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  1. Thread Author  Thread Author    #1  

    Default alarming figures

    Worth a read;


    There was a follow up study of small children in schools learning gun safety... they then planted 2 guns with ammo in the room. The children pointed the guns into their faces etc for a few minutes pulling the trigger before remembering the lesson they were just taught.

    - Android Central App. N'oublions jamais l'Australie, Villers-Bretonneux.
    Tom Fairclough
    Credo faber est quisque fortunae suae
    I believe every man is the artisan of his own fortune
  2. #2  

    Default Re: alarming figures

    Have a link to that follow-up study? I'm curious what ages those kids were and the findings of the study.

    For the article you linked to, I'd like to see a more broken down list of incidents by age, stepped year by year instead of grouping them. With that massive spike in the 15-19 range, is that heavily weighed to one or two years? A curve? Evenly spread out?

    In children less than 15, almost two-thirds were due to accidents.
    What's interesting about this quote from the article is that the incident rates of those ages is so small that it doesn't take much to make such a claim for any of the reasons. While it's probably factually true, I think statistically it's irrelevant. It's like saying two out of three people like apples, but only surveying 3 people. It would take a relatively small increase in one of the other categories to give it the same claim. Or a drop in the accident one. Also consider at those young ages, especially the very young, kids aren't typically thinking of assault and suicide. So it's no surprise that *if* something happens that injures a small kid that has a gun, chances are it'll be accidental.

    It also only addresses the reasons for injuries and deaths that happen. It'd be interesting to compare those rates to kids with guns in the home that haven't had any incidents involving them.
  3. #3  

    Default Re: alarming figures

    I bet the rate of kids in homes with guns who never get injured is much higher than the rate that do. I have multiple firearms and all are locked, my hand guns are in a biometric safe that only I or my wife can get in. My 6yr old has asked to see my guns but I have repeatedly told him they aren't toys and he will have to wait till he's older. This study is like saying the rate of kids hospitalized with dog bites is higher in families with dogs. No ****? So the answer is don't have a dog and don't let your kid play with other kids who have dogs.
  4. Thread Author  Thread Author    #4  

    Default Re: alarming figures

    The full study can be found here () for those not on a mobile the article link is ().

    Steve that is like saying I bet the houses without drownings in their pool is greater then the pools with drownings. I think the main issue is that guns are often laying around the house, sometimes unused for years and when a child finds it catastrophe can occur. Even with a gun safe they can be opened by a child, here is an article of 3 year old opening one (). As for your dog example, similar to how some owners store their guns a very secure safe I would make sure there is supervision when a child is around a dog, take precautions e.g. not invite other children over if your dog has been gaurd dog trained unless you are home.

    Mooncatt in the method it states "We used the 2009 Kids Inpatient Database to identify hospitalizations from firearm-related injuries in young people <20 years of age; International Classification of Diseases, Ninth Revision, Clinical Modification, and external-cause-of injury codes were used to categorize the injuries and the causes as follows: assault, suicide attempt, unintentional, or undetermined. Incidences were calculated by using the weighted number of cases and the intercensal population. Risk ratios compared incidences." Through the results it displays they looked into 7391 hospitalizations to produce the graph. They concluded with On average, 20 US children and adolescents were hospitalized each day in 2009 due to firearm injuries. Public health efforts are needed to reduce this common source of childhood injury.

    Being a hot topic, guns, I have added this infomation to shown their is no bias which is the most common conjecture.

    FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE: The authors have indicated they have
    no financial relationships relevant to this article to disclose.

    FUNDING: Supported by the Child Abuse Funds of the
    Department Pediatrics, Yale School of Medicine, and by
    donations to the Child Protection Team, Boston Medical Center.

    POTENTIAL CONFLICT OF INTEREST: The authors have indicated
    they have no potential conflicts of interest to disclose.
    Demographic information, including age at the time of the hospitalization (grouped as 04, 59, 1014, and 1519 years of age), gender, race, and health insurance (private, Medicaid, self-pay, or other), was obtained. Injuries were classified according to the International Classification of Diseases, Ninth Revision, Clinical Modification, codes for injuries (800904, 910959)8 and grouped into the following categories: traumatic brain injury (TBI); fracture; internal injury of the thorax, abdomen, or pelvis; open wound of head, neck, trunk, or limbs; injury to blood vessels; injury to nerves or spinal cord; and other. We excluded cases in which the only injury code was for a late effect.

