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    Default Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Apple and Google in wage-fixing storm as leaked emails appear to show top execs agreeing not to hire from each other - News - Gadgets & Tech - The Independent

    Basically Google, Apple, and possibly other tech companies made deals not to attempt to "poach" each other's employees. This effectively works against the way the job market is supposed to work and keeps wages lower by preventing competition for employees. AKA massive compliance issue. I am very disappointed in all involved with this. Dont Be Evil Google
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    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by NoYankees44 View Post
    Apple and Google in wage-fixing storm as leaked emails appear to show top execs agreeing not to hire from each other - News - Gadgets & Tech - The Independent

    Basically Google, Apple, and possibly other tech companies made deals not to attempt to "poach" each other's employees. This effectively works against the way the job market is supposed to work and keeps wages lower by preventing competition for employees. AKA massive compliance issue. I am very disappointed in all involved with this. Dont Be Evil Google

    ...and this somehow surprises you? Keynesian Economics died years ago.

    Wouldn't the normal right wing response be, don't you worry about or stick your nose into what Google and Apple are doing, worry about what NoYankees44 is doing?
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  3. Thread Author  Thread Author    #3  
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    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    ...and this somehow surprises you? Keynesian Economics died years ago.

    Wouldn't the normal right wing response be, don't you worry about or stick your nose into what Google and Apple are doing, worry about what NoYankees44 is doing?
    Wouldn't the left wing response be for the government to set the wages and completely abolish the free market? Just because you feel the need to lump yourself and others into a categories does not mean we all think in absolutes.

    Compliance issues are something completely different. Like a monopoly, they inhibit the free market from working. Government should protect the free market, not manipulate it as ours has the habit of doing. Compliance is something that will always have to be kept in check. It is far to easy to create issues even with non malicious intentions. It is a huge problem in every industry. I guess I expected more of Google. It does not surprise me, but I hoped for better.
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  4. #4  

    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by NoYankees44 View Post
    Wouldn't the left wing response be for the government to set the wages and completely abolish the free market? Just because you feel the need to lump yourself and others into a categories does not mean we all think in absolutes.
    No, the left would say basically what you said, which is why we need regulations and compliance with regulations, but I am pretty sure the right would say what I said above about minding your own business.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoYankees44 View Post
    Compliance issues are something completely different. Like a monopoly, they inhibit the free market from working. Government should protect the free market, not manipulate it as ours has the habit of doing. Compliance is something that will always have to be kept in check. It is far to easy to create issues even with non malicious intentions. It is a huge problem in every industry. I guess I expected more of Google. It does not surprise me, but I hoped for better.
    Compliance issues are regulations issues which the right wing says is hampering growth and prosperity for all in the business sector.
  5. #5  
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    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by NoYankees44 View Post
    Apple and Google in wage-fixing storm as leaked emails appear to show top execs agreeing not to hire from each other - News - Gadgets & Tech - The Independent

    Basically Google, Apple, and possibly other tech companies made deals not to attempt to "poach" each other's employees. This effectively works against the way the job market is supposed to work and keeps wages lower by preventing competition for employees. AKA massive compliance issue. I am very disappointed in all involved with this. Dont Be Evil Google
    Not uncommon in that business or others. You've never heard of a non competition clause? Not surprising in the least.

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    What?!...I'm msndrstood.

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    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    No, the left would say basically what you said, which is why we need regulations and compliance with regulations, but I am pretty sure the right would say what I said above about minding your own business.



    Compliance issues are regulations issues which the right wing says is hampering growth and prosperity for all in the business sector.
    Well personally I don't care too much for what the "right" or the "left" says.

    And general regulation reduction is a completely different issue than compliance issues specifically. The removal of red tape and added expense is always attractive when the option is practical. More red tape should only be used as sparingly as possible.
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  7. Thread Author  Thread Author    #7  
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    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by msndrstood View Post
    Not uncommon in that business or others. You've never heard of a non competition clause? Not surprising in the least.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    A noncompeditive clause is a completely different issue than compliance issue. These companies agreed not to compete for employees and even directly compared payrolls and fixed wages.


