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    NoYankees44's Avatar

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    Default Man Ticketed for Warning Drivers of DUI Checkpoint

    Just google the article. It was in Ohio. AC blocks will not let me post the link.


    Summary:
    Man holds up a sign warning of a DUI checkpoint and telling drivers to turn now. Police tell him to put down the sign. He refuses and they ticket him. Up to $700 fine and 90 days in jail. Man claims they are not really checking for DUI's, but rather checking for anything else they can find, that it is a waste of money, and his first amendment right to display the sign. Police claim he was interfering with their checkpoint.

    The police did have one DUI charge that night.


    I have not watched the video yet, but there is one of the confrontation between the man and the police.

    I am very conflicted on this situation. I am still deciding if this is an exception of the first amendment or not. I am also conflicted of the legality of checkpoints in general under the 4th amendment as I have experienced them.

    So what does the Politics section crew think about this case?
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    Default Re: Man Ticketed for Warning Drivers of DUI Checkpoint

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    Default Re: Man Ticketed for Warning Drivers of DUI Checkpoint

    In Texas if you flash your high beams to warn drivers about a speed trap, they can get you for what they call "interfering with police business", which I think is a load of (a word that an overly-sensitive person would frown upon).

    As far as checkpoints are concerned, while I rarely drink, and thus avoid the drinking and driving part that requires drinking, I find checkpoints to be an illegal search. I think it's just an instance where police departments are just staffed with people that are ineffective and lazy and aren't patrolling our cities the way they should. I've seen some police cars hiding in secluded areas where I am assuming they are busy napping while on the clock. If we had officers that practiced due diligence, I don't know why it would be that difficult for an officer to spot a drunk driver, they're typically the ones that are driving erratic on the roads. Instead we have entities like MADD that put pressure on our leaders to enact these types of laws regardless of how it affects our individual liberties. /soapbox
  4. #4  

    Default Re: Man Ticketed for Warning Drivers of DUI Checkpoint

    Quote Originally Posted by TXGTOU View Post
    In Texas if you flash your high beams to warn drivers about a speed trap, they can get you for what they call "interfering with police business", which I think is a load of (a word that an overly-sensitive person would frown upon).
    I heard a story on the radio a month or so ago where a driver was ticketed for flashing his headlights to warn of a speed trap and had it thrown out in court. Don't remember what state that was in, but the court did side that it was within his first amendment rights to do so.

    I would hope the courts side with the guy in Ohio, and I'd also argue that DUI Chen points are against 4th amendment rights. Of course the police would say public safety on the roads would trump that right. I don't think it'll be settled one way or that other unless it goes to the Supreme Court or a federal law was enacted to clarify. And then there's the worse ones I've heard of where a city cop will flag people into a lot for a "voluntary" DNA swab and drug test by an outsourced company. Only it hardly seems voluntary when a uniformed officer has that road blocked and lights flashing.
  5. #5  

    Default Re: Man Ticketed for Warning Drivers of DUI Checkpoint

    Check point have been challenge use the 4th amendment more than once. The ruling is as long as it is random it is legal. The cops can not use any profiling.

    Say they will pull over every 4th car. As long as they pull over and check every 4th car they are fine.

    Also remember driving is a privilege not a right. As such the rules are different.
    Most of the time they doing breathalyzer checks. The general threat of the check point keeps quit a few drunks off the road.
    I have zero sympathy for anyone who drinks and drives. I3 have lost people I know where hit by a drunk.

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    Until proven otherwise the so called "Google Update Alliances" is dead and was just empty promises and words. One has to look no father than the pathetic and slow update process of ICS on all the manufactures and carriers. We should all be asking the question about updates and the so called Update Alliances ever chance we get.
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    Default Re: Man Ticketed for Warning Drivers of DUI Checkpoint

    Quote Originally Posted by Timelessblur View Post
    Check point have been challenge use the 4th amendment more than once. The ruling is as long as it is random it is legal. The cops can not use any profiling.

    Say they will pull over every 4th car. As long as they pull over and check every 4th car they are fine.

    Also remember driving is a privilege not a right. As such the rules are different.
    Most of the time they doing breathalyzer checks. The general threat of the check point keeps quit a few drunks off the road.
    I have zero sympathy for anyone who drinks and drives. I3 have lost people I know where hit by a drunk.

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    The only problem I have with the whole "driving is a privilege and not a right" is that you generally need to be able to drive to earn a living or to run errands, so it's almost like it's entrapment. "If you need to go to your job, we're going to perform an illegal search upon your person. What, you say you'll stay at home all day and don't have a job you can telecommute to? Then starve!"
  7. #7  

    Default Re: Man Ticketed for Warning Drivers of DUI Checkpoint

    I remember reading about DUI checkpoints using mouth swabs. I thought that was pretty excessive. Let me see if I can find one of the articles.

