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    Default 9-11 Families Can Sue Saudi Arabia

    A federal court ruled that the families affected by 9-11 can sue Saudi Arabia for damages:



    Basically, the lawyers representing the families made a case that since Saudi Arabia was responsible for most of the funding of the activities that led up to 9-11, Saudi Arabia can be taken to court. I'm not familiar with people suing entire countries, so I'm not sure how this would work out. I've been hearing that if the families win in court, the US could seize Saudi assets held in America.
  2. #2  
    llamabreath's Avatar
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    Default Re: 9-11 Families Can Sue Saudi Arabia

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott7217 View Post
    A federal court ruled that the families affected by 9-11 can sue Saudi Arabia for damages:



    Basically, the lawyers representing the families made a case that since Saudi Arabia was responsible for most of the funding of the activities that led up to 9-11, Saudi Arabia can be taken to court. I'm not familiar with people suing entire countries, so I'm not sure how this would work out. I've been hearing that if the families win in court, the US could seize Saudi assets held in America.
    In all actuality, anyone can sue anybody for anything. Doesn't mean they'll win, or the other party isn't immune though.



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    Default Re: 9-11 Families Can Sue Saudi Arabia

    Quote Originally Posted by llamabreath View Post
    In all actuality, anyone can sue anybody for anything. Doesn't mean they'll win, or the other party isn't immune though.
    Oh, I agree that a win isn't guaranteed. I'm just curious what could happen. For example, would Saudi Arabia simply settle out of court with the families to avoid going to trial? If not, how much money would the families sue for, and how much would they actually get if they win? Is it a good idea for citizens from one country to sue the sovereign government of another country? Would the US need to defend itself in court in a similar fashion if, say, a family in Afghanistan sued the US military for an erroneous drone strike on innocent civilians? I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
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    Default Re: 9-11 Families Can Sue Saudi Arabia

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott7217 View Post
    Oh, I agree that a win isn't guaranteed. I'm just curious what could happen. For example, would Saudi Arabia simply settle out of court with the families to avoid going to trial? If not, how much money would the families sue for, and how much would they actually get if they win? Is it a good idea for citizens from one country to sue the sovereign government of another country? Would the US need to defend itself in court in a similar fashion if, say, a family in Afghanistan sued the US military for an erroneous drone strike on innocent civilians? I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
    All good questions, but i think moot. Even here in the U.S., for instance, i know that state agencies are immune from lawsuits from its own citizens, so....



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    Default Re: 9-11 Families Can Sue Saudi Arabia

    First off, are we talking about a citizen interest against the nation of Saudi Arabia, the country of Saudi Arabia, or the government of Saudi Arabia? Do the citizens here have a real means of bringing force of some kind to bear against whichever of these three things they might be interested in? What kind of force are we talking about?

    It sounds like an effort to just profiteer off the tragedy of 9/11 to me. If there ever was a country we should have been at war with over 9/11, it was Saudi Arabia. Unfortunately, that ship has already sailed.
  6. Thread Author  Thread Author    #6  

    Default Re: 9-11 Families Can Sue Saudi Arabia

    Quote Originally Posted by llamabreath View Post
    All good questions, but i think moot. Even here in the U.S., for instance, i know that state agencies are immune from lawsuits from its own citizens, so....
    A previous ruling determined that Saudi Arabia was immune. However, the later ruling reversed that decision, so the families can proceed with their lawsuits.
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    Default Re: 9-11 Families Can Sue Saudi Arabia

    Quote Originally Posted by llamabreath View Post
    In all actuality, anyone can sue anybody for anything. Doesn't mean they'll win, or the other party isn't immune though.



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    weren't there people suing the airlines over 9-11?
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    Default Re: 9-11 Families Can Sue Saudi Arabia

    Quote Originally Posted by likeag8 View Post
    weren't there people suing the airlines over 9-11?
    I'm pretty sure, yes.


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    Default Re: 9-11 Families Can Sue Saudi Arabia

    Quote Originally Posted by llamabreath View Post
    I'm pretty sure, yes.


