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  1. #101  
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    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Where did you get that information? I've never looked into it because I've never been on welfare, but I don't think you can purchase cigarettes, alcohol, smartphones, cable TV, buy a new car or go on amusement park rides with a welfare debit card. If you have other information, please link me to it because I am obviously ignorant on the issue.

    I know unemployment insurance varies from state to state, but isn't it paid by your employer buying or paying unemployment insurance, not your tax money? Link me and correct me if I am wrong.

    Thanks!
    I think he means the person utilizing other sources of income to purchase things while they subsist on programs. I'd also agree take unemployment off of there in any case, but you're right, many programs are set up already to limit the ability to directly spend the funds on unessential items.

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  2. #102  
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    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Here's a quick set of matrices that I put together for car payments, grouped by original cost less down payment (loan amount), term and interest rate. The point of it is that it demonstrates that someone wanting to pay $100 a month for a car, is basically looking in the $0 to $6,000 range, assuming they have up to $1,250 to put down, etc. For that same $100 you can lease an Altima, Avenger, Fusion, Chrysler 200, etc that's brand new. Yes, at the end you don't own the vehicle unless you choose to purchase the delta, however a $0-$5,000 at the end of 3 years isn't necessarily worth much more than $0 and had maintenance costs added in, so the math CAN balance out if you're savvy. Then again, if you can buy used and work on it yourself with good connections for parts, you can make a car last many years and it can be much cheaper to do that. All depends on the numbers and the person.


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  3. #103  

    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingIsTrue View Post
    From a math perspective it's entirely based on your habits. If you're the type of person who upgrades cars like most people upgrade cell phones, it can work out to be beneficial or stupid and entirely dependent on the buyer/leasee and the specifics of the lease/sale, vehicle, market, etc. There are some people who will always have a car payment, and for those people it's a consideration worth making, especially if they're terrible negotiators when it comes time to trade in, or are not handy with repairs and want maintenance schedules and costs to be someone else's task to deal with. A lot of leases include options to purchase as well, however I would recommend not doing that in many situations. Financing a used vehicle almost always ends up with a loan that's at least temporarily, if not permanently upside down and puts nearly all of the risk on the buyer, while leasing is essentially paying the cost of depreciation and usage.

    Same scenario as above, if you can get a 2009 Taurus for $2500 up front + $250 a month for 60 months for a total of $17,500 paid on what amounts to a $12,000 car that is worth $4,000 at the end of the cycle, + all the maintenance costs incurred on what ends up being a 9 year old car... or you can get a 2013 Mercedes for 3 years at $175 a month + no fees, they pay most of the maintenance and in 3 years you get a 2016 Mercedes for $175 a month + no fees for a total of $12,600 paid, you're now ahead by $900 not including the maintance costs incurred on the Taurus and have an extra year of vehicle, in two 3 year periods, versus one 5 year period... which one is the better decision? Obviously there are some cases where the numbers will work out very differently in favor of either choice, but in this case buying the used car is a pretty poor decision from a pure numbers standpoint.

    Plus, a lot of people have trouble coming up with down payments, so in some cases new cars can greatly alleviate the bulk up front. One could easily argue that if you can't save for a down payment or buy it outright, you can't afford the car... but that doesn't help if you're searching for a job or have a job and absolutely cannot have your transportation fail or be non-existent.
    You're mistaken on a few big issues regarding depreciation costs, maintenance costs, and the dealer's profit in leases. I wouldn't mind discussing this more with you, but I don't want to derail this thread more. Pm's work or we could start a new thread about buying vs leasing if you'd like.
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  4. #104  
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    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    You're mistaken on a few big issues regarding depreciation costs, maintenance costs, and the dealer's profit in leases. I wouldn't mind discussing this more with you, but I don't want to derail this thread more. Pm's work or we could start a new thread about buying vs leasing if you'd like.
    Didn't want to go super deep into it, just to say that someone driving a new car isn't necessarily a sign that they're being financially irresponsible. There are a lot of factors, and that might have been the cheapest short term viable option available to them. Basically addressing the broken paradigm that assumes income correlates to intelligence, responsibility, work ethic or anything else, rather than a combination of preparedness, drive and opportunity (being in the right place and time to capitalize on an opportunity or having the right circumstances to successfully implement your own opportunities). New shoes was brought up in another thread and it was the same issue, there are a myriad of ways that a person could have shoes obtained for their child, most of which are scamming no one. The problem of prejudging is almost always a problem in the perception, not the reality. Cars is just an example

