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  1. Thread Author  Thread Author    #1  

    Default What an embarrassment/joke....

    How any country could not only allow but also encourage their police force to harass everyday citizens like this that are just minding their own business is beyond me. Though they do not disclose why he was being questioned it appears that he was just getting gas, and then there are up to 5 patrol cars around him. Questioning him about his clothes, his friends, he states he has been pulled over 21 times for no reason, taken to court for 2 "infringements" and beat them both.

    There are 2 parts to the video. If they treat their citizens like this I wonder how they are with tourists these days.

    I miss my friend Matt McQuinn he touched so many lives, and in the end gave his life to protect someone that he loved. I am proud to have known him, and of the choices he made when it mattered. You were a true hero.

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  2. #2  
    Darth Spock's Avatar

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    Default Re: What an embarrassment/joke....

    IIRC several states in Australia made it illegal to be a part of several MCs and illegal to wear gang colours about six months ago (however not sure why I think it's 6 months, because websites I'm seeing here are indicating laws passed in 2009 and 2011 as the main legislation permitting this activity) after having several high profile crime sprees (mostly armed robberies, but also two public assassinations) directly attributable to international organized crime primarily takes the form of MCs in Australia. I'm not sure why they can't tell the difference between a social club and an MC, although I don't know anything about patch configurations in Australia, so it may not be quite as obvious as it is here.

    So essentially, the new law requires police to stop and search anyone that they believe might be in a criminal organization of this type (which is basically like our stop and frisk laws that everyone hates) and that's what this was, until the gentleman filming apparently refused to comply with the search, refused to provide identification and walked away from officers into the store (presumably to pay for his fuel). At that point, additional officers were called (which we would do here when a detained person evades custody) no matter how civil they are about it.



    I'm not really in favor of any law that mandates that persons not suspected of a crime being detained. This law doesn't require them to harass everyday citizens, only those who appear to be members of these MCs. So you can ride and not be wearing what appears to be colors and its totally fine, and even to the other extreme, if this guy would have provided identification and explained the difference between his SMC and an MC it'd probably have been a 20 second stop.

    The Misfits (his group) is not a criminal organization in itself, however it is vocally supportive of and participates in activities coordinated by the criminal gangs, so it's basically like saying that the card club isn't actually part of the mafia, they just hang out a lot. There can be non-criminal civilian members of affiliate clubs that are truly just in it for fraternity, etc... and there can also be criminal members that just haven't been brought in yet. If they're going to have laws like this, it might be a good idea to learn the difference.

    This law sucks, but the police in this case seemed to have handled the situation without escalating it, which is admirable, at least in the context of the amount of overboard that our police would have gone if someone they thought might be a gang member refused to produce ID and walked away from them.

    Misfits logo... clearly says SMC:



    So the argument against this activity would essentially be the same as the argument against stop and frisk laws that are being adopted here, in the US both would be things we should require a warrant for. Australia's laws are different in that you can be stopped at any time. It's a good and valid question: why would we ever allow police to detain anyone without a specific, reasonable purpose?

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  3. #3  

    Default Re: What an embarrassment/joke....

    I am guessing Fairclough can fill us in on the details.
  4. Thread Author  Thread Author    #4  

    Default Re: What an embarrassment/joke....

    I watched several other videos including some involving the misfits and from the conversation he was riding alone...
    I miss my friend Matt McQuinn he touched so many lives, and in the end gave his life to protect someone that he loved. I am proud to have known him, and of the choices he made when it mattered. You were a true hero.

    "You would not fear my weapon unless your intentions were to provoke my using it"
  5. #5  
    Darth Spock's Avatar

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    Default Re: What an embarrassment/joke....

    Quote Originally Posted by Live2ride883 View Post
    and from the conversation he was riding alone...
    I'm not sure what difference this would have made, but I agree it looks like he's by himself. It's the uniform, that provides the legal context for the stop. Just as one might make the assumption that a person in a US Military uniform is in the military, they may or may not be actively in the service and we may be assuming that is what the uniform is, and it might be something slightly different. Making mistakes is fairly common in the human species and as long as no harm is done and people aren't getting power trippy over stupid stuff, it's easy to forgive.

