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    NoYankees44's Avatar

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    Default Right to Work and Unions

    Ok General discussion time. "Right-To-Work" laws and Unions in general.



    Right to Work and Unions-800px-right_to_work_states.svg.png

    21 states have them in some form. Mostly southern and western. These laws generally prevent the requirement for unions to require membership of employees or non-union members to pay fees regardless of collective bargaining.

    My specific reason for looking into these laws in more detail is because the VW plant in Chattanooga, TN is currently in talks with the UAW. News reports and interviews with the UAW are saying that it is a for sure thing. My contacts within the facility say otherwise, but that is a different matter.

    But anyway, it got me thinking about right to work laws and unions in general(TN is a RTW state). Thought I would open up the discussion here and see where it leads.
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    Default Re: Right to Work and Unions

    I can't complain about the Carpenters Union. It afforded my husband a decent pension after 30 years, we always had health, dental and vision and life insurance, even when he was laid off. He had an annuity and was paid a decent living wage and knew that everyone was in an even playing field. We are a union family and have no complaints.

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    Default Re: Right to Work and Unions

    UPS had to bail the teamsters out to the tune of $6 Billion dollars in 2012. We saw what the Unions were doing in Wisconsin, couldn't help but to see it because of the news. Let me not get started on the Illinois Teachers union. Members of the Machinist Union in South Carolina voted the Machinist Union out of Boeing's South Carolina assembly plant in 2011. We also saw what the Bakers Union done to a name brand, but came back non union because of another company buying it. Most Municipal employees are union and you can see what was done to some cities, for example, Detroit, Stockton, Ca., and quite a few other major cities and some states.
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  4. #4  

    Default Re: Right to Work and Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by kg4icg View Post
    UPS had to bail the teamsters out to the tune of $6 Billion dollars in 2012. We saw what the Unions were doing in Wisconsin, couldn't help but to see it because of the news. Let me not get started on the Illinois Teachers union. Members of the Machinist Union in South Carolina voted the Machinist Union out of Boeing's South Carolina assembly plant in 2011. We also saw what the Bakers Union done to a name brand, but came back non union because of another company buying it. Most Municipal employees are union and you can see what was done to some cities, for example, Detroit, Stockton, Ca., and quite a few other major cities and some states.
    People keep blaming the unions. But I have found far to often if you really look into it that it was the city that screwed up by not funding the pensions year after year. Then OMG payment comes due and because you have not properly funding the account for years it is well massive budget problems.
    There is a reason why teachers in Texas are refusing to let teacher retirement go into the state general funds as they do not trust the idiots that are elected not to use that money for other things then cut the benefits because OMG no money.
    Until proven otherwise the so called "Google Update Alliances" is dead and was just empty promises and words. One has to look no father than the pathetic and slow update process of ICS on all the manufactures and carriers. We should all be asking the question about updates and the so called Update Alliances ever chance we get.
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    Default Re: Right to Work and Unions

    I am a blue collar, working class, union electrician and I am proudly represented by the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, Local 134, Chicago, Illinois.

    First off, lets talk about right to work laws. What right to work laws do is they give employees of a unionized shop the right to reject the democratic process voted in by the majority of employees. They need not pay union dues nor follow any contract rules voted in by the majority of the employees. When you think about it, it's no different than writing a law that allows people to reject a democratically elected representative (city council, congressman...etc...) and not follow any laws or taxes backed by the majority of the people. Right to work laws are simply antidemocratic.

    Why do employees vote in favor of union representation? It's real simple, they aren't being listen to. Case in point, the Hawthorne Study. Back in 1924 a study was done at a Western Electric factory to see what could be done to increase worker productivity. So they formed employee feedback groups. They started with lighting, brighter lighting, then lower lighting. Then they went on and tried different break schedules, lunch schedules, shortening the work schedule...etc,,, What they discovered was, no matter what they did, it increased productivity. After 8 years of experiments, they saw the light and were able to concluded that employee involvement (being listen to) is what works to increase productivity.

