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    Serial Fordicator's Avatar

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    Default Ukraine (and Russia)

    This is a violent video. Be warned. It's why we have a 2nd ammendment. This is what happens when only the police and military are armed.

    LiveLeak.com - 3 camera coverage live killing event: Ukraine Killing Street 2.20.2014

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  2. #2  

    Default re: Ukraine (and Russia)

    I'm surprised more people aren't talking about Ukraine. It's turning in to a big big deal. And if Russia starts trying to put the Soviet Union back together again, that will not go over well. We could all be in for a real ugly future here for awhile.
  3. #3  
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    Default re: Ukraine (and Russia)

    No this is a terrible situation. Less than this has gotten the ball rolling on world wars. Lots of possible outcomes could come out of this. Many of them are terrible for lots of people.
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  4. #4  

    Default re: Ukraine (and Russia)

    Sad thing to see

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    Default re: Ukraine (and Russia)

    Putin is a megalomaniac. There are a lot of things going on behind the scenes that are at the root of this but mainly Putin has never gotten over the break up of the Soviet Union and he is determined to be the Savior that returns Mother Russia to its former glory, no matter what it takes. If it isn't resolved in the next week or so without escalation, we're in for a bumpy ride. It will be interesting to watch if Congress can pull together and act as one on this crisis.

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  6. #6  

    Default re: Ukraine (and Russia)

    There's a section of Chicago called Ukrainian Village. I've worked with a few electricians from the Ukraine. About 3 years ago, one of the Ukrainian electricians I worked with sent his son to the Ukraine when he turned 16 years old to stay with relatives. On the first day, someone ran up to him and snatched his gold necklace off his neck. Then during the week him and his cousin was mugged by a group 15-16 year old kids and he had all his money stolen. The Ukraine doesn't sound like very nice place to me.
  7. Thread Author  Thread Author    #7  
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    Default re: Ukraine (and Russia)

    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    There's a section of Chicago called Ukrainian Village. I've worked with a few electricians from the Ukraine. About 3 years ago, one of the Ukrainian electricians I worked with sent his son to the Ukraine when he turned 16 years old to stay with relatives. On the first day, someone ran up to him and snatched his gold necklace off his neck. Then during the week him and his cousin was mugged by a group 15-16 year old kids and he had all his money stolen. The Ukraine doesn't sound like very nice place to me.
    Oh, I thought you meant he sent him to Chicago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    There's a section of Chicago called Ukrainian Village. I've worked with a few electricians from the Ukraine. About 3 years ago, one of the Ukrainian electricians I worked with sent his son to the Ukraine when he turned 16 years old to stay with relatives. On the first day, someone ran up to him and snatched his gold necklace off his neck. Then during the week him and his cousin was mugged by a group 15-16 year old kids and he had all his money stolen. The Ukraine doesn't sound like very nice place to me.
    That's strange I got mugged in Chicago last year!! Is that near Ukraine????


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    msndrstood's Avatar

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    Default re: Ukraine (and Russia)

    :rolleyes:

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  10. #10  

    Default re: Ukraine (and Russia)

    Quote Originally Posted by GadgetGator View Post
    I'm surprised more people aren't talking about Ukraine. It's turning in to a big big deal.
    Does the US need to get involved in the Ukraine? We're already busy in Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Korean peninsula.
  11. #11  
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    Default re: Ukraine (and Russia)

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott7217 View Post
    Does the US need to get involved in the Ukraine? We're already busy in Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Korean peninsula.
    It's geopolitical politics. You make it sound like the only option is military.

    Politically we're already involved in almost everything that happens between countries anywhere in the world.
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  12. #12  

    Default re: Ukraine (and Russia)

    This is a complete load of crap. We have no business involving ourselves in yet another nation's affairs. 1947. 1950. 1952. 1956-75. 79 Iranian Revolution (response to our actions in 1952). Countless sorties and ops throughout Central and South America. Actions in the Middle East that led to creating OBL and Saddam Hussein. Need I go on?

    When are we going to stop this war mongering?
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  13. #13  

    Default re: Ukraine (and Russia)

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott7217 View Post
    Does the US need to get involved in the Ukraine? We're already busy in Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Korean peninsula.
    We won't be in Afghanistan much longer, so that takes that off the table. Iraq..um, not sure why that is being brought up, we're not "busy" there at all. Korea, yes. That is a long term commitment, but so is Ukraine. What apparently you do not realize is that Russia, the UK, Ukraine, and yes, the United States signed a treaty that recognized Ukraine as a sovereign nation in exchange for it handing over the nukes that the former Soviet Union had placed there. So your question of involvement already happened long ago. The real question then, is do we enforce the treaties we have entered into. If not, then why sign them? There is an additional reason we need to be involved which I will answer below....