    Overall, the estimated direct hospital costs of firearm-related hospitalizations were $146, 710, 029.
    Its daunting how as they age injury increases, decreases from accidental and increases significantly to intentional.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails alarming figures-dd.png  
    Tom Fairclough
    Credo faber est quisque fortunae suae
    I believe every man is the artisan of his own fortune
  5. #5  

    Default Re: alarming figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairclough View Post
    I think the main issue is that guns are often laying around the house, sometimes unused for years and when a child finds it catastrophe can occur.
    That is pure speculation on your part. That's why I would be interested in the other stats. I doubt that scenario is very often, but whether it is or isn't can't be determined by this study.

    Mooncatt in the method it states "We used the 2009 Kids Inpatient Database to identify hospitalizations from firearm-related injuries in young people <20 years of age; International Classification of Diseases, Ninth Revision, Clinical Modification, and external-cause-of injury codes were used to categorize the injuries and the causes as follows: assault, suicide attempt, unintentional, or undetermined. Incidences were calculated by using the weighted number of cases and the intercensal population. Risk ratios compared incidences." Through the results it displays they looked into 7391 hospitalizations to produce the graph. They concluded with On average, 20 US children and adolescents were hospitalized each day in 2009 due to firearm injuries. Public health efforts are needed to reduce this common source of childhood injury.
    But the statistical closeness between the three main reasons is still too close to call on the younger demographic simply due to the greatly lower incident rates. The overall was less than 5 per 100,000 for any one of the lower age groups, and that's before breaking down the reasons. And like I mentioned in my last post that it's to be expected accidents would rank higher anyway just by the nature of kids and their curiosity.
  6. #6  

    Default Re: alarming figures

    I wonder how the study would be if done in a rural area say in South Georgia? Kids growing up in an armed shooting family versus a kid growing up in a non firearm family?

    Education is the key to all things mechanical. If you grow up around firearms you would be more educated about firearms and more likely be more safe handling them.

    I would not want any teenager to have only a 30 min safety class on how to drive a 2 ton plus vehicle them leave them the keys and walk away. There safety and the general publics safety would be in grave danger.

    Firearms, vehicles, unprotected sex and drugs are everywhere these days. At some point in your kids life they will be in contact with these, please teach your kids responsibility there life may depend on it. Banning these things will not make them safer education on these things will.

    When driving down the highway at 65mph an oncoming truck passes by you within 4 feet with a combined speed of 130mph. You don't know this person and with the thousands of people killed each year in head on collisions you still trust they will not hit you. Even though you are 10+ times more likely to get killed in a car crash than shot. Then someone doesn't trust you to have a gun in your house. Seems weird to me..
  7. Thread Author  Thread Author    #7  

    Default Re: alarming figures

    When were driving we don't have 5 year olds on the roads do we? In one of the videos they produced with planted guns in the room straight after the education lesson on guns they were being held in their own faces pulling the trigger. Curiosity kills the cat. Just say if particularly with young ones surely more precautions must be taken. As for the young adolescents something else might need to be done.

    - Android Central App. N'oublions jamais l'Australie, Villers-Bretonneux.
    Tom Fairclough
    Credo faber est quisque fortunae suae
    I believe every man is the artisan of his own fortune
  8. #8  

    Default Re: alarming figures

    I'm still waiting for you to give a link to that follow-up study. I have some suspicions about it, but I don't want to jump the gun without seeing it.

    Yes, pun most definitely intended.
  9. #9  
    NoYankees44's Avatar

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    Default Re: alarming figures

    I am also waiting for the study with the children that were left with the gun in the room to be produced before commenting.

    The other numbers are not surprising. You can look at it as either we need to ban guns, or we need to demand responsibility of the parents. As per the current trend of society, I doubt that choosing more responsibility will be what is chosen. The failure of a society we are dictates that responsibility is too much to ask for anything.

    I grew up with guns in the house. Almost every child i knew growing up did as well. Yet magically, i have never known of a child being harmed by one. Sure i have seen news stories, but the sampling of a few hundred children that I have taken personally says that there is not a problem. If you really want to curve this trend, increase the punishment for parents allowing their children to be hurt by firearms. Then stop the gang problems that get teenagers shot.