    From a law enforcement standpoint, their initial position is: This guy is dressed like he is in one of the gangs for which we have a law that prohibits citizens from wearing symbols of gang affiliation. I'm going to ask him about it. and it then moved to: person I stopped refused to show ID (technically illegal) and walked away during questioning (technically illegal and a potential safety issue to the officer), I'm going to call for backuand ended with: guess he's a friendly guy and not a criminal gang member, cya later! While the stop would have been, or ought to have been, illegal under the US Constitution, they don't have any obligation to follow that and are doing what they are required to by their policies. While I am opposed to random stops, if we grant that they are legal and move on to how it was handled, it looks like the officers involved conducted themselves fairly well.

    His attitude was a generally friendly form of belligerence that was unnecessary, but I didn't see him or they do anything overtly criminal under what I understand about their laws, so it's great that they didn't charge him with a crime.

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  6. #6  

    Default Re: What an embarrassment/joke....

    Often when I'm out and about, if I'm not operating a licensed vehicle or doing something else for which I need identification, I do not carry any I.D. Granted, that's not the same thing as the events of this video, but I'm not a hireling of this country.

    P.S.: We must always be on guard, as individuals and as society, over what is done, and what is considered to be right/lawful/legal. I'm willing to permanently deny to society the benefits of my existence as a punishment for its bad acts. Without that, no individual has any leverage.
    Last edited by Tall Mike 2145; 02-09-2014 at 07:42 AM.
  7. Thread Author  Thread Author    #7  

    Default Re: What an embarrassment/joke....

    I was discussing this with someone one another forum from Australia, and this is what he had to say about iut, and I agree with him.

    Gathering information on people (taking photos of their tattoos and bikes along with other info) that have done nothing wrong but enjoy a ride on a Harley, and using this info to form profiles on them to keep and store away (which is what's happening)....something's very wrong about what's going on here. My concern would be if they had photos of my tattoos then some guy robs a store and all they get is ****ty footage of the back of a guy that looks like me with tattoos that look similar or the same in a **** quality video cam. Seriously, what are they keeping these profiles on innocent people for?

    The new laws state that police now have the power to detain you on suspicion....that's just free game on anyone really wether you're driving your Hyundai Getz in a pink shirt or a Harley with a vest, either way they could suspect you're a criminal at their own discretion.

    To top that off they are also trying to introduce a new law where you need to register your tattoos. ****s going to get sideways very fast if they keep heading this way.
    I miss my friend Matt McQuinn he touched so many lives, and in the end gave his life to protect someone that he loved. I am proud to have known him, and of the choices he made when it mattered. You were a true hero.

    "You would not fear my weapon unless your intentions were to provoke my using it"
  8. #8  
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    Default Re: What an embarrassment/joke....

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingIsTrue View Post
    I'm not sure what difference this would have made, but I agree it looks like he's by himself. It's the uniform, that provides the legal context for the stop. Just as one might make the assumption that a person in a US Military uniform is in the military, they may or may not be actively in the service and we may be assuming that is what the uniform is, and it might be something slightly different. Making mistakes is fairly common in the human species and as long as no harm is done and people aren't getting power trippy over stupid stuff, it's easy to forgive.

    From a law enforcement standpoint, their initial position is: This guy is dressed like he is in one of the gangs for which we have a law that prohibits citizens from wearing symbols of gang affiliation. I'm going to ask him about it. and it then moved to: person I stopped refused to show ID (technically illegal) and walked away during questioning (technically illegal and a potential safety issue to the officer), I'm going to call for backuand ended with: guess he's a friendly guy and not a criminal gang member, cya later! While the stop would have been, or ought to have been, illegal under the US Constitution, they don't have any obligation to follow that and are doing what they are required to by their policies. While I am opposed to random stops, if we grant that they are legal and move on to how it was handled, it looks like the officers involved conducted themselves fairly well.

    His attitude was a generally friendly form of belligerence that was unnecessary, but I didn't see him or they do anything overtly criminal under what I understand about their laws, so it's great that they didn't charge him with a crime.
    Fell free to provide evidence if I am wrong, but I believe that in the US citizens do not have to submit id unless there is a suspicion of a crime. For instance, traffic stops they can required id if there is suspicion of a traffic, ect. If the police officer States the crime they are suspected of committing, then id is required. If there is no suspected crime or public safety concern(huge grey area), the police have no right to require anything of you.
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  9. #9  
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    Default Re: What an embarrassment/joke....