    Here's one:

    Cops to Use Portable Drug Test at New Year's DUI Checkpoints | NBC Southern California
  8. Thread Author  Thread Author    #8  
    NoYankees44's Avatar

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    Default Re: Man Ticketed for Warning Drivers of DUI Checkpoint

    Quote Originally Posted by TXGTOU View Post
    The only problem I have with the whole "driving is a privilege and not a right" is that you generally need to be able to drive to earn a living or to run errands, so it's almost like it's entrapment. "If you need to go to your job, we're going to perform an illegal search upon your person. What, you say you'll stay at home all day and don't have a job you can telecommute to? Then starve!"
    Correct. While driving is a privilege that can potentially be taken away, it is a necessity for participating in society. The only exception would be those that live in places that public transportation is viable. Everywhere else, it is necessary to be able to transport yourself from one place to another in order to survive.
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  9. #9  

    Default Re: Man Ticketed for Warning Drivers of DUI Checkpoint

    Quote Originally Posted by Timelessblur View Post
    Check point have been challenge use the 4th amendment more than once. The ruling is as long as it is random it is legal. The cops can not use any profiling.

    Say they will pull over every 4th car. As long as they pull over and check every 4th car they are fine.

    Also remember driving is a privilege not a right. As such the rules are different.
    Most of the time they doing breathalyzer checks. The general threat of the check point keeps quit a few drunks off the road.
    I have zero sympathy for anyone who drinks and drives. I3 have lost people I know where hit by a drunk.

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    So here's the problem with that logic. Not being searched or detained without probable cause is a right too. The "randomness" of it undermines it's effectiveness. If they are devoting that many resources to one street, that means other streets have less coverage.

    I also have a problem with the "it's a privilege" comment. So that makes this okay because it's a car? Why? Why do all the law abiding citizens have to put up with s search for non law abiding ones? Would you be okay with the cops knocking on every persons home demanding to search it for meth lab making?

    There should have to be probable cause. Driving down the road is not probable enough for you to be suspected of being drunk.

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    Default Re: Man Ticketed for Warning Drivers of DUI Checkpoint

    I'm firmly in the camp that law enforcement and agents should be required to have a warrant or probable cause which would be sufficient to obtain a warrant for each and every search performed. If they want to stop your car, they need probable cause. If they want to search your car, that's another warrant (for the search). If they want to search the truck, that's another warrant. Each one must specify the exact crime (reason) they believe you to be guilty of, exactly what they are searching for and exactly where it is located (car, truck, home, etc).
  11. #11  

    Default Re: Man Ticketed for Warning Drivers of DUI Checkpoint

    Quote Originally Posted by GadgetGator View Post
    So here's the problem with that logic. Not being searched or detained without probable cause is a right too. The "randomness" of it undermines it's effectiveness. If they are devoting that many resources to one street, that means other streets have less coverage.

    I also have a problem with the "it's a privilege" comment. So that makes this okay because it's a car? Why? Why do all the law abiding citizens have to put up with s search for non law abiding ones? Would you be okay with the cops knocking on every persons home demanding to search it for meth lab making?

    There should have to be probable cause. Driving down the road is not probable enough for you to be suspected of being drunk.

    Posted via Android Central App
    I can understand the first one I stand by driving is a privilege not a right.

    You choose to live farther from work. You choose not to use public transportation.

    As for things on dui I would love to see change is to hold the places of business accountable. That is if someone leaves your bar and drive and gets pulled over for a dui you suffer heavy fines as well.
    None of this they cut you off. They should be required to not let you drive off drunk. Sadly bars are to heard accountable for letting drunks drive off and not get them a cab.

    It is sad but thinks need to change and we need to hold the places that let drunks leave and drive accountable. I bet part of the problem would drop really fast if bars now had to deal with heavy fines if they let drunks drive off.



    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    Until proven otherwise the so called "Google Update Alliances" is dead and was just empty promises and words. One has to look no father than the pathetic and slow update process of ICS on all the manufactures and carriers. We should all be asking the question about updates and the so called Update Alliances ever chance we get.
  12. #12  

    Default Re: Man Ticketed for Warning Drivers of DUI Checkpoint

    Quote Originally Posted by TXGTOU View Post
    The only problem I have with the whole "driving is a privilege and not a right" is that you generally need to be able to drive to earn a living or to run errands, so it's almost like it's entrapment. "If you need to go to your job, we're going to perform an illegal search upon your person. What, you say you'll stay at home all day and don't have a job you can telecommute to? Then starve!"
    It's all about money. Cops rely on these kind of things. I don't flash my headlights when I see cops specifically because there are too many power hungry, ticket savvy cops. Driving is a downright necessity in many places.