    Having a gun in the house is a risk. Just like anything else. Driving with your children in the car is a risk too. One that can be made worse by not making the child wear a seat belt or not putting them in a proper car seat. Just like you can leave a gun unsecured instead of locked up or leaving yummy looking drain-O in a place a toddler can easily access.

    Teaching children respect for firearms is imperative and is not something that can be instilled in a 5 minute class. It has to be a lifestyle. Growing up, i knew from a young age exactly how to access the guns in my parent's house. I NEVER thought as a child to get one out. I never thought to even look in that direction. I knew exactly what they were capable of and was scared of them. I have to this day never touch one of my father's guns without him first handing it to me. Yet today i am an enthusiast and own my own firearms. Respect is everything
    Galaxy S3(unlocked on whatever I feel like flashing) ---- Asus Tf300(unlocked on CROMI)
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  10. #10  

    Default Re: alarming figures

    I just got finished watching a 20/20 special titled Young Guns, and part of it was similar to that study mentioned of kids playing with guns even after taking instruction about not doing so. I don't know if that was the same study Fairclough mentioned, but I'm guessing similar results. With the exception of kids around 10 years old, there were quite a few that still played with the gun. So here's my issues with it...

    First, they're kids. Their curiosity is going to get the best of them, no matter how much you tell them. Even if they've already lived around guns, kids at those ages are still unable to restrain themselves from temptation. Second, the guns were placed in a kids backpack. I could see that alone being enough to disarm a kid's restraint. After all, stuff in their backpack is safe to play with right? In their minds it is, and they don't yet have the mental capacity to realize something isn't right about the situation.

    That being said, the special was otherwise pretty fair and brought up some valid points from both sides of the kids and guns debate. The second segment was devoted to the other side of the debate, focusing on families where the kids were active shooters. I'm personally not opposed to kids shooting and learning with parental and/or instructor supervision, but I also agree the guns should be kept locked up and unloaded at home when it comes to kids. They also brought up the situation of a certain "My First Rifle" that looked like a pink toy gun, but was very much a real one. I'd never let my kids have a real gun that looked fake and make sure they understand any gun that isn't an obvious toy (I.e. with an orange barrel cap or something like a water gun) should be treated as a real one.
    Fairclough likes this.
  11. #11  

    Default Re: alarming figures

    Quote Originally Posted by NoYankees44 View Post
    I am also waiting for the study with the children that were left with the gun in the room to be produced before commenting.

    The other numbers are not surprising. You can look at it as either we need to ban guns, or we need to demand responsibility of the parents. As per the current trend of society, I doubt that choosing more responsibility will be what is chosen. The failure of a society we are dictates that responsibility is too much to ask for anything.

    I grew up with guns in the house. Almost every child i knew growing up did as well. Yet magically, i have never known of a child being harmed by one. Sure i have seen news stories, but the sampling of a few hundred children that I have taken personally says that there is not a problem. If you really want to curve this trend, increase the punishment for parents allowing their children to be hurt by firearms. Then stop the gang problems that get teenagers shot.

    Having a gun in the house is a risk. Just like anything else. Driving with your children in the car is a risk too. One that can be made worse by not making the child wear a seat belt or not putting them in a proper car seat. Just like you can leave a gun unsecured instead of locked up or leaving yummy looking drain-O in a place a toddler can easily access.

    Teaching children respect for firearms is imperative and is not something that can be instilled in a 5 minute class. It has to be a lifestyle. Growing up, i knew from a young age exactly how to access the guns in my parent's house. I NEVER thought as a child to get one out. I never thought to even look in that direction. I knew exactly what they were capable of and was scared of them. I have to this day never touch one of my father's guns without him first handing it to me. Yet today i am an enthusiast and own my own firearms. Respect is everything
    20/20 had a real good program tonight 1/31/2014 on kids and guns. Sometimes what you're talking about works, sometimes it doesn't. I hope you're able to catch a rerun of it and give us your opinion.
    Fairclough likes this.
  12. #12  

    Default Re: alarming figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    I just got finished watching a 20/20 special titled Young Guns....
    I just watched it too.
  13. Thread Author  Thread Author    #13  

    Default Re: alarming figures

    I had a similar programme aired here but not sure if it was the same. I wasn't able to find the actual study online though.

