuse. Frivolous malpractice lawsuit I.e. tort reform combat doctors practicing defensive medicine, ordering tests to c.y.a. later if sued. Doctor shortage not enough schools or residencies for American. doctors to stay in the usa .

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  24. #24  

    Default Re: Universal Health care

    Quote Originally Posted by qxr View Post
    Remember the civil rights ammendment. ..
    I think you're talking about the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
  25. #25  
    qxr
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    Default Re: Universal Health care

    Yes. My bad. Wrong word, correct vote.

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