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  13. #13  

    Default Re: Man Ticketed for Warning Drivers of DUI Checkpoint

    Quote Originally Posted by Timelessblur View Post
    As for things on dui I would love to see change is to hold the places of business accountable. That is if someone leaves your bar and drive and gets pulled over for a dui you suffer heavy fines as well.
    None of this they cut you off. They should be required to not let you drive off drunk. Sadly bars are to heard accountable for letting drunks drive off and not get them a cab.

    It is sad but thinks need to change and we need to hold the places that let drunks leave and drive accountable. I bet part of the problem would drop really fast if bars now had to deal with heavy fines if they let drunks drive off.
    I don't disagree with the sentiment, but how would you expect bars to comply? Obviously if someone is falling down drunk, they should be cut off. But what about people that have only had a few? Should the bars limit people to one drink an hour? If so, what if the bar is busy and the servers can't keep track of who had what? Maybe they should give you a breathalyzer before serving that second drink.

    And what if someone is too drunk to drive, how is the bar supposed to stop them from driving off? Take everyone's keys at the door and give a breathalyzer or sobriety test before letting them leave again? That would be unlawful detention because they have no authority to hold anyone against their will. This would just be another one of those feel good laws, that bars would either not be able to comply with or doing so would kill their business. If you have some answers to this, I'm all ears. I just don't currently see a way a bar could run a successful business and also stop people from driving under the influence if they try to leave without a cab or DD.

    On the flip side, designated driver (or the joke in Wisconsin is the designated decoy) programs are popping up all around. As well as cab companies offering free rides for bar patrons that are too buzzed. I fully support stuff like that because it promotes better choices and allows people to have their fun while not putting the bar in a catch 22.
  14. #14  

    Default Re: Man Ticketed for Warning Drivers of DUI Checkpoint

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    I don't disagree with the sentiment, but how would you expect bars to comply? Obviously if someone is falling down drunk, they should be cut off. But what about people that have only had a few? Should the bars limit people to one drink an hour? If so, what if the bar is busy and the servers can't keep track of who had what? Maybe they should give you a breathalyzer before serving that second drink.

    And what if someone is too drunk to drive, how is the bar supposed to stop them from driving off? Take everyone's keys at the door and give a breathalyzer or sobriety test before letting them leave again? That would be unlawful detention because they have no authority to hold anyone against their will. This would just be another one of those feel good laws, that bars would either not be able to comply with or doing so would kill their business. If you have some answers to this, I'm all ears. I just don't currently see a way a bar could run a successful business and also stop people from driving under the influence if they try to leave without a cab or DD.

    On the flip side, designated driver (or the joke in Wisconsin is the designated decoy) programs are popping up all around. As well as cab companies offering free rides for bar patrons that are too buzzed. I fully support stuff like that because it promotes better choices and allows people to have their fun while not putting the bar in a catch 22.
    Problem I see with the cutting people off and kicking them out is how the bars right now do it. I have been kicked out for being 2 drunk. Here is what they do. Walk you out and say have a nice night. No offer or anything. They pretty much are making it REALLY easy to drive home drunk. now I had a some friends who step in and made damn sure I did not even think about driving home that way nor was I. I knew I was to far gone.
    But that did get me thinking and after talking with some others I found out that how I was handled is normal for a bar. They walk you out of the bar and say have a nice night. NOthing else, no help getting a cab, nothing. THis tells me that the bars have ZERO accountability. It is not hard to trace someone back to the bar they were out.
    It would quickly shape bars up in making sure they had a ride home. Chances are most bars would contract out very quickly with some cab or driving service company to drive people home. It would force bars to shape up. I also have found it not hard to tell if someone is to far gone to drive. THey are not trashed but they clearly are not able to drive either.

    Right now the bars have ZERO and I repeat ZERO liability or problems with it. Itt would be simple bars have bouncers already. They stop you from leaving and give you a breatlizer if htey think you are gone. Or people are required to turn in their keys when they enter the bar. Not hard for a bar to hold onto them. You can leave but you are not allowed to drive off.