    Quote Originally Posted by Tall Mike 2145 View Post
    This is a complete load of crap. We have no business involving ourselves in yet another nation's affairs. 1947. 1950. 1952. 1956-75. 79 Iranian Revolution (response to our actions in 1952). Countless sorties and ops throughout Central and South America. Actions in the Middle East that led to creating OBL and Saddam Hussein. Need I go on?

    When are we going to stop this war mongering?
    War mongering? How is it war mongering defending something? If you want to complain about war mongering, you are complaining to the wrong country...complain to Putin. And as I mentioned up above, that ship sailed awhile back. So, we are not involving ourselves in "yet" another nation, but rather one we already committed to quite some time ago.

    And there is a critical reason why we need to. In addition to the treaty we signed for Ukraine, part of the membership agreement in NATO is for NATO countries to come to the defense and aid of each other. Guess what is just on the other side of Ukraine's borders? NATO countries. Ukraine has acted as somewhat of a buffer here, but if it returns to cold war status, and east meets west right up against each other again....well, it's not too hard to see history repeating itself here. And that won't be beneficial for anyone.

    Yes our involvement in world affairs has caused some problems, and it hasn't been perfect...no foreign policy ever can be. But sitting back and letting the world go to hell around you really doesn't work either.
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  14. #14  

    Default re: Ukraine (and Russia)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tall Mike 2145 View Post
    This is a complete load of crap. We have no business involving ourselves in yet another nation's affairs. 1947. 1950. 1952. 1956-75. 79 Iranian Revolution (response to our actions in 1952). Countless sorties and ops throughout Central and South America. Actions in the Middle East that led to creating OBL and Saddam Hussein. Need I go on?

    When are we going to stop this war mongering?
    I think you're pretty well spot on with your assessment.

    Here's the problem, I bet no one here knows what you're talking about when you mentioned Iran in 1952. Nobody here knows what we did in Chile when their democratically elected president, Salvador Allende said, the wealth of Chile shall belong to the people of Chile and attempted to nationalize the copper mines of Chile. Why were we in Vietnam? To stop the spread of Communism? How many lives were lost? Now we're trading partners with Communist Vietnam? How could that be.

    What would happen if Puerto Rico had the same type of riots and overthrew their standing government? Would we standby? Or would we send in troops to restore democracy? Would that be any different from what is happening in the Ukraine?
    Last edited by palandri; 03-05-2014 at 08:02 AM.
  15. #15  

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    Many people are on some kind of one way thinking that all involvement of the US military is somehow evil and wrong. It really doesn't matter the circumstances. It's an ideology that involves in my opinion a bit of anti American train of thought and that we are the trouble makers. While getting involved in righting wrongs in the world is never perfect, like said above, if we never did anything, the world would not be as it is today. Non of these "war monger" proponents use common sense or rational thought. Heck many people vote this way.. hence why we are in the mess we're in.

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  16. #16  

    Default re: Ukraine (and Russia)

    Remember when some of you chuckled when Obama said in the debate with Romney "the eighties called and they want their foreign policy back" in his comedian in chief style? "Russia is not a threat ". Aside from the non professional attitude, the fact that he didn't recognize the power and interests of Putin is down right scary.

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  17. #17  

    Default re: Ukraine (and Russia)

    Many of you folks seem to believe the only two options on the table are to either live under a rock to hide from a "cruel world" or to take it over ourselves. I largely put this down to the propaganda of the Rep/Dem party (or "parties" if that's how you want to believe) and its influence on a public that knows of no other options.
  18. #18  

    Default re: Ukraine (and Russia)

    Quote Originally Posted by GadgetGator View Post
    What apparently you do not realize is that Russia, the UK, Ukraine, and yes, the United States signed a treaty that recognized Ukraine as a sovereign nation in exchange for it handing over the nukes that the former Soviet Union had placed there.
    I am aware of the treaty. I would also say Obama is aware of the treaty. How would you rate Obama's performance in handling the crisis in the Ukraine?
  19. #19  

    Default re: Ukraine (and Russia)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bnjf View Post
    Remember when some of you chuckled when Obama said in the debate with Romney "the eighties called and they want their foreign policy back" in his comedian in chief style? "Russia is not a threat ". Aside from the non professional attitude, the fact that he didn't recognize the power and interests of Putin is down right scary.
    The time to have done something about Russia was immediately after WWII. As it turns out, Patton was very, very right about a number of things, and we could have probably done a lot of good in getting rid of Stalin, et al. We could have averted another 45 years of tensions, prevented both the Korean and Vietnam wars, avoided the future Afghanistanian conflict which would then have also neatly avoided setting up OBL, Al Qaeda, the Taliban, etc.

