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    llamabreath's Avatar
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    Default Homeless People

    IN MOST CASES, is it their own fault that they're homeless (by making ill-conceived decisions throughout life), or rather, are they an expected parallel to society, the result of inadequate government or just going through a spell of plain ol' bad luck?

    And how can homelessness be eradicated on a noticeable scale?

    In addition -
    What do YOU do when you see a homeless person or when one approaches you?




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  2. #2  

    Default Re: Homeless People

    Is there a plot of land likable to Australia no one is using right now? IJS it worked for the UK and some of their problems.

    I get people fall on hard times, but most major cities have programs to help people get off the street and organize their life. I have no idea why anyone would chose not to utilize those programs unless they're waiting for some politician to save them.
  3. #3  
    Aquila's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homeless People

    Unemployment, substance abuse, mental illness, poverty, foreclosure, bankruptcy, crime, poor education, fear and hatred are built in at a foundational level and promoted by our current business model. The model won't work without a substantial failure level, which also has to slowly increase, forever.

    Yes, some people are in a bad position because they did something or some things stupid. Rather than give that helping hand, generally as soon as they're down, we kick them hard, hard enough to make standing up on their own near impossible. Then we start to punish them for not getting up. For having the audacity to ask for help. Then we punish their children. We escalate the punishment against their children to the extent that only the strongest and luckiest can ever escape the punishment.

    We can eradicate it only by rethinking the foundation of modern society: debt creates wealth. When we use debt to create money and create a system that has to exponentially grow just to avoid collapse, two things are obvious: 1. All of the interest owed was never created. Someone is going to lose everything to make good on interest. 2. The most wealthy produce nothing but debt.

    Does finding out how an individual fell warrant dissection and assigned shame? If bankruptcy was guaranteed to happen to an ever increasing volume of people, the losers may have bet wrong, but how would we know, why would it matter? Why is our societal instinct to attack the weakest, rather than defend them? Does anyone believe we don't have enough resources readily available to keep every man, woman and child warm, well fed and more healthy with a modicum of respect and dignity shown to them, rather than sneering judgment about how evil these self entitled takers must be?

    Just like the wellfare discussions... Are 3 or 4 people in a thousand going to abuse our generosities.... Yep. Should we care enough to go on witch hunts or to stop helping the thankful 99%? Hell no.

    XT1060. Through spacetime.
  4. #4  

    Default Re: Homeless People

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingIsTrue View Post
    Unemployment, substance abuse, mental illness, poverty, foreclosure, bankruptcy, crime, poor education, fear and hatred are built in at a foundational level and promoted by our current business model. The model won't work without a substantial failure level, which also has to slowly increase, forever.

    Yes, some people are in a bad position because they did something or some things stupid. Rather than give that helping hand, generally as soon as they're down, we kick them hard, hard enough to make standing up on their own near impossible. Then we start to punish them for not getting up. For having the audacity to ask for help. Then we punish their children. We escalate the punishment against their children to the extent that only the strongest and luckiest can ever escape the punishment.

    We can eradicate it only by rethinking the foundation of modern society: debt creates wealth. When we use debt to create money and create a system that has to exponentially grow just to avoid collapse, two things are obvious: 1. All of the interest owed was never created. Someone is going to lose everything to make good on interest. 2. The most wealthy produce nothing but debt.

    Does finding out how an individual fell warrant dissection and assigned shame? If bankruptcy was guaranteed to happen to an ever increasing volume of people, the losers may have bet wrong, but how would we know, why would it matter? Why is our societal instinct to attack the weakest, rather than defend them? Does anyone believe we don't have enough resources readily available to keep every man, woman and child warm, well fed and more healthy with a modicum of respect and dignity shown to them, rather than sneering judgment about how evil these self entitled takers must be?

    Just like the wellfare discussions... Are 3 or 4 people in a thousand going to abuse our generosities.... Yep. Should we care enough to go on witch hunts or to stop helping the thankful 99%? Hell no.