    I have known many different union organizer throughout my life, from many different unions. One thing they always tell me is, if a company tries to fight the union, they know they'll win, but if the company fights and corrects the issues causing the employees to want union representation, they'll lose. It that simple. Now, if the VW plant is smart and forms employee feedback groups and listens to their employees and takes corrective action, the union won't be voted in, but if they decide to try any fight the union head on, they'll lose.
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    NoYankees44's Avatar

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    Default Re: Right to Work and Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Timelessblur View Post
    People keep blaming the unions. But I have found far to often if you really look into it that it was the city that screwed up by not funding the pensions year after year. Then OMG payment comes due and because you have not properly funding the account for years it is well massive budget problems.
    There is a reason why teachers in Texas are refusing to let teacher retirement go into the state general funds as they do not trust the idiots that are elected not to use that money for other things then cut the benefits because OMG no money.
    Pension plans are just not sustainable after a point. Unless a company continues to grow exponentially, they will eventually hit a point that there are too many in the program. The company I work for just stopped offering the pension for those not already invested and replaced it with a much higher 401k match option. I prefer it this way anyway.

    Honestly no one should ever count on pension or social security for the base of their retirement. That is putting your fate in someone else's hands. The company could go under or the government could strip ss at any time.
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  7. #7  

    Default Re: Right to Work and Unions

    The term "right to work" was brought to you by the same people that came up with the phrase, "Patriot Act", "Death Tax", "Advanced Interrogation", and other phrases that have been tweaked to hide their real meaning. I've heard many people refer to it as the "right to get fired" law. I'm willing to bet that most of the states in that map that are right to work are also near the bottom in education, medically covered, and poverty, and it's no coincidence.

    While I've seen some of the worst unions have to offer (I once knew a guy that assaulted his supervisor, sat in his car after he was fired, possibly contemplating violence, and then being rehired), I can walk into most Walmart stores and see the worst a union-less corporate America has to offer. I honestly believe there is some equilibrium that can be reached, but that equilibrium may take some sort of unionization of some type.....
  8. #8  

    Default Re: Right to Work and Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by NoYankees44 View Post
    Pension plans are just not sustainable after a point. Unless a company continues to grow exponentially, they will eventually hit a point that there are too many in the program. The company I work for just stopped offering the pension for those not already invested and replaced it with a much higher 401k match option. I prefer it this way anyway.

    Honestly no one should ever count on pension or social security for the base of their retirement. That is putting your fate in someone else's hands. The company could go under or the government could strip ss at any time.
    I disagree. There was a study done at one of the General Motors plants that I worked at. They figured out how much of the car's cost at that particular plant went to pay for employee retirements and retiree benefits. I think it amounted to about $1,500-$2,000 per car. Now while I know that's not exactly chump change, once General Motors has spit out their employee, that employee typically has to limp out of the building with almost as much wear and tear on their body as the average NFL retiree.
  9. #9  

    Default Re: Right to Work and Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by NoYankees44 View Post
    Pension plans are just not sustainable after a point. Unless a company continues to grow exponentially, they will eventually hit a point that there are too many in the program. The company I work for just stopped offering the pension for those not already invested and replaced it with a much higher 401k match option. I prefer it this way anyway.

    Honestly no one should ever count on pension or social security for the base of their retirement. That is putting your fate in someone else's hands. The company could go under or the government could strip ss at any time.
    no even then a pension is sustainable. This issue is you have to fund it and grow the account. The differences between a 401k and a pensions is the liability. Pension the liability is on the company 401k it is on you. Assuming you invest the pension money the account should grow like a 401k and long term should work out. Problem is if you do not put that money in as the companies were doing then you run into problems as payments come do because guess what you did not put the money aside to grow. It is as simple as that.

    There is a reason Texas Teacher retirement is consider in good health. It been popularly funded and the state has not been able to raid the account to fund other stuff. AKA it is money that being set aside year after year to pay for retirement of teachers. State wants to raid the account because their is a lot of money just sitting there. Problem is if you raid it then yeah you have a stability problem because you did not invest the money.

    Short answer is companies not funding the pensions saw hmm I can claim an this much extra profit this year by not putting money aside this boost stocks. Now 10-15 years later they now have the retirement to pay out. Problem is that is 10-15 years of interested that they did not gain and pretty much for the short term profit they now have to pay tons of extra money.

    AKA no one was properly funding the pensions accounts.
    Until proven otherwise the so called "Google Update Alliances" is dead and was just empty promises and words. One has to look no father than the pathetic and slow update process of ICS on all the manufactures and carriers. We should all be asking the question about updates and the so called Update Alliances ever chance we get.
  10. #10  

    Default Re: Right to Work and Unions

    I view it like this.
    Even though sometimes unions can be a pain in the arse, its easier to negotiate with 1 body rather then let's say tens of thousands of employees separately.