    I think signatures are stupid.
    excuise me while i sue general motors because i got a speeding ticket in my pontiac. this is getting out of hand suing people.
  10. #10  
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    Default Re: 9-11 Families Can Sue Saudi Arabia

    Quote Originally Posted by likeag8 View Post
    excuise me while i sue general motors because i got a speeding ticket in my pontiac. this is getting out of hand suing people.
    Remember the woman who sued McDonald's for burning herself because her coffee was hot?

    lol



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  11. #11  

    Default Re: 9-11 Families Can Sue Saudi Arabia

    Quote Originally Posted by llamabreath View Post
    Remember the woman who sued McDonald's for burning herself because her coffee was hot?

    lol


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    When I first heard about this I thought just as you did, but then I spoke to someone that told me I should go read the entire transcript of the case and it made me rethink. Google "mcdonald's hot coffee lawsuit" and look at some of the photos. Seems a little excessive to me, but I also think the woman needed to exercise some personal responsibility.
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    Default Re: 9-11 Families Can Sue Saudi Arabia

    Quote Originally Posted by TXGTOU View Post
    When I first heard about this I thought just as you did, but then I spoke to someone that told me I should go read the entire transcript of the case and it made me rethink. Google "mcdonald's hot coffee lawsuit" and look at some of the photos. Seems a little excessive to me, but I also think the woman needed to exercise some personal responsibility.
    What is personal responsibility? It is much easier just to blame everyone else for your mistakes than it is to accept responsibility for one's actions.
    Posted on my Samsung Galaxy Note 3 on Verizon Wireless, America's largest 4G LTE Network. Please excuse any errors.
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    Default Re: 9-11 Families Can Sue Saudi Arabia

    Quote Originally Posted by JW4VZW View Post
    What is personal responsibility? It is much easier just to blame everyone else for your mistakes than it is to accept responsibility for one's actions.
    Posted on my Samsung Galaxy Note 3 on Verizon Wireless, America's largest 4G LTE Network. Please excuse any errors.
    It goes both ways in this case. Coffee so hot that it melts styrofoam cups and the woman for driving with a scalding liquid between her thighs, I'd say there is enough blame to go around. I say McDonalds should've been found guilty, as they were, but there is no way she deserved the settlement she received. I'm betting the jury was swayed by the extremely disturbing picture of her burns (google them at your own risk).

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    Default Re: 9-11 Families Can Sue Saudi Arabia

    Quote Originally Posted by TXGTOU View Post
    It goes both ways in this case. Coffee so hot that it melts styrofoam cups and the woman for driving with a scalding liquid between her thighs, I'd say there is enough blame to go around. I say McDonalds should've been found guilty, as they were, but there is no way she deserved the settlement she received. I'm betting the jury was swayed by the extremely disturbing picture of her burns (google them at your own risk).

    Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk 2
    I agree, the jury was probably swayed by the pictures. But come on, she knew that the coffee was going to be hot.
    Posted on my Samsung Galaxy Note 3 on Verizon Wireless, America's largest 4G LTE Network. Please excuse any errors.
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    Default Re: 9-11 Families Can Sue Saudi Arabia

    Quote Originally Posted by JW4VZW View Post
    I agree, the jury was probably swayed by the pictures. But come on, she knew that the coffee was going to be hot.
    Posted on my Samsung Galaxy Note 3 on Verizon Wireless, America's largest 4G LTE Network. Please excuse any errors.
    Like I said, I agree that both were negligent to some extent. If the lady had spilled a cold soda from McDonalds on herself then I can see no claim against McDonalds, but considering that McDonalds had a lot of complaints against it for its hot coffee, thus McDonalds should've been responsible for the person's medical expenses and a little more compensation for missed time at work, or if she was dismissed from her job because of the time she spent at the hospital. But the millions they awarded her, I don't think she should've received that much since she was partially responsible for what took place.
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    Default Re: 9-11 Families Can Sue Saudi Arabia

    Quote Originally Posted by TXGTOU View Post
    Like I said, I agree that both were negligent to some extent. If the lady had spilled a cold soda from McDonalds on herself then I can see no claim against McDonalds, but considering that McDonalds had a lot of complaints against it for its hot coffee, thus McDonalds should've been responsible for the person's medical expenses and a little more compensation for missed time at work, or if she was dismissed from her job because of the time she spent at the hospital. But the millions they awarded her, I don't think she should've received that much since she was partially responsible for what took place.
    I would sue if i took the time to buy coffee and it WASN'T hot.



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  17. #17  

    Default Re: 9-11 Families Can Sue Saudi Arabia

    Quote Originally Posted by llamabreath View Post
    I would sue if i took the time to buy coffee and it WASN'T hot.



    I think signatures are stupid.
    Would you sue if it was so hot that it melted through the Styrofoam and burned your man berries into raisins? I wonder what the money would be like if it did burn a younger woman or man and caused reproductive issues.
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    Default Re: 9-11 Families Can Sue Saudi Arabia

    Quote Originally Posted by TXGTOU View Post
    Would you sue if it was so hot that it melted through the Styrofoam and burned your man berries into raisins? I wonder what the money would be like if it did burn a younger woman or man and caused reproductive issues.
    Is that what happened?
    I didn't read up on it.



