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  1. Thread Author  Thread Author    #1  

    Default Why we need the FDA and USDA

    Plea deal calls for egg company to pay $6.8M fine for mislabeling, bribery, tainted products

    Plea deal calls for egg company to pay $6.8M fine for mislabeling, bribery, tainted products | Star Tribune
  2. #2  

    Default Re: Why we need the FDA and USDA

    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Plea deal calls for egg company to pay $6.8M fine for mislabeling, bribery, tainted products

    Plea deal calls for egg company to pay $6.8M fine for mislabeling, bribery, tainted products | Star Tribune
    Yep, without the USDA around, who would have taken the bribes.
  3. #3  

    Default Re: Why we need the FDA and USDA

    There's a 3rd one that we need, umm umm I can't remember the name ummm ummm....

    Why we need the FDA and USDA-screen-shot-2011-08-17-2.26.46-pm-e1313605679792.png
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  4. #4  

    Default Re: Why we need the FDA and USDA

    I hope everyone's enjoying their eggs for breakfast this morning......
  5. #5  

    Default Re: Why we need the FDA and USDA

    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Plea deal calls for egg company to pay $6.8M fine for mislabeling, bribery, tainted products
    We've always needed the FDA and USDA, but I don't think people want to pay for their services. We're always trying to make government smaller. The result is that there's not enough inspectors to handle the workload.
  6. #6  

    Default Re: Why we need the FDA and USDA

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott7217 View Post
    We've always needed the FDA and USDA, but I don't think people want to pay for their services. We're always trying to make government smaller. The result is that there's not enough inspectors to handle the workload.
    It's not just making the government smaller, it's also moving the powers back to the states instead of the federal power grabs. I would agree that these two agencies should have federal oversight at least (even if ran by the individual states) so there's one set of guidelines for foods no matter where they are produced since they are distributed across state lines. The conundrum is it can be debated if the feds can simply use the commerce clause for this or if there should be an actual constitutional amendment to make sure the agencies rightfully exist at the federal level.
  7. #7  

    Default Re: Why we need the FDA and USDA

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    It's not just making the government smaller, it's also moving the powers back to the states instead of the federal power grabs. I would agree that these two agencies should have federal oversight at least (even if ran by the individual states) so there's one set of guidelines for foods no matter where they are produced since they are distributed across state lines. The conundrum is it can be debated if the feds can simply use the commerce clause for this or if there should be an actual constitutional amendment to make sure the agencies rightfully exist at the federal level.
    I don't know if letting the states manage certain aspects of commerce would be a good idea. I can only imagine the nightmare involved if we had to have different certifications and regulatory paperwork across state lines. I'd rather the federal government standardize air quality, food/water quality etc. It just makes more sense to have one large regulatory body instead of a regulatory body for each state that companies had to customize their practices in order to do commerce in each state.
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  8. #8  

    Default Re: Why we need the FDA and USDA

    Quote Originally Posted by TXGTOU View Post
    I don't know if letting the states manage certain aspects of commerce would be a good idea. I can only imagine the nightmare involved if we had to have different certifications and regulatory paperwork across state lines. I'd rather the federal government standardize air quality, food/water quality etc. It just makes more sense to have one large regulatory body instead of a regulatory body for each state that companies had to customize their practices in order to do commerce in each state.
    I think you may have misunderstood me. Even if the states had their own agency, there would be one federal set of regulations that set the base line. Kind of like the current EPA agencies. You've got the main EPA, but states can also have their own rules that are more strict for in state producers. The same could be done with the USDA and FDA.

    Now, you could still say that leaves producers needing to have different certifications and such, but it'd be no different than other industries. First, we grandfather in all current producers. That's a given I think. Now, the base line gets set at the federal level. Some states will just mimic those, and some may go more strict. California will probably get its own independent regulatory agency again that screws things up for the other states (I'm looking at you, CARB, and minor sarcasm intended).

    As long as a producer is in accordance with the state regs, and thus federal too by default, then they would be legal to sell in any other state. For the large cooperate farms and other entities that have production facilities in more than one state, you could simplify their process by allowing all of their facilities to operate under one rule. Be it a federal certification of sorts, base it on where their main office is located, or some other way. But regardless, they would at least have to meet the federal guidelines.

    In essence, the states would become more of an enforcement agency in this scenario. I'm not saying it would be the best scenario, but an option that would be available if discussing transferring power away from the feds and giving back to the states.
  9. #9  

    Default Re: Why we need the FDA and USDA

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    I think you may have misunderstood me. Even if the states had their own agency, there would be one federal set of regulations that set the base line. Kind of like the current EPA agencies. You've got the main EPA, but states can also have their own rules that are more strict for in state producers. The same could be done with the USDA and FDA.