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  11. #11  

    Default Re: Right to Work and Unions

    I'm anti "big" union, like the Teamsters. I don't want some outside group like that, that has nothing to do with said company, coming into a place I work and forcing me to abide by their demands. I'm kinda ok if a company's own employees make their own small union of sorts, not tied to any national group. I know they once served a purpose, but the big unions today have become too greedy and corrupt in my view, effectively pricing many workers out of a job. Or the many stories of good employees negatively effected while bad ones are treated well. Case I point, my dad was not part of the union where he worked, but the union contract said layoffs due to low customer orders were based on seniority. So while he was a productive worker, he was laid off once while many lazy workers kept their job because he was the new guy. How is that fair? If not for the union, layoffs would have likely been on a reasonable quality of worker basis.

    And in non right to work states, if all the good paying carers are unionized, where does that leave people like me that want nothing to do with the union? Should I go find some low paying job I can barely live on? Personally, if I owned a shop, let them sign all the contracts they want. I wouldn't sign on to accept it. The unions don't have much power, other than to built their way in and threaten with lawsuits. I'd close down a company before letting one into it, but I'd also treat my employees well enough that a union isn't needed.

    As for the free rider idea, where a worker can elect not to join a union but still benefit from negotiations, what if the non-union employees had a separate job package? Such as pay scale, benefits, time off, etc that was not part of the union contract? I know that would never happen, but just a thought anyway.
  12. #12  

    Default Re: Right to Work and Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    I'm anti "big" union, like the Teamsters. I don't want some outside group like that, that has nothing to do with said company, coming into a place I work and forcing me to abide by their demands. I'm kinda ok if a company's own employees make their own small union of sorts, not tied to any national group. I know they once served a purpose, but the big unions today have become too greedy and corrupt in my view, effectively pricing many workers out of a job. Or the many stories of good employees negatively effected while bad ones are treated well. Case I point, my dad was not part of the union where he worked, but the union contract said layoffs due to low customer orders were based on seniority. So while he was a productive worker, he was laid off once while many lazy workers kept their job because he was the new guy. How is that fair? If not for the union, layoffs would have likely been on a reasonable quality of worker basis.

    And in non right to work states, if all the good paying carers are unionized, where does that leave people like me that want nothing to do with the union? Should I go find some low paying job I can barely live on? Personally, if I owned a shop, let them sign all the contracts they want. I wouldn't sign on to accept it. The unions don't have much power, other than to built their way in and threaten with lawsuits. I'd close down a company before letting one into it, but I'd also treat my employees well enough that a union isn't needed.

    As for the free rider idea, where a worker can elect not to join a union but still benefit from negotiations, what if the non-union employees had a separate job package? Such as pay scale, benefits, time off, etc that was not part of the union contract? I know that would never happen, but just a thought anyway.
    That's not how unions work. That's how you think unions work, but that's now how they work. The international simply sets up what they call category 1 language, which are basic contract outlines and rules to follow for equity. All category 1 language has to be approved by the NLRB (national labor relation board). Think of category 1 language as a constitution. Everything else is done at the local level.Think of it as states rights.

    You bring up seniority, my local got rid of seniority years ago due to the reason you stated, but even with a seniority a company has every right to set up measurable productivity standards for workers, and if they aren't measuring up to the productivity standard, they can be laid off. I am glad we got rid of seniority, because I was getting real sick and tired of contractors complaining about it without a valid argument. We also signed a no strike clause, any issues that are unresolved at contract negotiations go to binding arbitration.

    This will throw you for a loop. Republicans were Pro union not that long ago
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Right to Work and Unions-prounion.png  
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  13. #13  

    Default Re: Right to Work and Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    I'm anti "big" union, like the Teamsters. I don't want some outside group like that, that has nothing to do with said company, coming into a place I work and forcing me to abide by their demands. I'm kinda ok if a company's own employees make their own small union of sorts, not tied to any national group. I know they once served a purpose, but the big unions today have become too greedy and corrupt in my view, effectively pricing many workers out of a job. Or the many stories of good employees negatively effected while bad ones are treated well. Case I point, my dad was not part of the union where he worked, but the union contract said layoffs due to low customer orders were based on seniority. So while he was a productive worker, he was laid off once while many lazy workers kept their job because he was the new guy. How is that fair? If not for the union, layoffs would have likely been on a reasonable quality of worker basis.