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  19. #19  

    Default Re: 9-11 Families Can Sue Saudi Arabia

    Quote Originally Posted by llamabreath View Post
    Is that what happened?
    I didn't read up on it.


    I think signatures are stupid.

    Google, "McDonalds hot coffee lawsuit images" and check the images (safe filter off I think), but be warned, you're going to find yourself face to face with an elderly woman's "yay-hoo" parts and some very disgusting looking burn marks.
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    Default Re: 9-11 Families Can Sue Saudi Arabia

    Quote Originally Posted by TXGTOU View Post
    Google, "McDonalds hot coffee lawsuit images" and check the images (safe filter off I think), but be warned, you're going to find yourself face to face with an elderly woman's "yay-hoo" parts and some very disgusting looking burn marks.
    LOL, I'll have to wait till I finish eating.



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  21. #21  
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    Default Re: 9-11 Families Can Sue Saudi Arabia

    Quote Originally Posted by llamabreath View Post
    I would sue if i took the time to buy coffee and it WASN'T hot.



    I think signatures are stupid.
    True. If it wasn't hot, she would have complained.
  22. #22  

    Default Re: 9-11 Families Can Sue Saudi Arabia

    IIRC, McDonald's regulates the temperature (or at least did) based on a calculation which says something to the effect that most coffees bought there are taken elsewhere (an office, for instance) and so they will fall by so-and-so many degrees at such-and-such a rate, therefore the initial serving temperature has to be so many degrees to offset that.

    Consequentially, coffee served at a McD's is pretty darned hot.

    But the question here which I believe to be truly relevant is: who made the choice to put the coffee between this woman's legs? Surely it is not, in any event, McDonald's (or any other such entity's) responsibility for the internals of a customer's vehicle (for example, having enough available cup holders or having them in a convenient location) or a customer's personal needs/preferences (for example, at what point to start drinking, or to set it some place to get a better grip on the cup, or to transition to holding onto some other item, i.e. a hamburger, etc. and so forth) so really... who's responsibility are we actually talking about here?

    It may be of interest to note that, in Germany, it is traditionally the case not to include cup holders in cars, the theory behind which being that the only thing you should be doing in a car is driving/riding from A to B. Now, that might be a bit extreme to those of us in/from America, but there it is, anyhow.
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    Default Re: 9-11 Families Can Sue Saudi Arabia

    Exactly.
    I think the real crime here is Driving While Distracted.



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    Default Re: 9-11 Families Can Sue Saudi Arabia

    Burn incident

    On February 27, 1992, Stella Liebeck, a 79-year-old woman from Albuquerque, New Mexico, ordered a 49-cent cup of coffee from the drive-through window of a local McDonald's restaurant located at 5001 Gibson Boulevard S.E. Liebeck was in the passenger's seat of her grandson's Ford Probe, which didn't have cup holders, and her grandson Chris parked the car so that Liebeck could add cream and sugar to her coffee. Liebeck placed the coffee cup between her knees and pulled the far side of the lid toward her to remove it. In the process, she spilled the entire cup of coffee on her lap.[9] Liebeck was wearing cotton sweatpants; they absorbed the coffee and held it against her skin, scalding her thighs, buttocks, and groin.[10]
    Liebeck was taken to the hospital, where it was determined that she had suffered third-degree burns on six percent of her skin and lesser burns over sixteen percent.[11] She remained in the hospital for eight days while she underwent skin grafting. During this period, Liebeck lost 20 pounds (9 kg, nearly 20% of her body weight), reducing her to 83 pounds (38 kg).[12] Two years of medical treatment followed.

    Pre-trial

    Liebeck sought to settle with McDonald's for $20,000 to cover her actual and anticipated expenses. Her past medical expenses were $10,500; her anticipated future medical expenses were approximately $2,500; and her loss of income was approximately $5,000 for a total of approximately $18,000.[13] Instead, the company offered only $800. When McDonald's refused to raise its offer, Liebeck retained Texas attorney Reed Morgan. Morgan filed suit in New Mexico District Court accusing McDonald's of "gross negligence" for selling coffee that was "unreasonably dangerous" and "defectively manufactured". McDonald's refused Morgan's offer to settle for $90,000. Morgan offered to settle for $300,000, and a mediator suggested $225,000 just before trial, but McDonald's refused these final pre-trial attempts to settle.[2]
    ...

