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    Question Supreme Court allows prayer at a City Council meeting

    Even though this section appears to be rather dead (a shame since it's always nice to read someone else's take on events that affect us in the same manner), I did want to see what kind of opinions my fellow android members have on this decision.

    Below is the article from the LA Times (I'm not sure if they're part of the "liberal media" that people on the right seem to insist permeates most of the media out there, but it was the first hit I saw on Google).

    Prayer case divides Supreme Court justices along religious lines*-*Los Angeles Times

    The argument of the 5 conservative supreme court justices is that if you don't affiliate with the prayer that's taking place, then you should just leave or ignore it. I find it funny how that approach wasn't taken into account when a Mosque "Activity Center" was to be built a few blocks from the 9/11 site in NYC. I'm not sure where we stand with the whole "Separation of Church and State", but I think this decision is a blow to that ideology. I wonder how the founders of this country would react to these types of rulings.
  2. #2  

    Default Re: Supreme Court allows prayer at a City Council meeting

    There goes evolutionary biology down the drain.
  3. #3  
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    Default Re: Supreme Court allows prayer at a City Council meeting

    Is all fun and games until a Muslim breaks out the prayer rug at the beginning of a town hall meeting.

    I'd almost pay to see that. 😊

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    Default Re: Supreme Court allows prayer at a City Council meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by msndrstood View Post
    Is all fun and games until a Muslim breaks out the prayer rug at the beginning of a town hall meeting.

    I'd almost pay to see that. ��

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    I can already see the anger and the protest generated by Fox News. One of the ladies that brought on the lawsuit was Jewish, I personally think she should try to get a Rabbi to perform a prayer at her next city council meeting.
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    Default Re: Supreme Court allows prayer at a City Council meeting

    Let us take a look at what the constitution has to say on the matter:
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
    Many use this as their argument for the so-called separation of church and state, but fail to realize that this amendment only refers to what congress cannot do. There is nothing in the first amendment, or anywhere else in the constitution for that matter, banning state or local governments from endorsing a religion. The founders were placing restrictions on the federal government, not the states.
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    msndrstood's Avatar

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    Default Re: Supreme Court allows prayer at a City Council meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by TXGTOU View Post
    I can already see the anger and the protest generated by Fox News. One of the ladies that brought on the lawsuit was Jewish, I personally think she should try to get a Rabbi to perform a prayer at her next city council meeting.
    Free speech is free speech for all. This could get interesting.

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    Default Re: Supreme Court allows prayer at a City Council meeting

    Its Muslims against Christians and I am so sick of it. I am not religious and I'm sick of hearing how were violating their rights simply because I don't believe in what they want me to.

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    Default Re: Supreme Court allows prayer at a City Council meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by toober View Post
    Let us take a look at what the constitution has to say on the matter:

    “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

    Many use this as their argument for the so-called separation of church and state, but fail to realize that this amendment only refers to what congress cannot do. There is nothing in the first amendment, or anywhere else in the constitution for that matter, banning state or local governments from endorsing a religion. The founders were placing restrictions on the federal government, not the states.
    Your comments were more or less correct until about 1925. That position was fully overturned in 1947 when the Establishment clause was Incorporated. It was the second to last clause to be Incorporated, however for the last 56 years the entire First Amendment has been Incorporated.

    Incorporating is the Process by which the courts apply the Bill of Rights to the States. The Incorporation Doctrine makes amendments 1 through 8 applicable to State and Local governments. 9 and 10 are not covered because they are already on point discussing the role of Federal to State powers, etc. The last Right incorporated was the Right to Bear Arms (in 2010) which applied the same injunction that restrains the Federal Government to the State and Local governments. This was done through the exact same mechanism that Incorporated the Establishment clause 67 years ago.

    Here's the SCOTUS decision that defined the relationship of the States and the Federal governments on the establishment of religion:

    "The "establishment of religion" clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a State nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion to another ... in the words of Jefferson, the [First Amendment] clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between church and State' ... That wall must be kept high and impregnable. We could not approve the slightest breach.”