    This kind of thing happens in the states all the time as well. I personally have been treated in a way that I feel was unwarranted and border line harassment before. Unfortunately I was young and stupid and afraid and did not exercise my rights properly.

    Here is one that happened in TN last summer at a dui checkpoint. I do not support the tactics the kid used, but he was legally within his rights and the cops unrightfully mistreated him.



    Here is another that was completely out of line. The cop stopped the guy for carrying a gun... Despite it being perfectly legal for him to do so. The guy made sure the cop knew it as well:

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  10. #10  

    Default Re: What an embarrassment/joke....

    The NY Stop and Frisk law is another law that I'm surprised has gone on for as long as it has. What's funny is the proponents of such a law are ok with it since the chance of them being stopped and frisked is next to nothing. "As long as the law doesn't affect me, I'm ok with it" seems to be the motto by which some people live by.
    nolittdroid likes this.
  11. #11  

    Default Re: What an embarrassment/joke....

    Quote Originally Posted by NoYankees44 View Post
    Fell free to provide evidence if I am wrong, but I believe that in the US citizens do not have to submit id unless there is a suspicion of a crime. For instance, traffic stops they can required id if there is suspicion of a traffic, ect. If the police officer States the crime they are suspected of committing, then id is required. If there is no suspected crime or public safety concern(huge grey area), the police have no right to require anything of you.
    LOL! I think you generate suspicion if you refuse to show ID. I was driving on the expressway, my electric gas pump failed and my truck stopped. A highway patrol officer came up and I told him what happened and I that I had called the Chrysler tow line. He asked for my ID and I gave it to him. I am sure he did a check on it and I would think that's standard procedure when they have contact with anyone. If I would have started with the whole bit about the Constitution, it wouldn't have went as smoothly.

    About the DUI checkpoint video you posted. Has there been a state that has declared them unconstitutional? I don't like then either. I had a CTA job for a while that got over at 2:00am and I ran into those DUI checkpoints all the time. They had one by the shop I was working for and they got so use to seeing me every night they started flagging me through.
  12. #12  

    Default Re: What an embarrassment/joke....

    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    LOL! I think you generate suspicion if you refuse to show ID. I was driving on the expressway, my electric gas pump failed and my truck stopped. A highway patrol officer came up and I told him what happened and I that I had called the Chrysler tow line. He asked for my ID and I gave it to him. I am sure he did a check on it and I would think that's standard procedure when they have contact with anyone. If I would have started with the whole bit about the Constitution, it wouldn't have went as smoothly.

    About the DUI checkpoint video you posted. Has there been a state that has declared them unconstitutional? I don't like then either. I had a CTA job for a while that got over at 2:00am and I ran into those DUI checkpoints all the time. They had one by the shop I was working for and they got so use to seeing me every night they started flagging me through.
    I had to lol too. When you see an idealistic post like that, you can see why some people have the viewpoints they have. Back when I had my GTO, I had some magnaflow mufflers installed with an X-pipe (car guys will know what I'm talking about) and dropped it a gear to hear the rumble of the glorious V8. I was probably going a few miles over the speed limit, but nothing drastic since I was actually a few blocks away from work. I had an unmarked police officer pull me over and when I asked him why he pulled me over, his answer was that there was a reported bank robbery in the area. He asked me for the standard license and registration. I still think he mostly pulled me over because of my aftermarket exhaust (which was legal btw). As much as we'd like to believe that we live in a free country, we live in mostly a police state, which as an American citizen is troubling to me.
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  13. #13  
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    Default Re: What an embarrassment/joke....

    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    LOL! I think you generate suspicion if you refuse to show ID. I was driving on the expressway, my electric gas pump failed and my truck stopped. A highway patrol officer came up and I told him what happened and I that I had called the Chrysler tow line. He asked for my ID and I gave it to him. I am sure he did a check on it and I would think that's standard procedure when they have contact with anyone. If I would have started with the whole bit about the Constitution, it wouldn't have went as smoothly.