    I deal with the threat of compliance issues every week in my job. I do not really expect people that have not dealt with these laws to truly understand the gravity of the situation. It is a huge issue in every industry. And it has lots of Grey area followed by sharp cliffs. There are several instances where it is not hard for someone to unintentionally get into a lot of trouble very quickly. There are also very cut and dry instances like this one where there is a clear right and wrong.
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  8. #8  

    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by NoYankees44 View Post
    A noncompeditive clause is a completely different issue than compliance issue. These companies agreed not to compete for employees and even directly compared payrolls and fixed wages....
    Not really. It does the same thing which you argued against in the thesis of your thread here.
  9. #9  

    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Personally I think all those companies need a massive fine slapped on them. The fine being a multiplier of Max potential savings they got by keeping the wage down. Reason is make it crystal clear that you will not save any money by doing this crap. It will cost you money. On top of that the employees get an immediate payment of back wages.

    Anyone who works in the technology field should be outraged by this bs regardless of who you work for as the crap by these players suppressed your wage nation wide. When the big guys reduce wages like this it effects them every where.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
    Until proven otherwise the so called "Google Update Alliances" is dead and was just empty promises and words. One has to look no father than the pathetic and slow update process of ICS on all the manufactures and carriers. We should all be asking the question about updates and the so called Update Alliances ever chance we get.
  10. Thread Author  Thread Author    #10  
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    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Not really. It does the same thing which you argued against in the thesis of your thread here.
    While it arguably has the same effect, it does not keep the market from working. Employees agree to the noncompeditive clause. It is not uncommon for competitors to stipend employees for the duration of the clause as long as they leave their employer and work for them afterwards. Under these compliance issues, that never has an opportunity to happen. If you read the article, Apple and Google even directly compared apy scales.
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  11. #11  

    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by NoYankees44 View Post
    .... If you read the article, Apple and Google even directly compared apy scales.
    I hear you. To be honest, I really don't disagree with your thought process here, and what you're saying, so it's probably time to sit down and have a beer.

    The whole point about Apple and Google sitting down and comparing pay scales is really null and void to me. Either company can do a market study, read a resume, search the internet to find out what the other is paying.

    Also to say an employee agrees to a non-compete agreement is pushing it. It's more or less a condition of employment. If you don't sign this you won't have a job.
  12. Thread Author  Thread Author    #12  
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    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    I hear you. To be honest, I really don't disagree with your thought process here, and what you're saying, so it's probably time to sit down and have a beer.

    The whole point about Apple and Google sitting down and comparing pay scales is really null and void to me. Either company can do a market study, read a resume, search the internet to find out what the other is paying.

    Also to say an employee agrees to a non-compete agreement is pushing it. It's more or less a condition of employment. If you don't sign this you won't have a job.
    First rounds on you ;-)

    Every company researches the market to stay competitive. Comparing pay scales is not inherently an issue. Agreeing to both keep the same pay scale is.

    My experience is more on the product/contracting side of compliance laws, which are more or less geared towards protecting the consumer. I do not ever directly hire anyone, so I do not have to be familiar with employee side of compliance farther than how it effects me.
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  13. #13  

    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    The arrogance of Corporations never ceases to amaze me. This goes way beyond just Google and Apple.

    How Google, Apple & The Biggest Tech Companies Colluded to Fix Workers' Wages
  14. #14  

    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Maybe Apple and Google employees should unionize eh? Oh right, unions bad...grr bad grrr.....
  15. #15  

    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by oz123 View Post
    The arrogance of Corporations never ceases to amaze me. This goes way beyond just Google and Apple.

    How Google, Apple & The Biggest Tech Companies Colluded to Fix Workers' Wages
    I, you know, tried to, you know, read that article, you know, but, you know, just, you know, couldn't, you know, get through it, you know, for some reason.
  16. #16  

    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by toober View Post
    I, you know, tried to, you know, read that article, you know, but, you know, just, you know, couldn't, you know, get through it, you know, for some reason.
    You read the article? I watched the video, there were no "you know's" in the actual interview. Seems as though grammar is a more important issue to you than corporate collusion?
    Last edited by oz123; 03-27-2014 at 08:30 PM.
  17. #17  

    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by oz123 View Post
    You read the article? I watched the video, there were no "you know's" in the actual interview. Seems grammar is a more important issue to you than corporate collusion?
    What is important is that the person have a well thought out argument and state it clearly. If a person cannot be bothered to put some time into forming a coherent thought, why should I be bothered by taking the time from my life to listen to it? When I hear someone in an interview start using words or phrases such as "umm" or"you know", I stop listening. It is also the same when someone that is normally well spoken starts stuttering and stammering. To me, it sounds like they are either unsure of their position or outright lying.