    This is referencing Jefferson’s own remarks:

    "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

    Rather than the “wall” metaphor, James Madison (who wrote the First Amendment) referred to it as “a great barrier”.
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    Default Re: Supreme Court allows prayer at a City Council meeting

    Here's my most recent statement on the forceful application of religious beliefs/practices upon citizens (it was originally specifically regarding schools, but it still translates):

    “Public Spaces: Removing religious paraphernalia from public spaces is not the same thing as banning a religion nor from prohibiting individuals to from practicing their own religion. What it is the same thing as is removing a state endorsement of those religions. As the courthouse is not a person, it has no religion to practice and it has no rights to practice religion that are infringed upon by the removal of the imposition of the trappings theocratic rule.
    If you want to stop on the sidewalk and pray, go for it, do you, have a great time. I may even stop and pray with you. If you want to hand out literature about your faith in the park, cool beans dude, do it up. If you choose to buy a billboard and advertise whatever you want, okay.. you and the owner of the billboard have a deal, not my business. If you want to put your nativity scene in your yard, no one should object to that. If you want to try to indoctrinate children in an educational setting where they are supposed to be trusting in the integrity and good will of the educators who have a responsibility to the students and the community to not let their personal beliefs interfere with the passing on and expansion of knowledge and critical thinking capabilities.. yes, we have a problem.



    The founders were quite clear about the separation of church and state and they are meant to protect each side from the other, not one direction in either one's favor.”

    Replace educators/education with legislators/policy and replace children with citizens and the rest still holds.

    Another way to look at it from another recent case, would you rather have governments expel religious influence or invite displays for and speeches from proponents of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Church of satan and/or the thousands of iterations of each of the 20-30 major world religions? Do we really have time for 30,000 speeches prior to any business being conducted? Do we have resources to build space to accommodate all of the shrines and statues and artwork and whatnot that people may want to force upon their citizenship if these floodgates aren't closed? We're about to have a giant satanic statue on the yard of a courthouse somewhere in Oklahoma because of this? Does that make sense? Or would it be easier to just not display the ten commandments? Same issue, it may be more complicated than just pragmatism about the sheer number of different faiths that must receive equal opportunity for public support if any are given but saying, "zero" is a pretty easy line to define.
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  10. Thread Author  Thread Author    #10  

    Default Re: Supreme Court allows prayer at a City Council meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Spock View Post
    Here's my most recent statement on the forceful application of religious beliefs/practices upon citizens (it was originally specifically regarding schools, but it still translates):

    “Public Spaces: Removing religious paraphernalia from public spaces is not the same thing as banning a religion nor from prohibiting individuals to from practicing their own religion. What it is the same thing as is removing a state endorsement of those religions. As the courthouse is not a person, it has no religion to practice and it has no rights to practice religion that are infringed upon by the removal of the imposition of the trappings theocratic rule.
    If you want to stop on the sidewalk and pray, go for it, do you, have a great time. I may even stop and pray with you. If you want to hand out literature about your faith in the park, cool beans dude, do it up. If you choose to buy a billboard and advertise whatever you want, okay.. you and the owner of the billboard have a deal, not my business. If you want to put your nativity scene in your yard, no one should object to that. If you want to try to indoctrinate children in an educational setting where they are supposed to be trusting in the integrity and good will of the educators who have a responsibility to the students and the community to not let their personal beliefs interfere with the passing on and expansion of knowledge and critical thinking capabilities.. yes, we have a problem.



    The founders were quite clear about the separation of church and state and they are meant to protect each side from the other, not one direction in either one's favor.”

    Replace educators/education with legislators/policy and replace children with citizens and the rest still holds.

    Another way to look at it from another recent case, would you rather have governments expel religious influence or invite displays for and speeches from proponents of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Church of satan and/or the thousands of iterations of each of the 20-30 major world religions? Do we really have time for 30,000 speeches prior to any business being conducted? Do we have resources to build space to accommodate all of the shrines and statues and artwork and whatnot that people may want to force upon their citizenship if these floodgates aren't closed? We're about to have a giant satanic statue on the yard of a courthouse somewhere in Oklahoma because of this? Does that make sense? Or would it be easier to just not display the ten commandments? Same issue, it may be more complicated than just pragmatism about the sheer number of different faiths that must receive equal opportunity for public support if any are given but saying, "zero" is a pretty easy line to define.
    Have you ever considered applying for a position with the Supreme Court?