    Maybe we do get a lot of the same documentaries inter country.

    - Android Central App. N'oublions jamais l'Australie, Villers-Bretonneux.
    Tom Fairclough
    Credo faber est quisque fortunae suae
    I believe every man is the artisan of his own fortune
  14. #14  

    Default Re: alarming figures

    I think if you have a young kid and a gun you need to take proper precautions like anything with a young kid. A kid will find the evil side of a tv stand, cabinet or table to think they wont do the same with a gun is dumb, but is the staircase at fault when a child gets injured falling down them?
  15. #15  

    Default Re: alarming figures

    Responsible gun owners don't leave their guns "laying" around the house like a pair of socks.
  16. #16  

    Default Re: alarming figures

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveISU View Post
    Responsible gun owners don't leave their guns "laying" around the house like a pair of socks.
    Or like researchers trying to bait kids into playing with them.
  17. #17  

    Default Re: alarming figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    Or like researchers trying to bait kids into playing with them.
    I'd also like to know what guns they are using that 3yr olds can **** and fire. My wife can barely pull the slide back on my XDM .40 S&W
  18. #18  
    NoYankees44's Avatar

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    Default Re: alarming figures

    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    20/20 had a real good program tonight 1/31/2014 on kids and guns. Sometimes what you're talking about works, sometimes it doesn't. I hope you're able to catch a rerun of it and give us your opinion.
    Finally got time to look into this. A poor quality copy is on YouTube.

    Generally nothing they found was surprising. I am actually glad they aired it. Many people are stupid and ignorant with their guns and should have their eyes opened. It was unfortunately hopelessly bias though. They made only half hearted attempts to tell the other side of the story.

    A couple of issues:
    1. There was 0 gun education in the "briefing" of the children. It was all "guns are scary. Do not touch". You are begging children to be curious with that kind of teaching. It is like putting a shiny new toy in front of them and telling them they cannot have it till their birthday and then leaving the room. Children need to satisfy their curiosity in a safe and controlled manner. If these children had actually undergone a proper gun safety education, I speculate that you would have seen vastly different results.

    2. They never actually showed someone with proper security protecting their firearms. They just showed the ***** way and all the misfortune that accompanies it.

    3. We really need to define what an "assault weapon" is...

    4. People that "hide" loaded guns around their house are idiots.

    5. OMG they let a 4 year old shoot a 22 in a safe environment in his father's lap. O the humanity.
    Galaxy S3(unlocked on whatever I feel like flashing) ---- Asus Tf300(unlocked on CROMI)
    Htc Rezound(s-off on ViperRez) -- Addicted to crack and retired
  19. #19  

    Default Re: alarming figures

    Quote Originally Posted by NoYankees44 View Post
    A couple of issues:
    1. There was 0 gun education in the "briefing" of the children. It was all "guns are scary. Do not touch". You are begging children to be curious with that kind of teaching. It is like putting a shiny new toy in front of them and telling them they cannot have it till their birthday and then leaving the room. Children need to satisfy their curiosity in a safe and controlled manner. If these children had actually undergone a proper gun safety education, I speculate that you would have seen vastly different results.

    2. They never actually showed someone with proper security protecting their firearms. They just showed the ***** way and all the misfortune that accompanies it.

    3. We really need to define what an "assault weapon" is...

    4. People that "hide" loaded guns around their house are idiots.

    5. OMG they let a 4 year old shoot a 22 in a safe environment in his father's lap. O the humanity.
    1. I didn't see the "education" at the very beginning. I'll give the benefit of the doubt and agree with your point.

    2. Fair point, though they did show the one guy in that timing simulation near the end.

    3. The left already has. It's a gun that looks scary.

    4. Agreed

    5. How dare they!
  20. #20  

    Default Re: alarming figures

    It's real simple, if you spend $700 on a weapon, you should invest in a good safe to protect that weapon and others from it (ie...stay out of walmart). If you live in a neighborhood that requires you to keep a loaded gun on the nightstand to protect you and the baby mama + the 4yr old, 3yr old, 18mo old all sleeping in the 2nd bedroom, then maybe you should look into moving.

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