04-02-2014 02:20 PM
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  1. anon8126715's Avatar
    You're probably wondering why I have this posted in the politics forum, and it will become clear upon further reading. The reason I find myself asking this question is that it seems every place I work, there seems to be a couple of people (and they always seem to fit the same demographic) that insist on hiding and holding onto some tricks of the trade that they believe makes them more valuable to our employer.

    I tend to see the same attitude by the right wing when it comes to everything from equal access to education as well as access to legal counsel, tax loopholes, etc. My question then to those on the right, if you so strongly believe in "survival of the fittest", Darwinian rule, and allowing the creme to rise to the top, why do you continue to feel threatened by giving EVERY able bodied person equal access to knowledge?

    I know the answer, but I would love to have a right winger acknowledge that they stifle knowledge to others for the same reason some of my co-workers try to keep things to themselves. It's mostly an attempt at maintaining power. It's actually a sad and pathetic way of maintaining power IMO. By inhibiting the flow of knowledge, all we're doing is creating aberrations of our reality. Instead of being led by the best and brightest, we have a mixed bag of incompetence, inexperience, and ineptitude. Probably one of the most famous recent examples is GWB. Now I understand that he's an all too easy target, but look at all his past failures prior to his presidency. If he's not a shining example of the system being rigged, then I don't know what qualifies.

    Thus, I ask you to take a quick inventory. Are you someone that holds onto knowledge so that you can wield it for your benefit, or are you someone that will share what you know for the betterment of your organization? I will admit that I've had to stop sharing information with certain people within my organization when I've found out that they weren't sharing what they knew. While I felt dirty in doing so, with one person in particular, the feeling didn't last very long especially considering that early on I had shown him some resources that put him on equal footing with me. He was let go from the company only a few months later.

    Keep in mind, if you decide to be a hoarder of knowledge, all you're doing is inhibiting progress, your own, your organization's, and our society's.
    palandri, msndrstood and A895 like this.
    03-24-2014 06:12 AM
  2. palandri's Avatar
    Your question is similar to what WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange talked about. Why do we have classified, censored or secret documents, why not be open and honest? Isn't it so we can be one up on another? Would any spying be necessary if everyone was open and honest? Would anyone bother to spy on the U.S. if we we were always open and honest about everything? He has a point.
    03-24-2014 11:01 AM
  3. Aquila's Avatar
    I find it very unlikely that anyone who is this person will either recognize it, self-identify here, or both.

    XTNiT-1060 through spacetime.
    UJ95x likes this.
    03-24-2014 11:30 AM
  4. Mooncatt's Avatar
    @TXGTOU

    This sounds like it could be an attempt at baiting. For example, someone (typically from the left) who wants taxpayer funded college for everyone could use the same argument you used. That being said, I do agree with you that sharing knowledge can be a great thing, with some exceptions. I used to consider myself on the right, but not anymore. This issue wasn't why I switched, but even back then I was always willing to share info when it came to helping co-workers and such. I've also seen plenty of people on the left hoarding as well. So I would wager this isn't really a left/right/other view as you propose.

    @Palandri

    Your examples would be the exceptions I mentioned earlier. When it comes to spying, safety, investigations, etc., having some things remain secret is more beneficial and/or serve the better good more than having everything out in the open.
    btswein likes this.
    03-24-2014 03:01 PM
  5. NoYankees44's Avatar
    As stated above, this whole thread is probably flame bait, but I will participate until that proves to be true:

    I am going to need more specifics before I can comment on this from a societal standpoint. Currently I am not sure what policies you are referring to.

    In response to the workplace, my workplace more of less the opposite. Many avoid learning because with education comes responsibility. But my work place also has every employee with minimum responsibilities instead maximum meaning that you are told your minimum. There is no maximum. If you can do the job, you do the job regardless of responsibility. Now there are safety and technical limitations of course, but from a basic level it is wide open. It is also why go getters rise quickly and those that wait never rise. Most of the management started on the line loading parts which is the lowest paying product related job in the facility.