    About the DUI checkpoint video you posted. Has there been a state that has declared them unconstitutional? I don't like then either. I had a CTA job for a while that got over at 2:00am and I ran into those DUI checkpoints all the time. They had one by the shop I was working for and they got so use to seeing me every night they started flagging me through.
    Yeah I am not sure how true that really is. And the kid in the video baited the cops, they just fell for it hook line and sinker.

    I would only ever refuse to show id there was absolutely 0 reason for police to ask.

    Last time I got pulled over the officer went on an all out phishing expedition. Even asked for my wife's id. Ran plates, both licenses, checked Vin, and even made me get out of the car and integrated me about having any weapons etc. All for doing 5mph over the speed limit. Of course he found nothing and basically just wasted 30 minutes of my life, but it was irritating to say the least.

    If anyone that ever reads this does not know. NEVER give a cop concent to search your car. If he has cause, he an search without concent anyway. If he asks, he is phishing. Things don't always go your way on phishing expeditions, whether you have done anything wrong or not.
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  14. #14  

    Default Re: What an embarrassment/joke....

    Quote Originally Posted by NoYankees44 View Post
    Yeah I am not sure how true that really is. And the kid in the video baited the cops, they just fell for it hook line and sinker.

    I would only ever refuse to show id there was absolutely 0 reason for police to ask.

    Last time I got pulled over the officer went on an all out phishing expedition. Even asked for my wife's id. Ran plates, both licenses, checked Vin, and even made me get out of the car and integrated me about having any weapons etc. All for doing 5mph over the speed limit. Of course he found nothing and basically just wasted 30 minutes of my life, but it was irritating to say the least.

    If anyone that ever reads this does not know. NEVER give a cop concent to search your car. If he has cause, he an search without concent anyway. If he asks, he is phishing. Things don't always go your way on phishing expeditions, whether you have done anything wrong or not.
    You raise some good, valid points.

    I understand why you're saying, "I would only ever refuse to show id there was absolutely 0 reason for police to ask.", but why would he ask for it if he didn't have a reason, no matter how trivial it may be. What you're saying is a valid point, but a little cooperation can save you a lot of hassle. It's like the DUI checkpoint by the shop I was working for that I kept running into when I was working nights. After explaining for three nights in a row that I was working on the CTA blue line, they started waving me through.

    You also make a very valid point about not giving your consent to search your vehicle, but as you saw in the DUI checkpoint video you posted, they brought in the dogs and they said the dog smelled drugs and the next thing you know is they're searching the vehicle. There's always the possibility that you you could run into a rogue cop that plants something. If that happened to me, I would immediately get an attorney and take a polygraph test, then watch how quickly the states attorney drops the charges against you. Then you also have a potential civil and or criminal case against the rogue cop.

    I got to ask again, has any state declared DUI checkpoints unconstitutional?
  15. Thread Author  Thread Author    #15  

    Default Re: What an embarrassment/joke....

    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post

    I got to ask again, has any state declared DUI checkpoints unconstitutional?




    Ultimately, the U.S. Supreme Court decided to leave it up to each state to determine whether law officers could use DUI checkpoints to apprehend suspected drunk drivers. Following this ruling, eleven states passed laws to prohibit roadblocks, while the remaining 39 states continued to allow them.

    So what does that mean for you? Well, if you are lucky enough to live in one of the states where roadblocks aren’t allowed (Alaska, Idaho, Iowa, Michigan, Minnesota, Oregon, Rhode Island, Texas, Washington, Wisconsin, and Wyoming), you have nothing to worry about. The rest of us, meanwhile, should take certain precautions to reduce the chances of being arrested during a DUI checkpoint—such as avoiding making incriminating statements about earlier activities or admitting to drinking alcohol, for example.

    In Ohio the date, time, location and the extent of which the officers manning the post can act must be published in advance. Intentionally avoiding a DUI checkpoint is not a sufficient reason to be pulled over as long as no laws are broken, such as performing an illegal u-turn. However you could turn around in someones driveway, or in a store parking lot.
    Last edited by Live2ride883; 02-11-2014 at 12:40 AM.
    I miss my friend Matt McQuinn he touched so many lives, and in the end gave his life to protect someone that he loved. I am proud to have known him, and of the choices he made when it mattered. You were a true hero.