    Verdict

    A twelve-person jury reached its verdict on August 18, 1994.[14] Applying the principles of comparative negligence, the jury found that McDonald's was 80% responsible for the incident and Liebeck was 20% at fault. Though there was a warning on the coffee cup, the jury decided that the warning was neither large enough nor sufficient. They awarded Liebeck US$200,000 in compensatory damages, which was then reduced by 20% to $160,000. In addition, they awarded her $2.7 million in punitive damages. The jurors apparently arrived at this figure from Morgan's suggestion to penalize McDonald's for one or two days' worth of coffee revenues, which were about $1.35 million per day.[2] The judge reduced punitive damages to $480,000, three times the compensatory amount, for a total of $640,000. The decision was appealed by both McDonald's and Liebeck in December 1994, but the parties settled out of court for an undisclosed amount less than $600,000.[16]

    Summary

    Car wasn't moving, car didn't have cup holders, woman was in the passenger seat, coffee destroyed her skin, she asked for $20k, Mc Donald's offered $800, blah blah, negotiations, most she ever asked for was $300k, Jury went nuts (my opinion) and awarded just under $3 mm, appeal, Jury is dumb (same opinion and basically what the appellate court, plaintiff and defense all said), they settled for $600k. McDonald's paid 30x what they could have if they'd have taken her seriously up front, prior to their attorney fees, etc.

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    Default Re: 9-11 Families Can Sue Saudi Arabia

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingIsTrue View Post
    Burn incident

    On February 27, 1992, Stella Liebeck, a 79-year-old woman from Albuquerque, New Mexico, ordered a 49-cent cup of coffee from the drive-through window of a local McDonald's restaurant located at 5001 Gibson Boulevard S.E. Liebeck was in the passenger's seat of her grandson's Ford Probe, which didn't have cup holders, and her grandson Chris parked the car so that Liebeck could add cream and sugar to her coffee. Liebeck placed the coffee cup between her knees and pulled the far side of the lid toward her to remove it. In the process, she spilled the entire cup of coffee on her lap.[9] Liebeck was wearing cotton sweatpants; they absorbed the coffee and held it against her skin, scalding her thighs, buttocks, and groin.[10]
    Liebeck was taken to the hospital, where it was determined that she had suffered third-degree burns on six percent of her skin and lesser burns over sixteen percent.[11] She remained in the hospital for eight days while she underwent skin grafting. During this period, Liebeck lost 20 pounds (9 kg, nearly 20% of her body weight), reducing her to 83 pounds (38 kg).[12] Two years of medical treatment followed.

    Pre-trial

    Liebeck sought to settle with McDonald's for $20,000 to cover her actual and anticipated expenses. Her past medical expenses were $10,500; her anticipated future medical expenses were approximately $2,500; and her loss of income was approximately $5,000 for a total of approximately $18,000.[13] Instead, the company offered only $800. When McDonald's refused to raise its offer, Liebeck retained Texas attorney Reed Morgan. Morgan filed suit in New Mexico District Court accusing McDonald's of "gross negligence" for selling coffee that was "unreasonably dangerous" and "defectively manufactured". McDonald's refused Morgan's offer to settle for $90,000. Morgan offered to settle for $300,000, and a mediator suggested $225,000 just before trial, but McDonald's refused these final pre-trial attempts to settle.[2]
    ...

    Verdict

    A twelve-person jury reached its verdict on August 18, 1994.[14] Applying the principles of comparative negligence, the jury found that McDonald's was 80% responsible for the incident and Liebeck was 20% at fault. Though there was a warning on the coffee cup, the jury decided that the warning was neither large enough nor sufficient. They awarded Liebeck US$200,000 in compensatory damages, which was then reduced by 20% to $160,000. In addition, they awarded her $2.7 million in punitive damages. The jurors apparently arrived at this figure from Morgan's suggestion to penalize McDonald's for one or two days' worth of coffee revenues, which were about $1.35 million per day.[2] The judge reduced punitive damages to $480,000, three times the compensatory amount, for a total of $640,000. The decision was appealed by both McDonald's and Liebeck in December 1994, but the parties settled out of court for an undisclosed amount less than $600,000.[16]

    Summary

    Car wasn't moving, car didn't have cup holders, woman was in the passenger seat, coffee destroyed her skin, she asked for $20k, Mc Donald's offered $800, blah blah, negotiations, most she ever asked for was $300k, Jury went nuts (my opinion) and awarded just under $3 mm, appeal, Jury is dumb (same opinion and basically what the appellate court, plaintiff and defense all said), they settled for $600k. McDonald's paid 30x what they could have if they'd have taken her seriously up front, prior to their attorney fees, etc.
    Thanks for the clarification.
    I was too lazy to do the research. :o



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