    XT1060. Through spacetime.
    There is a lot of "We" in that and very little "I". Where exactly is personal responsibility in anything you just said? I'm not sure what interest has to do with homelessness. Are you insinuating that interest on loans shouldn't be repaid because it doesn't create anything? It creates the will of someone to loan you money you don't have to put a roof over your families head. If you expect a bank to hand you 250K and not make a dime off that in 30yrs then we've officially entered fantasy land. If interest is the devil then everyone live within their means and we'll all be renting and selling our daughters for dowry's again.
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  5. #5  

    Default Re: Homeless People

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveISU View Post
    Is there a plot of land likable to Australia no one is using right now? IJS it worked for the UK and some of their problems.

    I get people fall on hard times, but most major cities have programs to help people get off the street and organize their life. I have no idea why anyone would chose not to utilize those programs unless they're waiting for some politician to save them.
    Are you saying there are no homeless people in the UK? That would be news to me. In case you were referring to Australia's history as a penal colony, it's interesting to note that the British first chose America instead of Australia. However, they were unable to ship people to America after the Revolutionary War.

    Also, I'm not sure what you mean when you say some homeless people are waiting for a politician to save them. I would think that politicians would simply implement programs to help people get off the street. Those programs already exist, as you have mentioned.

    Maybe we should simply ask the homeless why they won't choose a program to help them. I would be curious to hear what they would say.
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  6. #6  
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    Default Re: Homeless People

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveISU View Post
    There is a lot of "We" in that and very little "I". Where exactly is personal responsibility in anything you just said? I'm not sure what interest has to do with homelessness. Are you insinuating that interest on loans shouldn't be repaid because it doesn't create anything? It creates the will of someone to loan you money you don't have to put a roof over your families head. If you expect a bank to hand you 250K and not make a dime off that in 30yrs then we've officially entered fantasy land. If interest is the devil then everyone live within their means and we'll all be renting and selling our daughters for dowry's again.
    We as a set of demonstrated societal values, I'm not talking about you or me or any individual, but the results of the mentality. Interest is not the root of evil, but basing an economy on debt might be. Interest existed long before banks were put in charge and there were problems then too. We're much better off now in terms of general health and standards of living. The commentary is about a system that is designed to have many people fail, that requires it, and then punishes them when it happens. That last is the point. We intentionally make someone sick, order them to make themselves well and then punish them if it doesn't happen, at all or fast enough. That's the part we can fix. Reach out with a firm handshake and lessons to avoid repeat, rather than a fist and a shovel, to pile more atop them.

    XT1060. Through spacetime.
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  7. #7  

    Default Re: Homeless People

    There seems to be a trend of mental illness in homeless people. I feel sorry for them, regardless of how they ended up in their situation.

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  8. #8  

    Default Re: Homeless People

    Quote Originally Posted by nolittdroid View Post
    There seems to be a trend of mental illness in homeless people. I feel sorry for them, regardless of how they ended up in their situation.
    I would suspect mental illness and substance abuse to be very common among the homeless.

    I have also heard anecdotes of entire families who ended up homeless. For example, sometimes the parents will not tell the children that they've lost their home. Instead, they will say that they're going on an "extended camping trip" and the entire family will live in a tent for months at a time.

    In other situations, sometimes homeless shelters won't take in an entire family, but they will accommodate a single mother and her children right away. So, even if the father is not a deadbeat, he is forced to abandon his family just so his wife and children will have a roof over their head. The father ends up on the streets alone. How this happens in America boggles my mind. Stories like that are always heartbreaking.
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  9. #9  
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    Default Re: Homeless People

    Quote Originally Posted by nolittdroid View Post
    There seems to be a trend of mental illness in homeless people. I feel sorry for them, regardless of how they ended up in their situation.

    ✌SG3/iPad2
    Instead of philosophical pondering as to why we have homeless people, time helping them is much more valuable. Thinking of service in a kitchen this winter can't hurt.