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  5. #105  
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    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    ... start a new thread about buying vs leasing if you'd like.
    I'd be interested in reading this ^^^

    (My wife flat-out refuses to owe money to anybody for anything.)



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    Last edited by llamabreath; 11-03-2013 at 01:30 AM.
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  6. #106  
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    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by llamabreath View Post
    I'd be interested in reading this ^^^



    •• Signatures, shmignatures...
    If we go there, we're going full blown cost benefit analysis, dynamic ROI analysis, possibly a weighted system that includes net cash flows, accrued daily and compounded monthly, based on cost of capital from all investments, not just purchase price and interest, but maintenance schedules, fuel mileage, impact of investment in alternative matter and we're figuring this stuff out with an input control that allows users to customize the importance of flexibility and cash on hand versus waste handling and total cost. This is what I do, lol.

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  7. #107  
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    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingIsTrue View Post
    If we go there, we're going full blown cost benefit analysis, dynamic ROI analysis, possibly a weighted system that includes net cash flows, accrued daily and compounded monthly, based on cost of capital from all investments, not just purchase price and interest, but maintenance schedules, fuel mileage, impact of investment in alternative matter and we're figuring this stuff out with an input control that allows users to customize the importance of flexibility and cash on hand versus waste handling and total cost. This is what I do, lol.
    lol lol lol, I knew this would rumble that monster out of you

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  8. #108  

    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    I can simplify it down quite a bit and income situation and ROI's have nothing to do with it. Let's say you, for whatever reason, want to cycle a car every 3 years (I think it's pretty well accepted buying outright is best long term, so sticking to the 3 year example for leasing purposes). You're probably going to drive it the same way and end up in the same condition, with the same depreciated trade in value regardless of financing options. In a purchase and standard loan, yes you have a higher monthly payment in most cases, but there's no real surprises at the end. You trade in, hopefully pay enough down to at least even up the loan if needed, or roll the upside down portion into the new loan.

    In a lease, that monthly rate may be cheaper, but those dealers have a darn good idea how much that car will be worth when you turn it in under the conditions stipulated in the lease. I.e under your mileage allotment for example, and they want it in immaculate condition for the highest expected value (and highest chance for "gotcha" fees). Even if you don't factor in things like dealer profit and their expenses they need to recoup, you can bet those cheap monthly payments aren't going to cover the cost of depreciation under normal use. Where do you think the make up amount is going to come from? Your pocket. Turn it in in less than excellent condition? You're charged for that. Tire tread life lower than they want? You'll probably be assessed a fee for new ones. Late on an oil change? Oh you bet there will be a penalty, and likely more if you don't keep your shop records. Their contracts are pretty much iron clad to insure they make a hefty profit off you.

    Is it possible to turn in a leased car and not pay any extras on top of the monthly rate? Theatrically yes depending on the lease, but it would be so much trouble and involve so much worry about anything happening to it that it's not likely and not worth the hassle. Take a good look at some "certified pre-owned" type vehicles sometime. Those are often lease turn ins and will give you a good idea what condition the dealer wants them back in. Betcha they look dang near new. Ask yourself, is it worth those cheap payments to be socked with those high penalties at the end? If you're in a situation where you think leasing is a cheap way to go, then no. Well, it never is, but more power to you if you go into it knowing you're about to sign into the most expensive way to own (or rent, in this case) a car and can safely afford it.

