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  1. #351  

    Default Re: What do you think the best course of action is against mass shootings in schools?

    I found this over the weekend.

    the Heller decision was a Second Amendment case in which the high court affirmed the “right to bear arms” as an unalienable, individual right.

    First, let’s read the Second Amendment as written: “A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” It’s the Amendment’s “well-regulated Militia” portion Progressive gun-grabbers have always seized upon. They insist the Second Amendment concerns the right of military personnel (state and federal) to possess arms … not free individuals.

    Writing for the majority, Antonin Scalia’s brilliant Heller opinion goes for the throat of Progressive jurisprudential skulduggery, which attempts to amend the Constitution by redefining words, a trick that goes by the name “deconstructionism.”

    Scalia disposed of that nonsense quickly: “Three provisions of the Constitution refer to ‘the people’ in a context other than ‘rights’ – the famous preamble (“We the people”), Article I (providing that ‘the people’ will choose members of the House), and the Tenth Amendment (providing that those powers not given the Federal Government remain with ‘the States’ or ‘the people’). Those provisions arguably refer to ‘the people’ acting collectively – but they deal with the exercise or reservation of powers, not rights. Nowhere else in the Constitution does a ‘right’ attributed to ‘the people’ refer to anything other than an individual right.”

    To back up his claim, as the circuit court did in its Friday ruling, Scalia sought the source or “natural meaning of the text” by using … what else … dictionaries.

    “The 1773 edition of Samuel Johnson’s dictionary defined ‘arms’ as ‘weapons of offence, or armor of defense’ … Timothy Cunningham’s important 1771 legal dictionary defined ‘arms’ as ‘anything that a man wears for his defense, or takes into his hands, or useth in wrath to cast at or strike another’ … Just as the First Amendment protects modern forms of communications, and the Fourth Amendment applies to modern forms of search, the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding.
    Last edited by Live2ride883; 01-28-2013 at 11:40 AM.
    I miss my friend Matt McQuinn he touched so many lives, and in the end gave his life to protect someone that he loved. I am proud to have known him, and of the choices he made when it mattered. You were a true hero.

    "You would not fear my weapon unless your intentions were to provoke my using it"
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  2. #352  
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    Default Re: What do you think the best course of action is against mass shootings in schools?

    Apparently some of you haven't ever seen Tremors. How else would anyone have survived if that married couple didn't have an armory in their basement?!

    All joking aside, I read this entire thread and found plenty of it informative or at least entertaining. Of course, plenty of childish antics. Unfortunately, that's somewhat to be expected. Even happens with the adults on Capitol Hill

    I'm not a paranoid individual. I own an old, but well cared for shotgun I occasionally use to skeet shoot. I have it properly locked and would also consider it a means to defend my life and property. I would offer to say a ban on assult rifles would almost certainly not affect my day to day life in any sort of way, other than I consider myself to be a patriot. I believe the founding father's may have granted (or even believe they did) "the people" the right to bear most all of the other "absurd" or "military only" weapons and/or technology that exists today as their direct intention was to ensure "the people" would be properly armed, as a last resort, to protect themselves from and/or overthrow a tyrannical government. Plenty of people would say that it's absurd to think in 20XX "the people" would ever HAVE to do that. I'm inclined to agree, mostly, but crazier things have happened. I'm not sure even an assult rifle (by whatever definition) would really help "us" out in such an event, but it'd be better than some pea shooters and bird shot.

    “The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it.”
    ― Thomas Jefferson

    “A free people ought...to be armed”
    ― George Washington

    “The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.”
    ― Thomas Jefferson

    ”A free people ought not only be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who would attempt to abuse them, which would include their own Government.”
    -George Washington

    Lastly - I like this quote I read somewhere else. " A gun is similar to a parachute in that in the event that if you need one, and don't have one, you'll likely never need one again."
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  3. #353  
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    Default Re: What do you think the best course of action is against mass shootings in schools?

    108th CONGRESS
    1st Session
    H. R. 648

    To protect the right to obtain firearms for security, and to use firearms in defense of self, family, or home, and to provide for the enforcement of such right.

    IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
    February 5, 2003

    The Congress finds the following:

    (1) Police cannot protect, and are not legally liable for failing to protect, individual citizens, as evidenced by the following:

    (A) The courts have consistently ruled that the police do not have an obligation to protect individuals, only the public in general. For example, in Warren v. District of Columbia Metropolitan Police Department, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App. 1981), the court stated: `[C]ourts have without exception concluded that when a municipality or other governmental entity undertakes to furnish police services, it assumes a duty only to the public at large and not to individual members of the community.’.