    And in non right to work states, if all the good paying carers are unionized, where does that leave people like me that want nothing to do with the union? Should I go find some low paying job I can barely live on? Personally, if I owned a shop, let them sign all the contracts they want. I wouldn't sign on to accept it. The unions don't have much power, other than to built their way in and threaten with lawsuits. I'd close down a company before letting one into it, but I'd also treat my employees well enough that a union isn't needed.

    As for the free rider idea, where a worker can elect not to join a union but still benefit from negotiations, what if the non-union employees had a separate job package? Such as pay scale, benefits, time off, etc that was not part of the union contract? I know that would never happen, but just a thought anyway.
    That kind of logic made me laugh. So you'd rather not be part of a high paying union job but don't want to take a low paying job? Exactly how do you think the high paying job became a high paying job? If not for the union negotiating then that job would most likely be a low paying job as well.

    I personally don't believe that a person should benefit from union negotiations if they're not part of the union. And this is why. When I worked at General Motors, I worked in what was known as the "pit". It was a 5 foot trench where we would work on cars as they went by over our heads on an assembly line. The pit was wired so we could connect fans, lighting for us to do our jobs, and other electrical outlets and cords tucked away on the floor. One day we had some nasty rainfall that soaked into the plant. We had about 1/4th an inch of water that started to pool at our feet. On each side of us, we also had extension cords and exposed electric wiring. Once our union leadership found out about the water, they stopped the line and had us get out of the pit. Management wanted us to continue to work but the union insisted that we stay out of that area. We had one guy that was somewhat of a pompous dillhole that wasn't part of the union. When management told him to go into the pit, he went in, mostly because he was at their mercy. Since he went in, we didn't really have a choice but to go in as well because even though he wasn't in our union, he was still a co-worker. The fact that he wasn't union made the whole union weaker.

    Now, as I've stated before, I've seen the ugly side of unions, but if that GM assembly plant was not unionized, do you think for one minute that management would've repaired that leak with such haste if it wasn't a unionized plant?
  14. #14  

    Default Re: Right to Work and Unions

    Oh and here's another anecdote for those that think unions are driving up all the costs. With GM having gone through bankruptcy a few years ago, one of the concessions at the local GM facility is to lower the pay rate of new hires and not give them benefits until after 5 years of service. The pay rate has gone down from about $23 an hour to $15 an hour. I'm sure a lot of people are thinking that GM is going to realize a lot of savings from the drop in employment, but the last I've heard is that GM is having trouble keeping people. After a few months people are quitting in high numbers. So that means having to spend more money on training people for the same jobs. That also means that since there is less an incentive to do good work (and no healthcare to cover you if you get hurt), quality is most likely going to go down. I wouldn't be surprised if in a few years you hear about GM quality going down across the board, even if they're looking good financially for now.
  15. #15  

    Default Re: Right to Work and Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by TXGTOU View Post
    That kind of logic made me laugh. So you'd rather not be part of a high paying union job but don't want to take a low paying job? Exactly how do you think the high paying job became a high paying job? If not for the union negotiating then that job would most likely be a low paying job as well.
    Exactly. I want to go in and negotiate one on one with an employer in a skilled job and work to be compensated what I'm worth, not have an arbitrary compensation placed on me without my input. It makes as much sense as the government trying to say a job flipping burgers is worth $10/hr with the minimum wage proposals.

    I personally don't believe that a person should benefit from union negotiations if they're not part of the union.
    I can agree to that belief.

    When I worked at General Motors, I worked in what was known as the "pit". It was a 5 foot trench where we would work on cars as they went by over our heads on an assembly line. The pit was wired so we could connect fans, lighting for us to do our jobs, and other electrical outlets and cords tucked away on the floor. One day we had some nasty rainfall that soaked into the plant. We had about 1/4th an inch of water that started to pool at our feet. On each side of us, we also had extension cords and exposed electric wiring. Once our union leadership found out about the water, they stopped the line and had us get out of the pit. Management wanted us to continue to work but the union insisted that we stay out of that area. We had one guy that was somewhat of a pompous dillhole that wasn't part of the union. When management told him to go into the pit, he went in, mostly because he was at their mercy. Since he went in, we didn't really have a choice but to go in as well because even though he wasn't in our union, he was still a co-worker. The fact that he wasn't union made the whole union weaker.
    Sounds like your group needed to grow a pair. If it's unsafe, I don't need some organization to give me the ok to remove myself from danger. I just do it myself. If the factory won't remedy it, then I contact OSHA if need be (and they have been cracking down on wrongful terminations for this sort of stuff). That non-union worker should have told the company no and stood up for himself. Whether or not he was in the union had nothing to do with his choice to keep himself safe. And the union workers also should have stood up for themselves and refused to go back in. Just because that one guy was weak minded and probably an ***** for going back in doesn't give anyone else an excuse to be the same.