    Now for those tempting leases that offer inclusive maintenance schedules? You're going to be charged dealership rates for everything when they come up with the terms of the contract, whereas you would save hundreds, if not thousands if you had the option of going to independent shops for basic maintenance like oil and tire changes.
  9. #109  

    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Oh, one more thing I almost forgot. That 2009 Taurus will have next to no depreciation at the end of the loan compared to the combined depreciation of the two new Mercedes used above. The biggest hit in depreciation comes in the first few years of ownership, and that loss alone in the above example would probably cover the entire cost of the Taurus with nothing to show for it. Heck, the depreciation in just one Mercedes may buy that Taurus.
  10. #110  
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    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    I've leased one car, it had nothing added in the way of fees. I've financed two cars, one new and one used, but other than that I have always bought outright. I'm sure there are people that sign foolish leases, but I have a hard time believing that is normal, because I don't feel like I got an abnormal agreement. The lease payments are based upon the expected depreciation and the goal of the dealer is to make you a repeat customer... screwing everyone over would end that quick. Most leases are not zero sign, but shopping can find them. I'm definitely not saying everyone should do it, but it exists because it is valuable to a certain type of consumer, especially enterprise operations.

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  11. #111  
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    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    With cars, insurance, phone plans, housing strategies, etc, everyone should learn the options and weigh the choices for their own situation. There are a ton of variables that deeply impact value and affordability.

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  12. #112  
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    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingIsTrue View Post
    Wouldn't it be neat if they grew up and decided to do what's in the best interest of the nation and their constituents (in that order) instead of playing petty and vindictive games with the lives and livelihoods of millions stuck in the balance?
    Why would they do that when they can penalize with fines via your tax return for not having insurance. Government buying ammunition for the irs? Where ever did that information come from? They want you to not to be able to buy it. I work two jobs. One offers health care one does not. I don't want it and I'm not getting it. I don't have time to bleed/get sick. Suck it government.

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  13. #113  
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    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingIsTrue View Post
    If we have to choose between one extreme and the other, I'd personally like to see the government not getting into people's private lives in any ways at all, rather than controlling it entirely. I moved to the United States of America, not Iran or North Korea. I don't think the government should be allowed to collect information about a person's habits, even if we're paying for them, and especially should not be able to dictate those habits. What's the difference between a welfare recipient and any other civic employee? Money is coming from the same place, but we don't tell the employee how to spend their salary.

    Given that the population that doesn't self advance themselves out of the programs is very small, I think we can find ways to control what the funds they receive are spent on... such as using debt cards that only work for certain goods and services that require a photo ID to utilize (prevents selling benefits, etc). Now, will people buy goods and possible sell those goods? Maybe, but that's beyond the scope of us caring, because people trade goods and services all the time, it's called business. But nothing changes from today's model, where we control what is purchased with our money, but what happens after that is none of our business unless it's endangering children or violating other laws, both of which are handled on an indvidual case by case basis, rather than with broad punishments towards everyone else.

    It sucks, but since it costs around $.08 per average tax payer (that's not receiving a refund) per month to finance food stamps, personally I don't care about my less than $1 per year going to that cause, etc. Yes, it all adds up, but if $.95 of my $.96 cents is helping people who need it and $.01 is being used by people to do stuff I'd prefer they didn't, I still don't care because I'm not them and they're free to live in poverty if that's what they wish to do.
    A government employee is selling a service for money. Just like any other job... I do not understand why you would make the connection between them and a person receiving entitlement benefits at all.

    Food stamps you can only by food and health items, but what about what other income the recipient has? How is it right that they go out and blow the rest of their money on cigarettes, shiny rims, and designer clothing when I am paying for their necessities?
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  14. #114  
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    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoYankees44 View Post
    A government employee is selling a service for money. Just like any other job... I do not understand why you would make the connection between them and a person receiving entitlement benefits at all.

    Food stamps you can only by food and health items, but what about what other income the recipient has? How is it right that they go out and blow the rest of their money on cigarettes, shiny rims, and designer clothing when I am paying for their necessities?
    It's not right, I'm just not comfortable with the government barging into their personal business and making choices for them. That is also very not right. If I have to deal with a penny or even a dollar a year that goes to something that I dislike, that's preferable to encouraging government intrusion into citizens lives. While the line may seem clear and fair, they WILL cross the line and abuse the privacy of others if given the latitude.