    "We need to fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here" is actually good advice on a certain fundamental level. Unfortunately, it is advice better applied to a long scope of time, not merely "only" to present events.
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  20. #20  

    Default re: Ukraine (and Russia)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tall Mike 2145 View Post
    Many of you folks seem to believe the only two options on the table are to either live under a rock to hide from a "cruel world" or to take it over ourselves.
    Furthermore, I don't think it's bad to show a little restraint. At the time that I'm writing this, no one has started shooting (and I hope no one does). What if the US just barges into the Ukraine and makes the situation worse?
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    Default re: Ukraine (and Russia)

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott7217 View Post
    What if the US just barges into the Ukraine ?
    I dont think we will see that happen
  22. #22  
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    Default re: Ukraine (and Russia)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tall Mike 2145 View Post
    Many of you folks seem to believe the only two options on the table are to either live under a rock to hide from a "cruel world" or to take it over ourselves. I largely put this down to the propaganda of the Rep/Dem party (or "parties" if that's how you want to believe) and its influence on a public that knows of no other options.
    I'd like us, for once, to take a wait and see approach when it comes to military action. Do everything we can politically and economically to help our allies, of course. Maybe let some other country take the lead and just be a follower. Germany seems like a good choice for this particular instance. Let them and the rest of the EU decide what to do, and just lend them our support. If they want sanctions, we help, if they want to freeze assets, we help. If they want a NATO force, we help, but don't lead, and don't commit the majority of the force, either.

    We don't need to be at the front of everything just because we're viewed as the most powerful country in the world. Sometimes stuff that happens "there" just needs to be handled by those "there".
    Kevin F.I.M.T.K. O'Quinn Esq.
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  23. #23  
    Kevin O'Quinn's Avatar
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    Default re: Ukraine (and Russia)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tall Mike 2145 View Post
    The time to have done something about Russia was immediately after WWII. As it turns out, Patton was very, very right about a number of things, and we could have probably done a lot of good in getting rid of Stalin, et al. We could have averted another 45 years of tensions, prevented both the Korean and Vietnam wars, avoided the future Afghanistanian conflict which would then have also neatly avoided setting up OBL, Al Qaeda, the Taliban, etc.

    "We need to fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here" is actually good advice on a certain fundamental level. Unfortunately, it is advice better applied to a long scope of time, not merely "only" to present events.
    It wouldn't surprise me one bit if we learned that certain aspects of the intelligence agency and/or military never stopped acting like we were still in the cold war. This could just be the next stage in the same cold war we were in before. The fall of Communism in Russia wasn't the fall of a mindset, culture, or overall political climate. It was just a change in form of government. The KGB still exists (in spirit, under a new name), the military is still there, they still have the weapons they had before.

    This could be the "long scope of time" you mentioned just becoming more "public".
    Kevin F.I.M.T.K. O'Quinn Esq.
  24. #24  

    Default re: Ukraine (and Russia)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bnjf View Post
    Remember when some of you chuckled when Obama said in the debate with Romney "the eighties called and they want their foreign policy back" in his comedian in chief style? "Russia is not a threat ". Aside from the non professional attitude, the fact that he didn't recognize the power and interests of Putin is down right scary.
    Well, at least he didn't invite the man onto his property, claim to have looked into his soul through his eyes, and proclaim him a man he could trust! I will say that if Romney had become President, those words could have haunted him. You won't get far with someone referring to them as an enemy. If you want to work with them, then you have to be a bit more diplomatic. Something that was not in Romney's wheelhouse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott7217 View Post
    I am aware of the treaty. I would also say Obama is aware of the treaty. How would you rate Obama's performance in handling the crisis in the Ukraine?
    If you are aware of the treaty, then why are you asking if we should be there supporting Ukraine? Do you consider the enforcement of treaties to be meaningless? As to how I would rate Obama in this, it is waaaaaaaaay too early to give that assessment. It amazes me that with this situation only being a week old, people want to Monday Morning Quarterback this thing already. There will be plenty of time for looking back later. Right now, we are still in the middle of things.
  25. #25  

    Default re: Ukraine (and Russia)

    Quote Originally Posted by GadgetGator View Post
    If you are aware of the treaty, then why are you asking if we should be there supporting Ukraine?
    I'm simply asking for us to be prudent, especially in a situation where we may be putting innocent civilians in harm's way. There's no harm in asking. At the time that I am writing this, no one has fired a shot, and it looks like Ukraine and Russia are talking to each other to settle this peacefully.
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