    Now, as I've stated before, I've seen the ugly side of unions, but if that GM assembly plant was not unionized, do you think for one minute that management would've repaired that leak with such haste if it wasn't a unionized plant?
    If the workers actually stood up for themselves and refused to work in those conditions instead of running to the union "mommy," then yes.
  16. #16  

    Default Re: Right to Work and Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    This will throw you for a loop. Republicans were Pro union not that long ago
    I'm not Republican, so....? Besides, the two main parties are known to change over time. That really shouldn't surprise anyone that part of the Republican party was once for unions. Notice how that poster was just the Young Republicans and not identifying as the whole party? I'm sure there's Republicans today that support unions and Democrats that don't.
  17. #17  

    Default Re: Right to Work and Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    Exactly. I want to go in and negotiate one on one with an employer in a skilled job and work to be compensated what I'm worth, not have an arbitrary compensation placed on me without my input. It makes as much sense as the government trying to say a job flipping burgers is worth $10/hr with the minimum wage proposals.
    Do you really think you could get a better pay rate? That is cute if you believe that. If you look at many work place polices like do not talk about wages it is keep pay down. It is to surpress the pay. You might get one person who pulls something off but most of the time nope. You get favorites but nothing based on any real work.
    You hold zero cards. The upper management holds all of the cards. Unions puts some cards in the employees hands.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    Sounds like your group needed to grow a pair. If it's unsafe, I don't need some organization to give me the ok to remove myself from danger. I just do it myself. If the factory won't remedy it, then I contact OSHA if need be (and they have been cracking down on wrongful terminations for this sort of stuff). That non-union worker should have told the company no and stood up for himself. Whether or not he was in the union had nothing to do with his choice to keep himself safe. And the union workers also should have stood up for themselves and refused to go back in. Just because that one guy was weak minded and probably an ***** for going back in doesn't give anyone else an excuse to be the same.



    If the workers actually stood up for themselves and refused to work in those conditions instead of running to the union "mommy," then yes.

    Oh woy you really believe this crap.
    The threat of you are going to lose your job and be fired will make several people break. It only takes a few people to break and then all hell breaks lose.
    The company can stone wall OSHA. If not one gets shocked they can cover everything up before OSHA gets there and can easily force OSHA to get warrants. OSHA does not have the right to walk onto any job site with out permission. They can get warrants for it. Some companies give in and let OSHA on because they know if they force OSHA to get the warrants they will not let any little thing slide. It will be fines for every little volations instead of a quick inspection and say fix this this and this...

    Union in this case shut it down for worker safety.

    Remember Right to WOrk is not Right to Work.
    It real name should be Right for Employers to screw over employees. RtW is just a pretty name but it is anything BUT right to work. It puts all the power in the hands of management and no power in the hands of the workers.
    Until proven otherwise the so called "Google Update Alliances" is dead and was just empty promises and words. One has to look no father than the pathetic and slow update process of ICS on all the manufactures and carriers. We should all be asking the question about updates and the so called Update Alliances ever chance we get.
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  18. #18  

    Default Re: Right to Work and Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    Exactly. I want to go in and negotiate one on one with an employer in a skilled job and work to be compensated what I'm worth, not have an arbitrary compensation placed on me without my input. It makes as much sense as the government trying to say a job flipping burgers is worth $10/hr with the minimum wage proposals.
    I highly doubt that you could negotiate a higher amount than what a union can. If you could then there would be no need for unions. I think you're giving corporations too much credit. I work in the IT industry and it's not too uncommon for managers to have IT professionals underpaid because there's always some new college graduate saddled with thousands of dollars in debt willing to do jobs for pennies on the dollar just so they can afford to pay their bills.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    Sounds like your group needed to grow a pair. If it's unsafe, I don't need some organization to give me the ok to remove myself from danger. I just do it myself. If the factory won't remedy it, then I contact OSHA if need be (and they have been cracking down on wrongful terminations for this sort of stuff). That non-union worker should have told the company no and stood up for himself. Whether or not he was in the union had nothing to do with his choice to keep himself safe. And the union workers also should have stood up for themselves and refused to go back in. Just because that one guy was weak minded and probably an ***** for going back in doesn't give anyone else an excuse to be the same.
    Umm, do you think OSHA would've been created without union influence? I'm guessing you also think the 5 day work week just magically appeared as well? A lot of the benefits most workers take for granted now are a direct result of unions, but companies would rather fill peoples' heads with all the negative aspects of unions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    If the workers actually stood up for themselves and refused to work in those conditions instead of running to the union "mommy," then yes.
    Wrong, the company would just fire everyone and bring in a new group of workers.
  19. #19  