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  10. #10  
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    Default Re: Homeless People

    Every homeless person i have ever known personally(which has been around 5 or so) has chosen to be homeless for various reasons. The one that I have been the closest with actually receives a check every month that would be enough to support himself with basic necessities, but I am not sure what he actually does with it. I know he has occasionally gotten hotel rooms for a couple of days. I also know he has given it to a homeless shelter before. Am man in my community offered him a reduced flat rate for a permanent room in a hotel for him to stay in at one point. The homeless man got extremely violent and the police were called.

    I have also worked in several free kitchens over the years. Most of the actual homeless that have shown up appear to have mental issues. Sometimes they are extremely humble, other times they have an entitled attitude. You never know who you will get on a given day.

    Long story short, my experiences have led me to believe many if not most choose to be homeless. Most of the rest have mental issues. Very few have just hit an extreme run of bad luck.

    You could of course argue that the homeless that choose to be or have mental issues have been forced that way by society, but that goes into much deeper issues.
  11. #11  
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    Default Re: Homeless People

    That is part of the problem. Most stereotype what a homeless person is. They think if you are homeless, you are mentally ill, a veteran, or choose to be. Sure, that is a large facet. Most don't want to be homeless. Plenty of mentally ill people are off the streets. It is a problem of economics. Nobody wants to admit it, but the way certain states are set up, once you fall out for any reason, say a criminal record, can't pass a credit check, language barriers, war vets, and all the other dynamics we have yet to even surface, it is difficult to get back up. Minimum wage if kept up with everything else since the 1960s would be 21 dollars today folks. Economics, that is the major reason people can not sustain. Many homeless are immigrants without family. There are a multitude of reasons that stem from poor economics and I suspect it is going to get any easier.

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  12. #12  

    Default Re: Homeless People

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnly View Post
    That is part of the problem. Most stereotype what a homeless person is.
    However, we do have instances where people used to be homeless, but managed to pick themselves up, mostly with assistance. I'd like to see what works and maybe expand on that.
  13. #13  
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    Default Re: Homeless People

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott7217 View Post
    However, we do have instances where people used to be homeless, but managed to pick themselves up, mostly with assistance. I'd like to see what works and maybe expand on that.
    I like where your head is at, carry on

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  14. #14  

    Default Re: Homeless People

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnly View Post
    I like where your head is at, carry on
    For example, I wouldn't assume that every homeless person is a drug abuser. I would only offer rehabilitation to those who were clearly abusing drugs. To assume that all homeless people are drug abusers robs them of their dignity, and that's something I'd like to preserve.
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  15. #15  
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    Default Re: Homeless People

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott7217 View Post
    I have also heard anecdotes of entire families who ended up homeless. For example, sometimes the parents will not tell the children that they've lost their home. Instead, they will say that they're going on an "extended camping trip" and the entire family will live in a tent for months at a time.
    If any of my family members lost their home, I would do what I could to help them.

    On a side note when I was in college, my now ex-girlfriend was a nursing student. When she did her clinicals, one of them was in a psychiatric ward. She told me that the doctors there would get people in and out because they assumed people were wanting to game the system and get free room and board. Granted this was in the middle of winter, but still.
  16. #16  

    Default Re: Homeless People

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveISU View Post
    Is there a plot of land likable to Australia no one is using right now? IJS it worked for the UK and some of their problems.

    I get people fall on hard times, but most major cities have programs to help people get off the street and organize their life. I have no idea why anyone would chose not to utilize those programs unless they're waiting for some politician to save them.
    I think you are very misinformed about the origins of the founding of Australia - I will give you a hint, it had very similar foundings to America and wait for it - majority of the settlers weren't convicts.
    The problem is - sometimes programs are under funded, were having some particularly shelter and clothing were the is no were enough resources supplied to help the whole community.
  17. #17  

    Default Re: Homeless People

    Bill Gates wrote an article about the interest rates - encouraging more educated citizens and students to find a way for low rate loans for the lower economic groups to allow growth.
    NothingIsTrue is right, think how difficult it is to rise from nothing, no clothes, no home? only a few hundred a fortnight from the government... Good luck with that interview. No employer is wanting to touch a homeless person - which is a real shame. Its a shame we have a government housing shortage over here in Australia
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  18. #18  
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    Default Re: Homeless People