    As for these companies getting together and deciding not to poach one another's employees, I could care less as long as they provide me with the products and services I want at a price I am willing to pay. If their workers don't like what they do, they are free as adults to find work elsewhere. It's not like we're talking about a 10 year old in a Chinese factory working 16 hours a day for pennies.
    Tall Mike 2145 likes this.
  18. #18  

    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    FYI, in California, non compete clauses are not binding when it comes to employees.

    Conveniently the exact same state which both those companies are headquartered and 90 percent of their talent is located.
  19. #19  

    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by toober View Post
    What is important is that the person have a well thought out argument and state it clearly. If a person cannot be bothered to put some time into forming a coherent thought, why should I be bothered by taking the time from my life to listen to it? When I hear someone in an interview start using words or phrases such as "umm" or"you know", I stop listening. It is also the same when someone that is normally well spoken starts stuttering and stammering. To me, it sounds like they are either unsure of their position or outright lying.

    As for these companies getting together and deciding not to poach one another's employees, I could care less as long as they provide me with the products and services I want at a price I am willing to pay. If their workers don't like what they do, they are free as adults to find work elsewhere. It's not like we're talking about a 10 year old in a Chinese factory working 16 hours a day for pennies.
    And you clearly do not get it or why this is wrong. What you do not get is they are NOT FREE to go else where. The anti poaching went beyond that. It means if I worked at Google I could not go work at Apple as Apple would not hire me because I worked at Google. On top of that they shared waged data and agreed to keep them down. This hurts and entire career field no matter what company you wanted to work for. Big players like the ones in the agreement tend to set what the market price will be and they artificially suppressed the price. They need to fry big time for this. THey need to loose a lot more money than they ever saved. Hell I am in full support of them being made a massive example out of so no one even thinks about doing this again.

    This was screwing over the workers. You do not seem to care as you stupidly think it does not effect you. If you work in IT this screwed you over big time as it artificially suppressed wages nationwide. This is went the market fails not helps.
    It would be like having all the big telecoms agree to raises prices on everyone. Also agree not to poach anyone. It basically would mean they artificially raises prices and remove the market from controlling them.
    Until proven otherwise the so called "Google Update Alliances" is dead and was just empty promises and words. One has to look no father than the pathetic and slow update process of ICS on all the manufactures and carriers. We should all be asking the question about updates and the so called Update Alliances ever chance we get.
    palandri and oz123 like this.
  20. #20  

    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by toober View Post
    What is important is that the person have a well thought out argument and state it clearly. If a person cannot be bothered to put some time into forming a coherent thought, why should I be bothered by taking the time from my life to listen to it? When I hear someone in an interview start using words or phrases such as "umm" or"you know", I stop listening. It is also the same when someone that is normally well spoken starts stuttering and stammering. To me, it sounds like they are either unsure of their position or outright lying.
    Here is a link to the original article, maybe if you take the time to actually read it, you will get a clearer picture of the issues involved.

    Revealed: Apple and Google’s wage-fixing cartel involved dozens more companies, over one million employees | PandoDaily
    Last edited by oz123; 03-28-2014 at 09:29 AM.
    palandri likes this.
  21. #21  

    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by oz123 View Post
    Here is a link to the original article, maybe if you take the time to actually read it, you will get a clearer picture of the issues involved.

    Revealed: Apple and Google’s wage-fixing cartel involved dozens more companies, over one million employees | PandoDaily
    Ok, from what I read, Company A called an employee of Company B and offered them a job. Company B called Company A and said "stop calling my people and I'll not call yours". I didn't see where they had agreed not to accept applications or resumes sent from the employees. While there is probably much I am missing, I would think it common courtesy for one company not to solicit workers from another. If I owned a supermarket, I would be very insulted if I found out a competing supermarket had called one of my cashiers. Like I said, I may be missing something but I don't see what's wrong.
  22. #22  

    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by toober View Post
    Ok, from what I read, Company A called an employee of Company B and offered them a job. Company B called Company A and said "stop calling my people and I'll not call yours". I didn't see where they had agreed not to accept applications or resumes sent from the employees. While there is probably much I am missing, I would think it common courtesy for one company not to solicit workers from another. If I owned a supermarket, I would be very insulted if I found out a competing supermarket had called one of my cashiers. Like I said, I may be missing something but I don't see what's wrong.
    Yes their is a lot more you are missing.
    Apple threated Palm with patent law suits unless they agreed.
    The Palm CEO said no, followed by telling Steve Jobs that what he was requesting was unethical and more than likely illegal.
    That was among the many smoking guns here.