    Now, you could still say that leaves producers needing to have different certifications and such, but it'd be no different than other industries. First, we grandfather in all current producers. That's a given I think. Now, the base line gets set at the federal level. Some states will just mimic those, and some may go more strict. California will probably get its own independent regulatory agency again that screws things up for the other states (I'm looking at you, CARB, and minor sarcasm intended).

    As long as a producer is in accordance with the state regs, and thus federal too by default, then they would be legal to sell in any other state. For the large cooperate farms and other entities that have production facilities in more than one state, you could simplify their process by allowing all of their facilities to operate under one rule. Be it a federal certification of sorts, base it on where their main office is located, or some other way. But regardless, they would at least have to meet the federal guidelines.

    In essence, the states would become more of an enforcement agency in this scenario. I'm not saying it would be the best scenario, but an option that would be available if discussing transferring power away from the feds and giving back to the states.
    So the companies that are grandfathered in, they would have an advantage to other competition, and there's the legislation we have talked about in other threads that limit competition and give a distinct advantage to other companies that in turn builds monopolies that lets them fix prices.....
  10. #10  

    Default Re: Why we need the FDA and USDA

    Grandfathered only in they comply with the federal regulations as the companies exist. If they plan to expand, modernize, and modify their facilities, those changes would have to comply with any applicable current laws in the state.

    I remember hearing similar stories with power plants grandfathered to older pollution regulations, but any changes would require the entire facility to be brought up to current standards. For example, if a plant wanted to change the water turbines to a more efficient model (thus lowering their pollution), they would have to update everything and it would be better to just maintain what they had than doing modular upgrades. I would want to avoid that deterrent.
  11. #11  

    Default Re: Why we need the FDA and USDA

    It would still give them an unfair advantage, which I think we discussed at length how regulation inhibits competition if I'm not mistaken.
  12. #12  

    Default Re: Why we need the FDA and USDA

    Quote Originally Posted by TXGTOU View Post
    It would still give them an unfair advantage, which I think we discussed at length how regulation inhibits competition if I'm not mistaken.
    Overbearing regulation, yes. I've never said we should be regulation free.
  13. #13  

    Default Re: Why we need the FDA and USDA

    I still think it would set a dangerous precedence. I live in Texas and our state is pulling in corporate offices left and right. They are promising companies tax breaks, and various other perks to draw them in. As a matter of fact, there's one company that makes SRIracha in California that many citizens have complained about the air near the factory being painful to the eyes and other parts of the body. A Texas city tried to land them locally with the promise that they would be allowed to manufacture without the complaints about air quality.

    So if we let the states handle their own regulation, what we'd have is each state lowering their requirements to draw in business until we have states in the country that look like China. The Federal government wouldn't be caught up in a conflict of interest when establishing guidelines, where a state would say, "You know what, screw regulations, I'd rather have my citizens employed", which is irresponsible IMO.
  14. #14  

    Default Re: Why we need the FDA and USDA

    Quote Originally Posted by TXGTOU View Post
    The Federal government wouldn't be caught up in a conflict of interest when establishing guidelines, where a state would say, "You know what, screw regulations, I'd rather have my citizens employed", which is irresponsible IMO.

    If a state did that, then the feds could come down on them for not complying with the regulations, just as they can do now in other areas of government.

    As for your hot sauce company example, I grew up in Texas and have traveled boarder to boarder in it. Maybe not that one specific city you mentioned, but there's tons of rural areas where that wouldn't be an issue. If that's a concern, then would you agree all the cattle feed lots and packing houses in the central states should move out? What about paper mills in the various wooded areas? Those places and more are quite offensive to the senses, yet located near areas.
  15. #15  

    Default Re: Why we need the FDA and USDA

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    If a state did that, then the feds could come down on them for not complying with the regulations, just as they can do now in other areas of government.

    As for your hot sauce company example, I grew up in Texas and have traveled boarder to boarder in it. Maybe not that one specific city you mentioned, but there's tons of rural areas where that wouldn't be an issue. If that's a concern, then would you agree all the cattle feed lots and packing houses in the central states should move out? What about paper mills in the various wooded areas? Those places and more are quite offensive to the senses, yet located near areas.
    You're not thinking of the unintended consequences of letting corporations and/or states self-regulate. Lets look at our neighbors to the south. We have a major U.S. pork manufacturer that took their plants down to Mexico because there is less regulation there. Do you know where Swine flu originated? Let me give you a hint, it originated in a farm where antibiotics were pumped into these animals at rates that would be illegal by U.S. standards. It was only a matter of time before the germs built an immunity to the antibiotics being used, and boom, now we have Swine Flu to contend with. But the corporation didn't care, it wanted to maximize profit by increasing the yield rate of its animals.

    With a federal entity that has government resources that a larger government would provide, we wouldn't have these stories of under-paid, over-worked government inspectors that are being bribed left and right. We'd have better oversight of the industry.