    Default Re: Right to Work and Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Timelessblur View Post
    Do you really think you could get a better pay rate? That is cute if you believe that. If you look at many work place polices like do not talk about wages it is keep pay down. It is to surpress the pay. You might get one person who pulls something off but most of the time nope. You get favorites but nothing based on any real work.
    You hold zero cards. The upper management holds all of the cards. Unions puts some cards in the employees hands.
    I've done well in proving my value to my non-union employer and receive some nice bonuses and wages. Perhaps instead of complaining about low wages, more people should work to prove that they are worth more. The whole thing about not talking about wages is to prevent gossip and lowering morale. People would fuss about not getting paid as much as someone else, while ignoring or discounting what that other person is doing to earn the extra.


    Union in this case shut it down for worker safety.

    Remember Right to WOrk is not Right to Work.
    It real name should be Right for Employers to screw over employees. RtW is just a pretty name but it is anything BUT right to work. It puts all the power in the hands of management and no power in the hands of the workers.
    In the above example, the union workers also went back in when it was unsafe. But with how you put it, I'm guessing you feel you can't be safe without the union telling you it's dangerous to work in that condition?

    And if you think that way about the re-wording of right to work, shall we re-name the opposite as "Removed rights for workers to stand up for themselves" states? The individual worker has less power because he has to abide by union rules, even if they are not what he agrees with, and has to go to the union now for problems instead of talking directly with management.
  20. #20  

    Default Re: Right to Work and Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by TXGTOU View Post
    I highly doubt that you could negotiate a higher amount than what a union can. If you could then there would be no need for unions. I think you're giving corporations too much credit. I work in the IT industry and it's not too uncommon for managers to have IT professionals underpaid because there's always some new college graduate saddled with thousands of dollars in debt willing to do jobs for pennies on the dollar just so they can afford to pay their bills.
    Read what I said again. To be paid what I'm worth. That has nothing to do with being paid more or less than a union worker. :rolleyes:



    Umm, do you think OSHA would've been created without union influence? I'm guessing you also think the 5 day work week just magically appeared as well? A lot of the benefits most workers take for granted now are a direct result of unions, but companies would rather fill peoples' heads with all the negative aspects of unions.
    I said in my first post in this thread that I understand unions once served a purpose, but now the big industry wide unions have become just as greedy as the big corporations everyone complains about.



    Wrong, the company would just fire everyone and bring in a new group of workers.
    1. I wouldn't want to work for a company that treats their employees as an expendable commodity. 2. That would be a societal problem if people are willing to work in those conditions, not corporate greed.
  21. #21  

    Default Re: Right to Work and Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    I've done well in proving my value to my non-union employer and receive some nice bonuses and wages. Perhaps instead of complaining about low wages, more people should work to prove that they are worth more.
    I guess I'm a little confused then, you said that you CAN'T get a good paying skill job because you don't care for unions. So are these union jobs more desirable than your job, and if they are, does that mean that while you may do a good job at lobbying for more money, the unions do a better job? "Can't get a good paying skills job" to me infers that you would like to have a high paying job, but can't because of the unions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    The whole thing about not talking about wages is to prevent gossip and lowering morale. People would fuss about not getting paid as much as someone else, while ignoring or discounting what that other person is doing to earn the extra.
    If they are ignoring or discounting what the other person is doing to command more money then it's up to management to say, "well Bob, Harry's productivity is ____ greater than yours, thus he is paid ____ more than you."