    But the fact boils down to a large part of the problem is the places that service alcohol letting people get 2 drunk to drive and not having any responsibility.
    Until proven otherwise the so called "Google Update Alliances" is dead and was just empty promises and words. One has to look no father than the pathetic and slow update process of ICS on all the manufactures and carriers. We should all be asking the question about updates and the so called Update Alliances ever chance we get.
  15. #15  

    Default Re: Man Ticketed for Warning Drivers of DUI Checkpoint

    Quote Originally Posted by Timelessblur View Post
    Right now the bars have ZERO and I repeat ZERO liability or problems with it. Itt would be simple bars have bouncers already. They stop you from leaving and give you a breatlizer if htey think you are gone. Or people are required to turn in their keys when they enter the bar. Not hard for a bar to hold onto them. You can leave but you are not allowed to drive off.
    I don't go to bars, so I can't speak from experience when it comes to how they handle things today. I only know of various PSA's and DD/volunteered cab campaigns being advertised. Ok, so the bars take your keys. There's the question of if that's even legal to hold on to them when the owner asks for them back. Breathalyzer, is that even legal for a non-LEO to administer for determining if someone is too drunk to drive? What if the breathalyzer isn't administered properly and they let someone go that shouldn't be allowed? Or vice versa? So you now have a ton of liability on the part of the bar, because they were in the role of determining public safety and screwed up. So I still think a law like that would be pretty much unenforceable, or the compliance costs would price them out of business. It's easy to say they should just this, that, or the other, but that doesn't always work out in the real world.
  16. Thread Author  Thread Author    #16  
    NoYankees44's Avatar

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    Default Re: Man Ticketed for Warning Drivers of DUI Checkpoint

    Quote Originally Posted by Timelessblur View Post
    Problem I see with the cutting people off and kicking them out is how the bars right now do it. I have been kicked out for being 2 drunk. Here is what they do. Walk you out and say have a nice night. No offer or anything. They pretty much are making it REALLY easy to drive home drunk. now I had a some friends who step in and made damn sure I did not even think about driving home that way nor was I. I knew I was to far gone.
    But that did get me thinking and after talking with some others I found out that how I was handled is normal for a bar. They walk you out of the bar and say have a nice night. NOthing else, no help getting a cab, nothing. THis tells me that the bars have ZERO accountability. It is not hard to trace someone back to the bar they were out.
    It would quickly shape bars up in making sure they had a ride home. Chances are most bars would contract out very quickly with some cab or driving service company to drive people home. It would force bars to shape up. I also have found it not hard to tell if someone is to far gone to drive. THey are not trashed but they clearly are not able to drive either.

    Right now the bars have ZERO and I repeat ZERO liability or problems with it. Itt would be simple bars have bouncers already. They stop you from leaving and give you a breatlizer if htey think you are gone. Or people are required to turn in their keys when they enter the bar. Not hard for a bar to hold onto them. You can leave but you are not allowed to drive off.

    But the fact boils down to a large part of the problem is the places that service alcohol letting people get 2 drunk to drive and not having any responsibility.
    Bars get fined for over serving people all the time. They can easily loose their license. And I am fairly certain there have been several instances of bars being liable for the actions of their patrons after they leave.

    And it is not the bar's responsibility to ensure anything. It I'd the person. If the person is stupid and irresponsible, they deserve all the negative things that happen to them. We should not as a society be pushing the blame on others like children.
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  17. #17  

    Default Re: Man Ticketed for Warning Drivers of DUI Checkpoint

    Quote Originally Posted by nolittdroid View Post
    It's all about money. Cops rely on these kind of things. I don't flash my headlights when I see cops specifically because there are too many power hungry, ticket savvy cops. Driving is a downright necessity in many places.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    What I get a kick out of is when people defend it by saying, "No, the police stations don't need your money". Sure the money generated by tickets isn't enough to fund a police department, but it DOES generate money for the local city.
  18. #18  

    Default Re: Man Ticketed for Warning Drivers of DUI Checkpoint

    Quote Originally Posted by NoYankees44 View Post
    Bars get fined for over serving people all the time. They can easily loose their license. And I am fairly certain there have been several instances of bars being liable for the actions of their patrons after they leave.

    And it is not the bar's responsibility to ensure anything. It I'd the person. If the person is stupid and irresponsible, they deserve all the negative things that happen to them. We should not as a society be pushing the blame on others like children.
    In most things I would tend to agree with that. Problem with drunk driving is it is not just the drunks life they are risking. They are risking other people's lives. It changes the equation big time.
    Get back to me after you lost a friend due to a drunk hitting them.