    That's one thing that really concerns me about the nearsighted tea party and the base of the right wing, they want to suffocate government and then scream when government proves ineffective (strip away funding for ANY endeavor that needs capital to operate, and guess what you get?). All these "freedom lovers" are doing is playing into big industry's hands.

    While I don't watch Family Guy that often (their humor has grown long in the tooth for me), they did have one episode that while hyperbole in nature, did send a strong message. http://www.buzzfeed.com/whitneyjeffe...-the-tea-party
  16. #16  

    Default Re: Why we need the FDA and USDA

    Quote Originally Posted by TXGTOU View Post
    Lets look at our neighbors to the south. We have a major U.S. pork manufacturer that took their plants down to Mexico because there is less regulation there. Do you know where Swine flu originated? Let me give you a hint, it originated in a farm where antibiotics were pumped into these animals at rates that would be illegal by U.S. standards.
    Antibiotics have no effect on viruses, so your point is baseless to begin with. Plus, the CDC believes the virus evolved naturally and not through human intervention.

    http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/informati...1_virus_qa.htm

    They don't say exactly where the virus was first detected in pigs, but they did say it likely involved mixing Eurasian pigs with North American to bring the two parent virus together. Even if it did happen in Mexico, it just as likely could have happened in the U.S.or Canada and no amount of regulation (except total import quarantine) would have prevented the two viruses from reassembling.

    You harped on us not leaning to the left about our sources, but I'd say you need to check yours too.


    Edit: Also, any government is going to be inefficient by it's very nature. There are some things it's better suited for at different levels, but those roles should be kept as small and limited as feasible. I've often heard about various departments of government that look for ways to spend extra money after coming in under budget because otherwise they risk the budget being cut and they don't want to loose that funding. How is that a good thing?
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  17. #17  

    Default Re: Why we need the FDA and USDA

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    Antibiotics have no effect on viruses, so your point is baseless to begin with. Plus, the CDC believes the virus evolved naturally and not through human intervention.

    CDC H1N1 Flu | Origin of 2009 H1N1 Flu (Swine Flu)

    They don't say exactly where the virus was first detected in pigs, but they did say it likely involved mixing Eurasian pigs with North American to bring the two parent virus together. Even if it did happen in Mexico, it just as likely could have happened in the U.S.or Canada and no amount of regulation (except total import quarantine) would have prevented the two viruses from reassembling.

    You harped on us not leaning to the left about our sources, but I'd say you need to check yours too.


    Edit: Also, any government is going to be inefficient by it's very nature. There are some things it's better suited for at different levels, but those roles should be kept as small and limited as feasible. I've often heard about various departments of government that look for ways to spend extra money after coming in under budget because otherwise they risk the budget being cut and they don't want to loose that funding. How is that a good thing?
    I see the same thing take place in business. I used to work for IT at a company that had a set budget and if we came in a little under budget, guess what, we found a department that somehow got overlooked and needed new computers.

    My question is still out there, if a state is in control of its own environmental regulation and is trying to persuade big business to open up shop in their state, how do they balance the two and ensure that we're not lowering standards for industry?
  18. #18  

    Default Re: Why we need the FDA and USDA

    Quote Originally Posted by TXGTOU View Post
    My question is still out there, if a state is in control of its own environmental regulation and is trying to persuade big business to open up shop in their state, how do they balance the two and ensure that we're not lowering standards for industry?
    The state has the ability to meet the EPA regulations (I think they are also allowed to follow CARB instead since those are more strict, but don't quote me on that), so that's as far as that balance can legally go. Don't forget, governments also inventivize in other ways, such as tax breaks and cheap/free land.
  19. #19  

    Default Re: Why we need the FDA and USDA

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    The state has the ability to meet the EPA regulations (I think they are also allowed to follow CARB instead since those are more strict, but don't quote me on that), so that's as far as that balance can legally go. Don't forget, governments also inventivize in other ways, such as tax breaks and cheap/free land.
    I'm not sure I understand. You said you'd be fine with agencies like the EPA and the FDA disappearing and allowing the states to self-regulate correct? My question is if that's the case, what would stop states from lowering the standards to lure big business to their backyard?
  20. #20  

    Default Re: Why we need the FDA and USDA

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    I would agree that these two agencies should have federal oversight at least (even if ran by the individual states) so there's one set of guidelines for foods no matter where they are produced since they are distributed across state lines. The conundrum is it can be debated if the feds can simply use the commerce clause for this or if there should be an actual constitutional amendment to make sure the agencies rightfully exist at the federal level.
    And I've said repeatedly that the states would have to meet those guidelines and enforce them, but they could go stricter if they felt the need. I never said they would 100% self regulate.
  21. #21  

    Default Re: Why we need the FDA and USDA

    Pity the person believing the federal government does not play the favorites game. The federal government and its regulatory arms is a direct extension of the party in power. Global warming, green energy, kill the eagle.

    Sent from my SM-P600 using Tapatalk
    EVO & an Acer A500 tablet.

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