    When I was in High School I worked for a Wally world super center as a cashier (it was actually one of the Prototypes for their big super centers). Every so often I was pulled from my cashier position to go retrieve carts from the parking lot. I suspect that I was paid LESS than many of my counter parts that were NEVER asked to go out and pull carts in 100+ degree weather. I was also always near the top as far as checkout speeds and accuracy went. Management would rather promote people they like, people that kiss up a little, and people that they feel they can hang out with over people that are more productive. The reason for the secrecy is because management doesn't know how to manage.

    My last job in IT is a perfect example. The inept manager liked it when people would kiss up to him. The type of person that worked for him was generally a yes man. While I was there I found myself constantly cleaning up after some of the techs that were high on his list. I would say that his department will most likely fall under its own weight eventually, but he works for a major medical center and they have no problem throwing large amounts of money around. Last summer his team's incompetence was responsible for about 3,000 computers going down, and this happened AFTER a database error caused several thousand patient records to crash one of their systems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    Read what I said again. To be paid what I'm worth. That has nothing to do with being paid more or less than a union worker. :rolleyes:
    Like I said, you say you couldn't get a "high paying job" because of the unions. So either you believe that you're worth one of those high paying jobs, or you'd be perfectly fine getting paid LESS, but not the amount of the other low paying jobs that you said are the only other jobs available.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    1. I wouldn't want to work for a company that treats their employees as an expendable commodity.
    Does that mean that you're not working now?
  22. #22  

    Default Re: Right to Work and Unions

    You're reading way too much into what I'm saying. I'm currently well employed in a non union job. Does it pay as well as a union one? No. Am I paid what I'm worth? Yes. If I wasn't, I'd change that either through advancement or moving to a better company.(or maybe start my own). I have a great relationship with my supervisors, they treat me well, I can go them with any problem, but I also don't put up with crap. Now some people may think I'm just buddy buddy with them, but they don't see what goes on behind the scene. How I help out where I can even if it's not part of my job description, the training I do off site with others, etc. It's not an overnight thing, but takes time to build that kind of working relationships.

    If you want to join a union, go for it. I honestly don't care, so long as I'm not pressured to join against my will. It's really not that hard to advance with a good work ethic, willingness to expand your mindset, and such without relying on an outside group to tell you what you can do.
  23. #23  
    xchange's Avatar

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    Default Re: Right to Work and Unions

    Unions were created for the sole purpose of giving non unionized workers practice at imitating crabs in a bucket
    The complacency about security among android users is disturbing.
  24. #24  

    Default Re: Right to Work and Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    You're reading way too much into what I'm saying. I'm currently well employed in a non union job. Does it pay as well as a union one? No. Am I paid what I'm worth? Yes. If I wasn't, I'd change that either through advancement or moving to a better company.(or maybe start my own). I have a great relationship with my supervisors, they treat me well, I can go them with any problem, but I also don't put up with crap. Now some people may think I'm just buddy buddy with them, but they don't see what goes on behind the scene. How I help out where I can even if it's not part of my job description, the training I do off site with others, etc. It's not an overnight thing, but takes time to build that kind of working relationships.

    If you want to join a union, go for it. I honestly don't care, so long as I'm not pressured to join against my will. It's really not that hard to advance with a good work ethic, willingness to expand your mindset, and such without relying on an outside group to tell you what you can do.
    It's fine that you have a good relationship with your employer and that your employer treats you fair. That's not as common as it should be though. A good manager puts the company ahead of their own ego. Unfortunately, some managers can not make that distinction, especially lower level managers. The term "Office Politics" wouldn't be so prevalent if managers managed employees based on performance and not "I think Steve is a great employee, but after hours I'd rather have a beer with Sal". Sadly, you sometimes have the wrong slimy individuals make it up the corporate ladder because they have no problem gaming what seems like a broken system.
  25. #25  

    Default Re: Right to Work and Unions

    I'm a Libertarian, so I believe in an employer's ability to hire and terminate employees with or without cause.

    I believe in my right as an employee to negotiate what I believe to be a fair value for my labor.

    However, the egregious examples most trot out regarding Union behavior are outliers. And it's not their fault that their employers or government can't live up to the deals they made.

    That said, just because the folks that came in during the good times got a paid pension doesn't mean that the new folks shouldn't get 401k or 403b instead.

    Some of Illinois's $100 billion pension issue can be alleviated simply by not repeating the mistakes of the past. And, of course, making their frickin' payments.

    --
    Somebody, somewhere, right now is stuffing Twinkies in their shorts.
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