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnly View Post
    Minimum wage if kept up with everything else since the 1960s would be 21 dollars today folks.
    Everything keeps going up except for the wages. When the wages do go up, they do not go up enough. I am just curious, but do you have a source for your statement that "Minimum wage if kept up with everything else since the 1960s would be 21 dollars today folks." I am just wondering, because I would like to read more on this.
  19. #19  

    Default Re: Homeless People

    Quote Originally Posted by JW4VZW View Post
    Everything keeps going up except for the wages. When the wages do go up, they do not go up enough. I am just curious, but do you have a source for your statement that "Minimum wage if kept up with everything else since the 1960s would be 21 dollars today folks." I am just wondering, because I would like to read more on this.
    If you do some digging on the minimum wage, you'll find out that there was a challenge by conservatives on a federally mandated minimum wage, that went all the way to the Supreme Court. Once the Supreme Court ruled that it was legal, conservatives screamed it was a victory for the socialist revolution in America.
  20. #20  
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    Default Re: Homeless People

    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    If you do some digging on the minimum wage, you'll find out that there was a challenge by conservatives on a federally mandated minimum wage, that went all the way to the Supreme Court. Once the Supreme Court ruled that it was legal, conservatives screamed it was a victory for the socialist revolution in America.
    I mean a federally mandated minimum wage could be crazy. Think about it, $7.25 is the current federal minimum wage. That may or may not be enough to support you depending on where you live.
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  22. #22  

    Default Re: Homeless People

    Ok...and just imagine the consequences of a $21/hr. Minimum wage. You think prices are high now. Imagine how much a gallon of milk or a big mac would cost if minimum wage was that high. $21 big mac meal, try to sell that one.

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    Default Re: Homeless People

    Quote Originally Posted by cdmjlt369 View Post
    Ok...and just imagine the consequences of a $21/hr. Minimum wage. You think prices are high now. Imagine how much a gallon of milk or a big mac would cost if minimum wage was that high. $21 big mac meal, try to sell that one.

    Sent from a device that supports the proposed 28th amendment
    Why would costs triple if minimum wage did? Payroll is usually 8-15% of expense, so an almost 300% increase in wages would amount to a 16-30% increase in costs. Demand would increase for consumer goods, I'd expect a 20-25% increase in costs before compounded conditions, 30-35% increase overall, discounting other drivers.

    And that's pretending 100% of payroll is at our below minimum. Obviously the median is around $23, so half or more are already above that figure, which means we're talking about a 15-20% increase in consumer costs, if companies pass 100% of the burden to consumers (they should).

    XT1060. Through spacetime.
  24. #24  

    Default Re: Homeless People

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingIsTrue View Post
    Why would costs triple if minimum wage did? Payroll is usually 8-15% of expense, so an almost 300% increase in wages would amount to a 16-30% increase in costs. Demand would increase for consumer goods, I'd expect a 20-25% increase in costs before compounded conditions, 30-35% increase overall, discounting other drivers.

    And that's pretending 100% of payroll is at our below minimum. Obviously the median is around $23, so half or more are already above that figure, which means we're talking about a 15-20% increase in consumer costs, if companies pass 100% of the burden to consumers (they should).

    XT1060. Through spacetime.
    Because businesses will maintain their bottom line or simply go out of business. You can't expect a company to have to double the salary they are paying their employees and it not show up at the register.

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    Default Re: Homeless People

    Quote Originally Posted by cdmjlt369 View Post
    Because businesses will maintain their bottom line or simply go out of business. You can't expect a company to have to double the salary they are paying their employees and it not show up at the register.

    Sent from a device that supports the proposed 28th amendment
    Right, that's pretty much what I said, just pointing out that prices wouldn't double or triple if minimum wage did, they'd only go up by roughly the real operating costs that are offset by an action. So the cheeseburger example, assuming it's close to $8 now, would increase to maybe $10 or $11 with a 300% increase to minimum wage, rather than $21. I think we agree costs for everyone would go up, but it wouldn't be at the same rate as wages, but at the ratio of the actual increase to business expenses.

    XT1060. Through spacetime.
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