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  15. #115  

    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoYankees44 View Post
    ....Food stamps you can only by food and health items, but what about what other income the recipient has? How is it right that they go out and blow the rest of their money on cigarettes, shiny rims, and designer clothing when I am paying for their necessities?
    You make it sound like everyone on welfare is doing this. What you're describing sounds like fraud to me. If you think someone is committing welfare fraud, report it.
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  16. #116  
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    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    You make it sound like everyone on welfare is doing this. What you're describing sounds like fraud to me. If you think someone is committing welfare fraud, report it.
    Welfare has a success rate of 90% in a five year churn, meaning up to ten percent literally can't make it without assistance, at least not that quickly, or aren't trying to move forward. Most estimates are around 1% fraud and around 15% of total expenses being program waste. I'd love to reduce the 15% by a lot prior to going nuts over the 1%. That 1% represents about .1% of the federal budget, which is still a lot of dollars, but big picture its insignificant unless the recoveries are super low hanging fruit. Some waste and some fraud are inevitable and 1% might not be unreasonable, but 15% waste does seem like it could be beneficial to examine, as that's over 1% of the budget. Not as beneficial as examining revenue streams, foreign investments and subsidies for giants.

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  17. #117  
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    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    You make it sound like everyone on welfare is doing this. What you're describing sounds like fraud to me. If you think someone is committing welfare fraud, report it.
    Of course everyone is not, but take a drive through the public housing section of the city I grew up in or take a glance cars that the students drive that are on the "free lunch" list at the high school and your tune might change a bit. I have known lots of people in food stamps/welfare. Only one person I know has ever gotten off after being on. And the only reason he got off is because he finally got a job using his college degree and went over the line of income. He could have gotten off sooner, but his wife refused to work when they could get more money in food stamps than she could go and make working.
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  18. #118  
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    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingIsTrue View Post
    It's not right, I'm just not comfortable with the government barging into their personal business and making choices for them. That is also very not right. If I have to deal with a penny or even a dollar a year that goes to something that I dislike, that's preferable to encouraging government intrusion into citizens lives. While the line may seem clear and fair, they WILL cross the line and abuse the privacy of others if given the latitude.

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    The government would only have the right to limit if some is taking entitlements. And the laws would be as such to where is the person was only buy what they needed to live and better them selves. Which if they are truly only taking the entitlements because they have no other options, there will be no limits that they already should not have.

    For example, a lady goes around to businesses and restaurants and sells pens for 3$. She is a deaf mute and as far as I know has know family. I would regularly buy one from her for 20$ and bought her lunch one time. Until one day I caught her smoking. She will NEVER get another dime from me. If she has enough money to buy cigarettes, she does not need money from me for anything else.
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  19. #119  

    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoYankees44 View Post
    Of course everyone is not, but take a drive through the public housing section of the city I grew up in or take a glance cars that the students drive that are on the "free lunch" list at the high school and your tune might change a bit. I have known lots of people in food stamps/welfare. Only one person I know has ever gotten off after being on. And the only reason he got off is because he finally got a job using his college degree and went over the line of income. He could have gotten off sooner, but his wife refused to work when they could get more money in food stamps than she could go and make working.
    I am still having trouble understanding your statement. First you say, "Of course everyone is not". Then you say, "I have known lots of people in food stamps/welfare.", and then tell me, "Only one person I know has ever gotten off after being on". That sounds like about everybody to me.