    This can't be stated enough, if you make accommodations for one religion, then you either need to make accommodations for ALL religions or not make those accommodations for any religion. Governments (at any level) should not be in the business of promoting one religion over another. All it does is creates contempt and division.

    What I found most disturbing was the Chief Justices that said you could remove yourself if you found the prayer offensive. They missed the mark, it's as if they are practicing activism and not judicial review.
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    Default Re: Supreme Court allows prayer at a City Council meeting

    Well is seems all the good points were made already. Here I was getting ready to type up a long one.

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    Default Re: Supreme Court allows prayer at a City Council meeting

    What is true in one persons religious beliefs may not be true in another persons religious beliefs, so how can one find truth through religious beliefs? Just look at all the different sects of Christianity. Some play with snakes, some refuse to use electricity, some refuse to use birth control, some refuse to use alcohol, some have multiple wives...etc...
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    Default Re: Supreme Court allows prayer at a City Council meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by A895 View Post
    Well is seems all the good points were made already. Here I was getting ready to type up a long one.

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    Default Re: Supreme Court allows prayer at a City Council meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    What is true in one persons religious beliefs may not be true in another persons religious beliefs, so how can one find truth through religious beliefs? Just look at all the different sects of Christianity. Some play with snakes, some refuse to use electricity, some refuse to use birth control, some refuse to use alcohol, some have multiple wives...etc...
    Every religion attempts to answer the question of our existence. Each doctrine is developed using events, experiences, and fundamental rules that are valued by those that right them.

    Some do not recognize events as happening or do not find value in the rules that others do. Some see morality in a completely different ways just like some see the purpose of mankind in completely different ways. Just like every person is different, every society and ground of people are different and find different answers to questions.

    This all leads to discrepancies and disagreements. People are not perfect and no religion that I know of claims to be. Just like there will always be wide discrepancies in science and every other topic, there will be discrepancies in religion.
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    Default Re: Supreme Court allows prayer at a City Council meeting

    The debate in this case seems to have been less about the inclusion of the prayer, and more about the language in the prayers. The court seemed to decide that they were not going to dictate what can and cannot be said in prayers. To rule otherwise would have been ridiculous. There is no such thing as an ambiguous prayer.


    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
    Prayer of any kind at any government meeting does not violate the first amendment. The Government can not legislate favoritism towards any established religion or allow itself to be controlled by a religions organization. Reading it explicitly, one could conclude that a courthouse could cover itself in religions references and not violate the first amendment. You can argue this amendment intended more, but the language is not there to explicitly deny any sort of practice.
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    Default Re: Supreme Court allows prayer at a City Council meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by NoYankees44 View Post
    Every religion attempts to answer the question of our existence. Each doctrine is developed using events, experiences, and fundamental rules that are valued by those that right them.

    Some do not recognize events as happening or do not find value in the rules that others do. Some see morality in a completely different ways just like some see the purpose of mankind in completely different ways. Just like every person is different, every society and ground of people are different and find different answers to questions.

    This all leads to discrepancies and disagreements. People are not perfect and no religion that I know of claims to be. Just like there will always be wide discrepancies in science and every other topic, there will be discrepancies in religion.
    I said my piece. I know religion is a very important issue to some people. I normally steer about 100 miles away from religion threads. I won't try and stuff evolutionary biology or the big bang down anyone's throat as long as they don't try to stuff religion down my throat.

    Over and out.
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    Default Re: Supreme Court allows prayer at a City Council meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    I said my piece. I know religion is a very important issue to some people. I normally stir about 100 miles away from religion threads. I won't try and stuff evolutionary biology or the big bang down anyone's throat as long as they don't try to stuff religion down my throat.