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    Until proven otherwise the so called "Google Update Alliances" is dead and was just empty promises and words. One has to look no father than the pathetic and slow update process of ICS on all the manufactures and carriers. We should all be asking the question about updates and the so called Update Alliances ever chance we get.
  19. #19  
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    Default Re: Man Ticketed for Warning Drivers of DUI Checkpoint

    Nope. I would refuse the Swab test, a bit personal I think. And what do they do with that little sample of DNA when they are done with it?

    I'm not okay with any invasion of my personal space. It doesn't get much more personal than spit. 😒

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  20. #20  

    Default Re: Man Ticketed for Warning Drivers of DUI Checkpoint

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Spock View Post
    I'm firmly in the camp that law enforcement and agents should be required to have a warrant or probable cause which would be sufficient to obtain a warrant for each and every search performed. If they want to stop your car, they need probable cause. If they want to search your car, that's another warrant (for the search). If they want to search the truck, that's another warrant. Each one must specify the exact crime (reason) they believe you to be guilty of, exactly what they are searching for and exactly where it is located (car, truck, home, etc).
    If I could add to this. All police departments need a civilian review board. Just look at the Albuquerque, New Mexico police department that has been in the news lately.
    GadgetGator likes this.
  21. #21  

    Default Re: Man Ticketed for Warning Drivers of DUI Checkpoint

    Quote Originally Posted by Timelessblur View Post
    I can understand the first one I stand by driving is a privilege not a right.

    You choose to live farther from work. You choose not to use public transportation.

    As for things on dui I would love to see change is to hold the places of business accountable. That is if someone leaves your bar and drive and gets pulled over for a dui you suffer heavy fines as well.
    None of this they cut you off. They should be required to not let you drive off drunk. Sadly bars are to heard accountable for letting drunks drive off and not get them a cab.

    It is sad but thinks need to change and we need to hold the places that let drunks leave and drive accountable. I bet part of the problem would drop really fast if bars now had to deal with heavy fines if they let drunks drive off.



    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    I think you are mixing things together I agree that driving is a privilege but that doesn't mean you give up all the existing rights you have when you sit in a car. Getting in a car shouldn't be like visiting another country where the laws and your rights are completely different.

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  22. #22  

    Default Re: Man Ticketed for Warning Drivers of DUI Checkpoint

    Quote Originally Posted by GadgetGator View Post
    I think you are mixing things together I agree that driving is a privilege but that doesn't mean you give up all the existing rights you have when you sit in a car. Getting in a car shouldn't be like visiting another country where the laws and your rights are completely different.
    They are if you're a trucker. XD
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  23. #23  
    Darth Spock's Avatar

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    Default Re: Man Ticketed for Warning Drivers of DUI Checkpoint

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooncatt View Post
    They are if you're a trucker. XD
    Good point, and while I am in the camp that thinks most of the 2010 and 2013 regulations hurt my driver's income and their productivity (and thus the economy), I understand that the industry does need regulation and the spirit behind them. I think they're thinking about the right problems, generally, but they're getting to the very wrong conclusions and micromanaging logbooks isn't how we produce safety oriented drivers. All that said, it makes sense that pilots and commercial drivers and other roles where lots of lives are in the hands of the professionals have restrictions in place to govern their use of that equipment... I just think we could be smarter about how it's handled.

    Sorry for the highjack. Still opposed to DUI checkpoints and any/all searches that don't have sufficient grounds upon which a legitimate warrant could be (or has already been) obtained - and by the strictest adherence to those laws, not loose cowboy hunch nonsense.
  24. #24  

    Default Re: Man Ticketed for Warning Drivers of DUI Checkpoint

    Quote Originally Posted by Timelessblur View Post
    In most things I would tend to agree with that. Problem with drunk driving is it is not just the drunks life they are risking. They are risking other people's lives. It changes the equation big time.
    Get back to me after you lost a friend due to a drunk hitting them.

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    I was actually hit by a drunk driver and my truck rolled 3 times. The truck was less than a few weeks old and had less than 9000 miles on it. It was a total loss. The funny part is the cop was already following the driver but for some reason didn't stop him sooner. I don't think giving up all our freedoms is the answer in this case. If that's the case, why not require auto manufacturers to install breathalyzers in all their cars? Why not limit the speeds of all cars to the highest speed limit? As much as I hate seeing some of these morons on the road, why should that ruin it for the rest of us? If police officers were doing their job more effectively, you wouldn't need to succumb to a police state.
    GadgetGator likes this.
  25. #25  

    Default Re: Man Ticketed for Warning Drivers of DUI Checkpoint

    Quote Originally Posted by msndrstood View Post
    It doesn't get much more personal than spit.
    lol, this needs to make someone's personal signature....
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