    I am sure there's fraud and abuse, and a drug dealer here and there with the big rims you mentioned. Go ahead and bust them, but you're going pay for their welfare while they're in jail. Of course I am 100% against any type of fraud or abuse, but I just don't think it's to the extent that you're portraying it.
  20. #120  

    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoYankees44 View Post
    .....For example, a lady goes around to businesses and restaurants and sells pens for 3$. She is a deaf mute and as far as I know has know family. I would regularly buy one from her for 20$ and bought her lunch one time. Until one day I caught her smoking. She will NEVER get another dime from me. If she has enough money to buy cigarettes, she does not need money from me for anything else.
    I don't disagree with your thinking here. I would do the same thing as you. I've seen the same thing at Union Station in Chicago. I remember this one guy begging every morning for change. One morning I arrived earlier and I saw him talking on his new Galaxy S2 cell phone.
  21. #121  
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    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    I am still having trouble understanding your statement. First you say, "Of course everyone is not". Then you say, "I have known lots of people in food stamps/welfare.", and then tell me, "Only one person I know has ever gotten off after being on". That sounds like about everybody to me.

    I am sure there's fraud and abuse, and a drug dealer here and there with the big rims you mentioned. Go ahead and bust them, but you're going pay for their welfare while they're in jail. Of course I am 100% against any type of fraud or abuse, but I just don't think it's to the extent that you're portraying it.
    That is only the people I know personally and have been able to verify their situation. I am smart enough to realize that my view is disproportionate. I am sure that the majority really need the help, but I cannot ignore the large percentage that I see around me.

    I don't want the system to go away. Not at all. But I do want to see heavy reform. I want government aid to be the absolute last option for people. I want a society that people help each other by choice instead of a society that forces help by taxes where much of the money wasted through bureaucracy and you have no control over who gets your money or what it is used on.
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  22. Thread Author  Thread Author    #122  
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    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingIsTrue View Post
    For that same $100 you can lease an Altima, Avenger, Fusion, Chrysler 200, etc that's brand new.
    That is not possible without a TON of upfront money.
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  23. #123  

    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by pappy53 View Post
    That is not possible without a TON of upfront money.
    I missed that post. I think he is also over depreciating the used car in his scenario. A $6000 used car will probably still be worth about $4-5000 at the end of the three years, depending on the vehicle and condition. He says it would basically be zero, which is a gross over estimation unless it's ran into the ground. But that still goes back to my earlier point that the depreciation cost on a new vehicle is going to be way higher. Maintenance costs aren't going to be all that much either when buying a good quality used car. Quite possibly less as car parts for older vehicles are often cheaper and less complex. Heck, on my base model 2002 Focus I bought brand new and still own with 160k miles on it, the only things I've had to replace that were a simple failure and not either regular maintenance or an accident are a few wheel bearings (I like to say I drove it until the wheels fell off, then put them back on and drove some more ). Blue Book on it is still US$1200 trade in, $2000 private sale value in "good" condition. It's been hovering around that for quite some time.
  24. #124  
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    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    I missed that post. I think he is also over depreciating the used car in his scenario. A $6000 used car will probably still be worth about $4-5000 at the end of the three years, depending on the vehicle and condition. He says it would basically be zero, which is a gross over estimation unless it's ran into the ground. But that still goes back to my earlier point that the depreciation cost on a new vehicle is going to be way higher. Maintenance costs aren't going to be all that much either when buying a good quality used car. Quite possibly less as car parts for older vehicles are often cheaper and less complex. Heck, on my base model 2002 Focus I bought brand new and still own with 160k miles on it, the only things I've had to replace that were a simple failure and not either regular maintenance or an accident are a few wheel bearings (I like to say I drove it until the wheels fell off, then put them back on and drove some more ). Blue Book on it is still US$1200 trade in, $2000 private sale value in "good" condition. It's been hovering around that for quite some time.
    I was referring to trade in after 5-6 years, so buying a used 3 year old car from a dealer and trading a 8-9 year old car to a dealer. Private sales on both ends would save more money if you can get it to work out, but the assumption used was that the consumer would always have a car payment. Obviously buying outright from auction or a private seller is less cost long term.

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  25. #125  
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    Default Re: Delay Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by pappy53 View Post
    That is not possible without a TON of upfront money.
    Usually $0 to $1,500, depending on credit. They run those specials several times a year. I spend a lot of time at the Dodge dealership here because I have a couple of friends in sales that love to shoe off the new jeeps and challengers, but I run numbers on cars a lot, always looking for a solid deal.

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