    Also a lot of jobs you only find out about them threw being tried to be poach. If you are looking for a job it is a good chance that your current employer will find out about it and it also limits your ability to find one. Also the cold calling is how you fill secret projects. An example would be Apple iPhone project before they announce it. They could not really post job listing for it as it would be found out quickly. You can not go internal for expertise as you would have none. You have to hire out and only way to do that is poach.

    You do not see this at low level but in software a lot of times you need knowledge and it is not like there are a lot of people who have that knowledge and the skill set. Over all their is a shortage but wages are kept down for multiple reasons. This is just one of them.

    It would found out that HR was directed not to hire and ignore applications from the other company.
    Until proven otherwise the so called "Google Update Alliances" is dead and was just empty promises and words. One has to look no father than the pathetic and slow update process of ICS on all the manufactures and carriers. We should all be asking the question about updates and the so called Update Alliances ever chance we get.
  23. #23  

    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by toober View Post
    Ok, from what I read, Company A called an employee of Company B and offered them a job. Company B called Company A and said "stop calling my people and I'll not call yours". I didn't see where they had agreed not to accept applications or resumes sent from the employees. While there is probably much I am missing, I would think it common courtesy for one company not to solicit workers from another. If I owned a supermarket, I would be very insulted if I found out a competing supermarket had called one of my cashiers. Like I said, I may be missing something but I don't see what's wrong.
    The U.S. DOJ has a different opinion on this matter


    .USDOJ: Justice Department Requires Six High Tech Companies to Stop Entering into Anticompetitive Employee Solicitation Agreements

    USDOJ: Antitrust Division Antitrust Laws and You
    Last edited by oz123; 03-28-2014 at 06:00 PM.
  24. #24  

    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Thank you all for taking the time to explain this, unfortunately, I do not think I will ever completely understand it. While I do think people should be free to accept the employment of their choice, I also feel that the poaching of employees is bad for the businesses. I keep thinking that if it were my business and I had spent my time and energy finding the person I thought would be best in a certain position, I would feel betrayed if they walked in and told me they were going to work for a competitor. Not to mention what they may be taking with them. What if they had written a certain piece of code that was integral to my business? Would they take that with them? Had they developed that code at my expense only to take it to someone else? What if I have invested in their professional development? Will I continually be used as a stepping stone to bigger and better things?

    I know we are supposed to be all about workers rights and against the evil corporations. I can't help thinking while there may not be large companies without the workers that are employed by them, there wouldn't be jobs for those workers without th companies to employ them. It also seems to me that we are running out of jobs much faster than we are running out of workers.
  25. #25  

    Default Re: Google, Apple, and others Wage-Fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by toober View Post
    Thank you all for taking the time to explain this, unfortunately, I do not think I will ever completely understand it. While I do think people should be free to accept the employment of their choice, I also feel that the poaching of employees is bad for the businesses. I keep thinking that if it were my business and I had spent my time and energy finding the person I thought would be best in a certain position, I would feel betrayed if they walked in and told me they were going to work for a competitor. Not to mention what they may be taking with them. What if they had written a certain piece of code that was integral to my business? Would they take that with them? Had they developed that code at my expense only to take it to someone else? What if I have invested in their professional development? Will I continually be used as a stepping stone to bigger and better things?

    I know we are supposed to be all about workers rights and against the evil corporations. I can't help thinking while there may not be large companies without the workers that are employed by them, there wouldn't be jobs for those workers without th companies to employ them. It also seems to me that we are running out of jobs much faster than we are running out of workers.

    The catch is the threat of poaching means you have to be willing to pay your employees better. You spent the time and energy to find them. On the flip side they are spending their time and energy working for you. You are looking at it from the point of the employer. The employer wants complete loyalty from the employee but they (employer) would drop them if it meant you could make more profit.

    Why should I as the employee give you my complete loyalty if you are willing to drop me if it means you make more profit. The threat of poaching keeps you honest and have to treat me well.

    I used to think otherwise until I got screwed by the fact that the company I worked for saw they could make more profit. lied to their employees telling us everything was great. They turned around and laid off a lot of us and had a record year. This changed my view that like the company caring about themselves, I look out for myself first just as the company does. Now as long as the companies goals and my goals do not conflict and help eachother we are good. But if my goals conflict with your goals then we have a problem.

    The poaching also means you can not under pay me. It means you need to keep up.
    Until proven otherwise the so called "Google Update Alliances" is dead and was just empty promises and words. One has to look no father than the pathetic and slow update process of ICS on all the manufactures and carriers. We should all be asking the question about updates and the so called Update Alliances ever chance we get.
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