    My little tangent aside, most in my workplace will share anything they are allowed to. They may not try to tell everyone, but they will tell anyone that asks.
    03-24-2014 03:19 PM
  6. NoYankees44's Avatar
    Your question is similar to what WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange talked about. Why do we have classified, censored or secret documents, why not be open and honest? Isn't it so we can be one up on another? Would any spying be necessary if everyone was open and honest? Would anyone bother to spy on the U.S. if we we were always open and honest about everything? He has a point.
    It is an interesting concept. But it is a very "perfect" world type of thinking. It would require a world government and much less division than we have now. All competition would be erased. All patent systems removed. A very everyone owns everything "hippy"/socialist type society.
    03-24-2014 03:23 PM
  7. anon8126715's Avatar
    As stated above, this whole thread is probably flame bait, but I will participate until that proves to be true:

    I am going to need more specifics before I can comment on this from a societal standpoint. Currently I am not sure what policies you are referring to.

    In response to the workplace, my workplace more of less the opposite. Many avoid learning because with education comes responsibility. But my work place also has every employee with minimum responsibilities instead maximum meaning that you are told your minimum. There is no maximum. If you can do the job, you do the job regardless of responsibility. Now there are safety and technical limitations of course, but from a basic level it is wide open. It is also why go getters rise quickly and those that wait never rise. Most of the management started on the line loading parts which is the lowest paying product related job in the facility.

    My little tangent aside, most in my workplace will share anything they are allowed to. They may not try to tell everyone, but they will tell anyone that asks.

    It's not so much flame bait as it is my observation of some of the right wing. Look at Santorum (I hope me posting his name doesn't get me a ban btw... :-p ), he doesn't think college is for everyone and stated on the campaign trail that he doesn't believe everyone should look to get education after high school. Look at the right wing's attempt at skirting science because some of the scientific FINDINGS go against their religious teachings. Then you look at the right's attempts at cutting education or increasing finance rates on student loans. You can't help wonder why the right has a bad track record against education until you equate education and power.
    03-24-2014 05:01 PM
  8. Mooncatt's Avatar
    It's not so much flame bait as it is my observation of some of the right wing. Look at Santorum (I hope me posting his name doesn't get me a ban btw... :-p ), he doesn't think college is for everyone and stated on the campaign trail that he doesn't believe everyone should look to get education after high school. Look at the right wing's attempt at skirting science because some of the scientific FINDINGS go against their religious teachings. Then you look at the right's attempts at cutting education or increasing finance rates on student loans. You can't help wonder why the right has a bad track record against education until you equate education and power.
    Let me ask you this: Do you think a junky who prefers being strung out on drugs over being a productive citizen belongs in a college setting? Yes, there are some people that don't belong there. There's also plenty of examples of people doing well for themselves without a formal degree (or like me that got a degree in one field, but work in another that's unrelated).
    03-24-2014 05:28 PM
  9. palandri's Avatar
    @Palandri

    Your examples would be the exceptions I mentioned earlier. When it comes to spying, safety, investigations, etc., having some things remain secret is more beneficial and/or serve the better good more than having everything out in the open.
    I don't agree because what you're saying is in some circumstances ignorance is bliss.
    03-24-2014 05:33 PM
  10. palandri's Avatar
    It is an interesting concept. But it is a very "perfect" world type of thinking. It would require a world government and much less division than we have now. All competition would be erased. All patent systems removed. A very everyone owns everything "hippy"/socialist type society.
    I don't think the term, "hippy" is really used anymore, but I might be wrong.

    The less you strive for perfection, the farther away you are from it.
    03-24-2014 05:39 PM
  11. Aquila's Avatar
    I don't think the term, "hippy" is really used anymore, but I might be wrong.

    The less you strive for perfection, the farther away you are from it.
    I'm not sure if anyone else uses it, but I call my wife and oldest daughter (4yo) hippies all the time. No clue what hippies have to do with sharing or hoarding knowledge.

