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  1. #26  
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    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by toober View Post
    Thank you all for taking the time to explain this, unfortunately, I do not think I will ever completely understand it. While I do think people should be free to accept the employment of their choice, I also feel that the poaching of employees is bad for the businesses. I keep thinking that if it were my business and I had spent my time and energy finding the person I thought would be best in a certain position, I would feel betrayed if they walked in and told me they were going to work for a competitor. Not to mention what they may be taking with them. What if they had written a certain piece of code that was integral to my business? Would they take that with them? Had they developed that code at my expense only to take it to someone else? What if I have invested in their professional development? Will I continually be used as a stepping stone to bigger and better things?

    I know we are supposed to be all about workers rights and against the evil corporations. I can't help thinking while there may not be large companies without the workers that are employed by them, there wouldn't be jobs for those workers without th companies to employ them. It also seems to me that we are running out of jobs much faster than we are running out of workers.
    If I'm the CFO, yeah the ramp up + investment in an employee that jumps ship hurts and it has to be reinvested in someone else. That's why HR and Operations needs to do their stuff correctly, develop the culture and benefits that keep attrition and turnover down, especially in professionals and management. As a manager, I am 100% invested in developing the employee as a person and if that means helping them to find their next opportunity, I hate to see them go but I will help a solid player from my team do it every time. The flip side isn't so much about controlling the costs of that behavior, so much as adding in that I'm also trying to make my team the one that people are wanting to jump into. I hate leafing through resumes and at least 30% of the time, the best fit for the team is going to be the person that calls, "hey, my friend x works for you and they told me about your team and I want to be on it". I can teach technical skills, policies, etc. What I can't teach is the right attitude of a person coming on board. There is a little more to it, you have to have the processing power to tackle some big strategy and numerical concepts, but generally the right attitude is by far the best way to right size someone into the crew.
  2. #27  

    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    I fully expect a company to do what is in it's own best interest. To expect otherwise would be foolish. I know that the person that started the company did so to make a profit. I know that each and every investor put up their money in order to make a profit. Why would anyone expect a company to do something that doesn't in some way make them a profit?

    I also expect people working for a company to do what is best for themselves. I expect a person to know the exact value of their labor and find employment that gives them what they are worth.

    Somewhere between an employer wanting to get the most work for their money and an employee wanting the most money for their work, is a fair market value. This is where wages should be set.
  3. #28  

    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by toober View Post
    Somewhere between an employer wanting to get the most work for their money and an employee wanting the most money for their work, is a fair market value. This is where wages should be set.
    Fair market value doesn't exist when companies limit the options of where employees can offer their services.
    palandri likes this.
  4. #29  

    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by Farish View Post
    Fair market value doesn't exist when companies limit the options of where employees can offer their services.
    It also doesn't exist when workers think they should earn enough to feed a family of four working at McDonalds. Our whole economy is messed up and it's not only the big mean companies to blame.
  5. #30  

    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by toober View Post
    I fully expect a company to do what is in it's own best interest. To expect otherwise would be foolish. I know that the person that started the company did so to make a profit. I know that each and every investor put up their money in order to make a profit. Why would anyone expect a company to do something that doesn't in some way make them a profit?
    Nobody is saying that corporations should not seek to make a profit. Companies are free to pursue capital gains, but you are missing the point. The practices we are talking about in this thread are ILLEGAL.The idea that corporations can do whatever they wish in the name of profit, with no regard for the laws of the land, needs to be eradicated.
  6. #31  

    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by toober View Post
    It also doesn't exist when workers think they should earn enough to feed a family of four working at McDonalds. Our whole economy is messed up and it's not only the big mean companies to blame.
    Different argument.
    This is a case of companies abusing their power to artificially keeping wages lower.
    This is an example of the market not being able to work.

    Your entire argument is basically demand complete loyalty from employees and give none in return.

    The anti poaching also includes not hiring current employees of each others company regardless of interest.

    If people can not switch jobs their pay tends to not increase and to reduces wages for everyone.
    You have not gotten around the fact employees could not switch even if they wanted 2

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
  7. #32  

    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by Timelessblur View Post
    Your entire argument is basically demand complete loyalty from employees and give none in return.
    No, just that employers should be given some consideration and not automatically made to be the bad guys.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timelessblur View Post
    The anti poaching also includes not hiring current employees of each others company regardless of interest.

    If people can not switch jobs their pay tends to not increase and to reduces wages for everyone.
    You have not gotten around the fact employees could not switch even if they wanted 2
    If that is the case, it is wrong of them to do. If a person is wishing to change jobs, they should be free to apply to any company and be given the same consideration as anyone else, no matter their current employer. I still think it is wrong however to solicit employees of a competitor.
  8. #33  

    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by toober View Post
    If that is the case, it is wrong of them to do. If a person is wishing to change jobs, they should be free to apply to any company and be given the same consideration as anyone else, no matter their current employer. I still think it is wrong however to solicit employees of a competitor.
    You need some expertise in an given area your company does not have. You can not advertise for those expertise as it would show your hand? How are you going to get it? Trick is you target the companies with those skills.