    "You would not fear my weapon unless your intentions were to provoke my using it"
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    palandri likes this.
  16. #16  

    Default Re: What an embarrassment/joke....

    Quote Originally Posted by Live2ride883 View Post
    That's interesting. It generates another question in my mind. They said, "... the court found that, due to the threat a drunk driver imposes on other motorists, they were a necessary means of protection...." The city I live in also sets up what they call "Safety Checkpoints" during the day to see if people are wearing their seat belts, which has nothing to do with a threat poses by a drunken driver. They are actually quite dumb since the line up of cars gives you 3 to 5 minutes to put your seat belt on. I suppose they would claim it's actually a sobriety checkpoint, rather than a safety checkpoint.
  17. #17  

    Default Re: What an embarrassment/joke....

    Quote Originally Posted by TXGTOU View Post
    I had to lol too. When you see an idealistic post like that, you can see why some people have the viewpoints they have. Back when I had my GTO, I had some magnaflow mufflers installed with an X-pipe (car guys will know what I'm talking about) and dropped it a gear to hear the rumble of the glorious V8. I was probably going a few miles over the speed limit, but nothing drastic since I was actually a few blocks away from work. I had an unmarked police officer pull me over and when I asked him why he pulled me over, his answer was that there was a reported bank robbery in the area. He asked me for the standard license and registration. I still think he mostly pulled me over because of my aftermarket exhaust (which was legal btw). As much as we'd like to believe that we live in a free country, we live in mostly a police state, which as an American citizen is troubling to me.
    What year GTO? DH has one...we get stopped all tbe time!....he carries ID.

    Actually the idea of not having id on me is bizarre. I can't imagine driving without out it. Cops around here can be ruthless.

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  18. #18  

    Default Re: What an embarrassment/joke....

    Quote Originally Posted by nolittdroid View Post
    What year GTO? DH has one...we get stopped all tbe time!....he carries ID.

    Actually the idea of not having id on me is bizarre. I can't imagine driving without out it. Cops around here can be ruthless.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    I had an 06 but it got too expensive for me so I had to let her go. I am in an "economical" car now. I definitely miss dropping it in 3rd gear and scaring the hell out of my passengers (and sometimes myself). I'm thinking if Ponitac had more rear wheel drive cars like that, they might still be around today.

    As far as ID goes, a driver's license is one thing, but having to carry ID everywhere so that an officer can verify who you are, to me that's a tell-tale sign that we live in a police state.
  19. #19  

    Default Re: What an embarrassment/joke....

    First off, sorry guys for my absentee from the politics section recently I have been an ambassador at SWF and have been spending quite some time down that end of the woods rather then here. If an opinion of mine is requested in a particular thread (only noticed this one just then) flick me an email and ill open it up straight away . Matt you would be thinking 6 months as there was some minor legislation passed previously however around 6 months ago stronger legislation was passed in attempt to block criminal organisations from gather. These included rights in some states to tear down fortified fences around club houses. In this case in Queensland their act is Vicious Lawless Association Disestablishment Act 2013 (QLD). I personally am not up to date on all Queensland laws as I rarely head that way only to visit a brother.


    Under Australian law you are required to carry a licence with you when driving a motor vehicle this is generally for the obvious reasons to check you are in fact allowed to operate the vehicle and to see if you are operating under the required limits e.g. a P plater and Learner driver must have a 0.00 Blood Alcohol Limit while full permit driver can operate below 0.05. In Queensland and a few other states there stricter laws with license e.g. Horsepower restrictions on new drivers under hoon laws. This would be why Identification is required.

    In regards to the vest the legislation intends to disassemble criminal gangs, a check of what is on it e.g to see if the Phoenix, Hells Angels, Coffin Cheaters etc logos are shown. These are our equitant of the Crims and Bloods. This is due to the ban of affiliation with the gangs in Queensland, some gangs have the entry requirement to commit a murder before consideration.

    By the sounds of the man in the video it sounds like he is trying to antagonise the police officers and trying to taunt them, I must say the lady holds her ground quiet well. I find if you just speak calmly with police and answer the questions your generally let on quickly.
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