    XTNiT-1060 through spacetime.
    03-24-2014 05:59 PM
  12. Mooncatt's Avatar
    I don't agree because what you're saying is in some circumstances ignorance is bliss.
    That's not what I'm saying, but you're free to think that.
    03-24-2014 06:02 PM
  13. NoYankees44's Avatar
    It's not so much flame bait as it is my observation of some of the right wing. Look at Santorum (I hope me posting his name doesn't get me a ban btw... :-p ), he doesn't think college is for everyone and stated on the campaign trail that he doesn't believe everyone should look to get education after high school. Look at the right wing's attempt at skirting science because some of the scientific FINDINGS go against their religious teachings. Then you look at the right's attempts at cutting education or increasing finance rates on student loans. You can't help wonder why the right has a bad track record against education until you equate education and power.
    Education as a whole in this country is a mess. The public system is laughable compared to what we spend. The college system is a massive bubble right now. It will probably pop in the next 5 to 10 years.

    College is a waste of time for some people. It's not necessarily because of intelligence, but just the environment is not beneficial for everyone. Some would do better in trade schools or entrepreneurship or just flat out learning in the industry.
    toober and A895 like this.
    03-24-2014 06:20 PM
  14. NoYankees44's Avatar
    I don't think the term, "hippy" is really used anymore, but I might be wrong.

    The less you strive for perfection, the farther away you are from it.
    It was the word I felt best described what I was trying to convey, so I used it. You understand what I meant, didn't you?

    If this perfection is even possible to obtain. If it is unobtainable, then is the cost worth what is actually realistic. How far away from the "perfect" world is close enough? What would that world really look like? Would it be something anywhere near what we strive for? What is the ultimate cost?
    03-24-2014 06:43 PM
  15. NoYankees44's Avatar
    I'm not sure if anyone else uses it, but I call my wife and oldest daughter (4yo) hippies all the time. No clue what hippies have to do with sharing or hoarding knowledge.

    XTNiT-1060 through spacetime.
    A hippy society is one that shares everything. There is no division of any kind. Everyone takes equal responsibility for everything good and bad. While it has been know to work in small doses(usually with some division or a loose leadership), it usually falls apart after some portion of the group stops pulling their weight.
    03-24-2014 06:47 PM
  16. Aquila's Avatar
    A hippy society is one that shares everything. There is no division of any kind. Everyone takes equal responsibility for everything good and bad. While it has been know to work in small doses(usually with some division or a loose leadership), it usually falls apart after some portion of the group stops pulling their weight.
    So basic agrarian villages, etc. Yeah, that doesn't scale without full automation

    XTNiT-1060 through spacetime.
    03-24-2014 06:51 PM
  17. palandri's Avatar
    It was the word I felt best described what I was trying to convey, so I used it. You understand what I meant, didn't you?
    LOL! I am old enough to remember the word they used before hippy. Before hippy they used the word, "beatnik"
    msndrstood likes this.
    03-24-2014 07:16 PM
  18. anon8126715's Avatar
    Let me ask you this: Do you think a junky who prefers being strung out on drugs over being a productive citizen belongs in a college setting? Yes, there are some people that don't belong there. There's also plenty of examples of people doing well for themselves without a formal degree (or like me that got a degree in one field, but work in another that's unrelated).
    I find many "junkies" tend to be junkies because they're trying to escape the squalor of their lives. Many homeless alcoholics tend to be former military. I'm thinking if they were better treated for their post war injuries (both physical and mental), then maybe they wouldn't end up as junkies. I honestly believe that people don't just make poor choices to make poor choices, there's something that compelled them to the poor choices they've made.
    palandri, msndrstood and A895 like this.
    03-24-2014 07:48 PM
  19. anon8126715's Avatar
    LOL! I am old enough to remember the word they used before hippy. Before hippy they used the word, "beatnik"