    Over and out.
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  18. Thread Author  Thread Author    #18  

    Default Re: Supreme Court allows prayer at a City Council meeting

    What's ironic about it is the word "Community" looks to be made up of two words, "common" and "unity". I've found the best communities have a certain level of tolerance and inclusion.
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    Default Re: Supreme Court allows prayer at a City Council meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by TXGTOU View Post
    What's ironic about it is the word "Community" looks to be made up of two words, "common" and "unity". I've found the best communities have a certain level of tolerance and inclusion.
    I'm sorry but "it makes me feel uncomfortable" is rarely, if ever, a good excuse to do or not do anything. I see and here things every day that make me feel uncomfortable, many times by elected officials, but you don't see me complaining about it. I ignore it and go on. Many things are offensive to people. I do not understand why religion is in a separate, special category all to itself.

    If having to listen to someone say something you don't believe in a government setting is unreasonable, then I am going to sue all of Washington DC. Lord only knows I am forced to listen to them say things I don't believe in all the time.
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    Default Re: Supreme Court allows prayer at a City Council meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by NoYankees44 View Post
    I'm sorry but "it makes me feel uncomfortable" is rarely, if ever, a good excuse to do or not do anything. I see and here things every day that make me feel uncomfortable, many times by elected officials, but you don't see me complaining about it. I ignore it and go on. Many things are offensive to people. I do not understand why religion is in a separate, special category all to itself.

    If having to listen to someone say something you don't believe in a government setting is unreasonable, then I am going to sue all of Washington DC. Lord only knows I am forced to listen to them say things I don't believe in all the time.

    The only problem I have with the judgment is would the judgment be the same if the religion was Islamic? I sometimes wonder if it would be a good idea to create a religion that doesn't subscribe to some of the fairy tale books, or some of the other nonsense, where the focus is trying to improve all facets of mankind's existence on this delicate planet (without being too hippy-ish).
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    Default Re: Supreme Court allows prayer at a City Council meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by TXGTOU View Post
    The only problem I have with the judgment is would the judgment be the same if the religion was Islamic? I sometimes wonder if it would be a good idea to create a religion that doesn't subscribe to some of the fairy tale books, or some of the other nonsense, where the focus is trying to improve all facets of mankind's existence on this delicate planet (without being too hippy-ish).
    It would not bother me personally, but would the court's decision be different? Idk. It's an interesting question.

    Imo Christianity generally fits that description as long as you don't consider the Bible as a fairy tale book. I am not very knowledgeable on such things, but Buddhism and Native American religions would as well I believe.
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    Default Re: Supreme Court allows prayer at a City Council meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by NoYankees44 View Post
    It would not bother me personally, but would the court's decision be different? Idk. It's an interesting question.

    Imo Christianity generally fits that description as long as you don't consider the Bible as a fairy tale book. I am not very knowledgeable on such things, but Buddhism and Native American religions would as well I believe.
    I guess you can say most religions have that component to them, but then get twisted and corrupted by entities trying to use them for their own twisted agenda.
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    Default Re: Supreme Court allows prayer at a City Council meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by TXGTOU View Post
    I guess you can say most religions have that component to them, but then get twisted and corrupted by entities trying to use them for their own twisted agenda.
    Like everything... Nothing is without corruption.
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  24. #24  

    Default Re: Supreme Court allows prayer at a City Council meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by NoYankees44 View Post
    Like everything... Nothing is without corruption.
    Not even the kids little league, I know there is a kid out there getting paid in junk food to throw baseball games. I am corruption free however, I think, possibly, mostly, maybe, Idk, I do know however that corruption seems to happen more often than when it comes to beliefs. I don't if beliefs in themselves are so vulnerable or do people with beliefs have morals that can be changed with the right incentive? But a definition like that can cover a lot of people regardless of belief.
  25. #25  

    Default Re: Supreme Court allows prayer at a City Council meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by TXGTOU View Post
    I can already see the anger and the protest generated by Fox News. One of the ladies that brought on the lawsuit was Jewish, I personally think she should try to get a Rabbi to perform a prayer at her next city council meeting.
    she would have a massive case if the city denied the Rabbi. If I remember correctly the ruling is based it is allowed as long as the process has no religous undertone.
    Hell I would say get a Satin worshiper to lead a pray for that reason.
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