    Yes this makes wages go up but at the same time it forces the employer to do the right thing and treat his employees well. It prevents you from underpaying them.
  9. #34  

    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by Timelessblur View Post
    You need some expertise in an given area your company does not have. You can not advertise for those expertise as it would show your hand? How are you going to get it? Trick is you target the companies with those skills.

    Yes this makes wages go up but at the same time it forces the employer to do the right thing and treat his employees well. It prevents you from underpaying them.
    What if it's a small startup that is paying it's employees the best it can? What if my company simply cannot compete with the likes of Google that can sink millions into snatching up my employees and driving my business into the dirt? I guess as long as the worker's pay goes up, it's all good.
  10. #35  

    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by toober View Post
    What if it's a small startup that is paying it's employees the best it can? What if my company simply cannot compete with the likes of Google that can sink millions into snatching up my employees and driving my business into the dirt? I guess as long as the worker's pay goes up, it's all good.
    Thing is they will target only your small start up as they can not go to say apple.

    You are thinking as an employer. Not from employee point of view. Start ups never have been able to compete on wages. They have other things big companies like Google can not offer.

    This is pure wage suppression and a huge example of how the market fails.


    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
  11. #36  

    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by Timelessblur View Post
    You are thinking as an employer.
    I am trying to look at as many sides of the issue as I can. We seem to always elevate the employee, but rarely the employer. Personally, I am thankful that someone was greedy and decided to start the company I work for. Without them and their profit motive, I would not have the job I have now. I am thankful every day for the opportunity to trade my labor for their money and pay for the things I need and want in this life.
  12. #37  

    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by toober View Post
    I am trying to look at as many sides of the issue as I can. We seem to always elevate the employee, but rarely the employer. Personally, I am thankful that someone was greedy and decided to start the company I work for. Without them and their profit motive, I would not have the job I have now. I am thankful every day for the opportunity to trade my labor for their money and pay for the things I need and want in this life.
    Reason to elevate employees is in 99.9% of the time they are the ones getting screwed. I am even more jaded after watching massive layoffs and record profits St the same time. Mix with rather large bonuses for executives.
    This was a case of ending normal flow of worker transferring.
    Mix with wages in that area have been very stagnit for a long time. And some how they claim their is a shortage.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
  13. #38  

    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by Timelessblur View Post
    Reason to elevate employees is in 99.9% of the time they are the ones getting screwed. I am even more jaded after watching massive layoffs and record profits St the same time. Mix with rather large bonuses for executives.
    This was a case of ending normal flow of worker transferring.
    Mix with wages in that area have been very stagnit for a long time. And some how they claim their is a shortage.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
    In this case, I will agree that the companies acted poorly. I think part of my problem is that I have never felt "stuck" in a job. I have always had jobs that I have known and agreed to the pay when I started and left if i felt I was unhappy. I could not imagine being told someone couldn't hire me because I had worked for another place in the past.
  14. #39  
    Aquila's Avatar

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    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by toober View Post
    In this case, I will agree that the companies acted poorly. I think part of my problem is that I have never felt "stuck" in a job. I have always had jobs that I have known and agreed to the pay when I started and left if i felt I was unhappy. I could not imagine being told someone couldn't hire me because I had worked for another place in the past.
    No-competes are fairly common practice while at a company, however professionals, management and c-level personnel are usually the only people impacted by no-competes that extend after the severance of employment and almost all of those have duration limitations on them. For example, the client I work most directly with and I have an unofficial understanding that once my current company finally releases me, I'll likely direct-hire into their logistics leadership team - however, we can't officially have that conversation and they can't consider my resume as long as I'm employed with my current team.

    Google and Apple have very few hourly employees (those that are generally not impacted by no-competes) within the US, as most of their staff are either interns, professionals, management or contracted. That ends up meaning that just about every employee of those two companies (within the states) are bound by rules that probably prohibit them from seeking employment with a competitor or client and would impose sanctions if they were to move to a competitor or client within a specific time frame (usually .25 to 3 years, many use 1 year).

    Having a general unspoken rule about not poaching from other companies is also fairly common, but actually detailing it out and being unwilling to make exceptions is very weird.
  15. #40  

    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Spock View Post
    No-competes are fairly common practice while at a company, however professionals, management and c-level personnel are usually the only people impacted by no-competes that extend after the severance of employment and almost all of those have duration limitations on them. For example, the client I work most directly with and I have an unofficial understanding that once my current company finally releases me, I'll likely direct-hire into their logistics leadership team - however, we can't officially have that conversation and they can't consider my resume as long as I'm employed with my current team.

    Google and Apple have very few hourly employees (those that are generally not impacted by no-competes) within the US, as most of their staff are either interns, professionals, management or contracted. That ends up meaning that just about every employee of those two companies (within the states) are bound by rules that probably prohibit them from seeking employment with a competitor or client and would impose sanctions if they were to move to a competitor or client within a specific time frame (usually .25 to 3 years, many use 1 year).

    Having a general unspoken rule about not poaching from other companies is also fairly common, but actually detailing it out and being unwilling to make exceptions is very weird.
    Could you expand on, "...once my current company finally releases me...". Are you under a contract or termination at will?
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