    haha, Now tell us what it was like to visit the old speakeasies.....
    msndrstood, palandri and A895 like this.
    03-24-2014 07:52 PM
  20. palandri's Avatar
    haha, Now tell us what it was like to visit the old speakeasies.....
    You are one cool cat, daddy-o. The cats in here go ape. Big Daddy is from squaresville.
    msndrstood likes this.
    03-24-2014 09:15 PM
  21. Timelessblur's Avatar
    It's not so much flame bait as it is my observation of some of the right wing. Look at Santorum (I hope me posting his name doesn't get me a ban btw... :-p ), he doesn't think college is for everyone and stated on the campaign trail that he doesn't believe everyone should look to get education after high school. Look at the right wing's attempt at skirting science because some of the scientific FINDINGS go against their religious teachings. Then you look at the right's attempts at cutting education or increasing finance rates on student loans. You can't help wonder why the right has a bad track record against education until you equate education and power.
    As much as it pain me to agree with one of the right wing crazies he is right. College is not for everyone. I am in full belief we push college way to hard. It is the other options that do not even really talk about or put out there.
    Their are a lot of 2 year degrees that can get you into middle class right off the bat. Trade schools is another option out there.

    As for knowledge hoarding I try not to minus a select group of people where I work because I have been burned or watch them burn someone. They hoard and then have no issue stabbing you in the back if it gets them one step ahead. So I try to avoid sharing any more than required with them.
    A895 likes this.
    03-25-2014 11:32 AM
  22. toober's Avatar
    Is it considered hoarding information if I have gone above and beyond to obtain the information? I have always been the type person that wants to know everything I can about the job I am doing. I have spent countless hours off the clock after work learning how to operate machinery that I may or may not later be required to work with. I have taught myself how to program and operate CNC saws and earned a promotion when the normal saw operator walked off the job. I spent my own time and money learning to drive a truck to get off the hose of an industrial vacuum truck. I have worked through breaks and lunches to be trained on other machinery in factories where I've worked. I always show up early and leave late to show my employer that I am the best and most deserving when it comes time for my evaluation. Please tell me why I am now the bad guy for holding back some of what I know from the slackers I work with. Why should I spend a single minute on them when they are the last in and the first out? What do I owe them when I have given up so much of myself for the knowledge I hold?
    03-25-2014 04:58 PM
  23. palandri's Avatar
    Is it considered hoarding information if I have gone above and beyond to obtain the information? I have always been the type person that wants to know everything I can about the job I am doing. I have spent countless hours off the clock after work learning how to operate machinery that I may or may not later be required to work with. I have taught myself how to program and operate CNC saws and earned a promotion when the normal saw operator walked off the job. I spent my own time and money learning to drive a truck to get off the hose of an industrial vacuum truck. I have worked through breaks and lunches to be trained on other machinery in factories where I've worked. I always show up early and leave late to show my employer that I am the best and most deserving when it comes time for my evaluation. Please tell me why I am now the bad guy for holding back some of what I know from the slackers I work with. Why should I spend a single minute on them when they are the last in and the first out? What do I owe them when I have given up so much of myself for the knowledge I hold?
    All I can say is WOW!
    03-25-2014 05:30 PM
  24. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Is it considered hoarding information if I have gone above and beyond to obtain the information? I have always been the type person that wants to know everything I can about the job I am doing. I have spent countless hours off the clock after work learning how to operate machinery that I may or may not later be required to work with. I have taught myself how to program and operate CNC saws and earned a promotion when the normal saw operator walked off the job. I spent my own time and money learning to drive a truck to get off the hose of an industrial vacuum truck. I have worked through breaks and lunches to be trained on other machinery in factories where I've worked. I always show up early and leave late to show my employer that I am the best and most deserving when it comes time for my evaluation. Please tell me why I am now the bad guy for holding back some of what I know from the slackers I work with. Why should I spend a single minute on them when they are the last in and the first out? What do I owe them when I have given up so much of myself for the knowledge I hold?
    While not as extreme, I do try to further my education and do pass things along when applicable. In my experience, management sees not only your self learning, but also the willingness to pass it along, which makes you look better for promotions and such. Think about it this way:

    If you're up for promotion, which would look better? Someone that simply knows a lot, or someone that knows a lot and knows how to convey it to others (like the people working under you that need new info for their jobs)? I'm of the mentality that usually the slackers will fail of their own accord even with your help, so don't worry about them somehow getting an unfair edge from your help. Some of them may even appreciate it and return the favor one day.
    A895 likes this.
    03-25-2014 05:38 PM
  25. palandri's Avatar
    While not as extreme, ....
    To put it mildly.
    03-25-2014 05:42 PM
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