    (B) Former Florida Attorney General Jim Smith told Florida legislators that police responded to only 200,000 of 700,000 calls for help to Dade County authorities.

    (C) The United States Department of Justice found that, in 1989, there were 168,881 crimes of violence for which police had not responded within 1 hour.

    (2) Citizens frequently must use firearms to defend themselves, as evidenced by the following:
    (A) Every year, more than 2,400,000 people in the United States use a gun to DEFEND themselves against criminals–or more than 6,500 people a day. This means that, each year, firearms are used 60 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.

    (B) Of the 2,400,000 self-defense cases, more than 192,000 are by WOMEN defending themselves against sexual abuse.

    (C) Of the 2,400,000 times citizens use their guns to defend themselves every year, 92 percent MERELY BRANDISH their gun OR FIRE A WARNING SHOT to scare off their attackers. Less than 8 percent of the time, does a citizen kill or wound his or her attacker.
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  4. #354  
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    Default Re: What do you think the best course of action is against mass shootings in schools?

    Borrowed from "Ranger1965":

    UCLA professor emeritus James Q. Wilson, a respected expert on crime, police practices and guns, says, “We know from Census Bureau surveys that something beyond a hundred thousand uses of guns for self-defense occur every year. We know from smaller surveys of a commercial nature that the number may be as high as 2-and-a-half or 3 million. We don’t know what the right number is, but whatever the right number is, it’s not a trivial number.”

    The Department of Justice’s own National Institute of Justice study titled “Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms,” estimated that 1.5 million Americans use guns for defensive purposes every year.

    Former assistant district attorney and firearms expert David Kopel writes, “… [W]hen a robbery victim does not defend himself, the robber succeeds 88 percent of the time, and the victim is injured 25 percent of the time. When a victim resists with a gun, the robbery success rate falls to 30 percent, and the victim injury rate falls to 17 percent.

    You don’t need to apologize, I wouldn’t believe its sincerity anyway. You’re just trying to score points, not have a meaningful discussion. But for what it’s worth think on this. The people you need to use a gun on, don’t respond to reason, or words. Ever. They’re broken inside, and only respect force. It’s sad, but it’s true….and when seconds count, the police are minutes away.
  5. #355  

    Default Re: What do you think the best course of action is against mass shootings in schools?

    I think all these laws and gun scare is really unnecessary. The underlying factor of why these shooters did what they did seemed to be how society was treating them. That they were outcasted because they were different. If we all took the time to befriend these individuals who seem to be so withdrawn from the world, perhaps they wouldn't need a reason to shoot innocents. We don't have to be best friends with them, but just a Hi or starting up a conversation wouldn't hurt anyone. The golden rule is something we need to teach our kids so they don't become bullies that will one day provoke someone who's unstable. If guns were taken away, I'm sure other weapons of choice may be used. If someone wants to harm another person. guns is just an easy choice, but there are other weapons too.
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  6. #356  
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    Default Re: What do you think the best course of action is against mass shootings in schools?

    Why is it such a leap of consciousness to understand the context in which the 2nd Amendment was originated? Madison must be doing high-velocity turns in his grave over the sheer stupidity and chosen blindness witnessed in modern-day fear and gnashing of teeth by the NRA and its defenders.

    To understand why the 2nd Amendment was even included in the Bill of Rights, one must understand the history behind it (eg. Boston Massacre, for example). Does anyone here bother? Generally not. Does anyone have a clue how "tyrannical government" had presented itself? Does anyone think this may be where the term "standing army" comes into play? Words have meaning. The words used in our Bill of Rights, their foundational documents, and completed Constitution were debated to exhaustion (real debate, not the debauchery of an internet forum), wrestled over, with specific context squeezed out of them so they could be as free of interpretation as possible. But, understanding them requires historical context beyond just the definition of individual words themselves.

    No one in authority has even made the wholesale suggestion that "guns be banned". The more firearms produced, the more weapons criminals have access to. In all practicality, ending the production of some models of firearms from the public market is beneficial to us as a civil society. Your right to bear arms remains fully in tact. You continue to be able to defend your property, your family, your life if and when necessary. When a firearms manufacturer decides to end production of a model, are they infringing your 2nd Amendment right in any way, shape, or form? Absolutely not. It's a product. And that is all it is. The market absence of a firearm model or type is not an infringement on your right or ability to defend yourself when necessary. Sober up, people.
  7. #357  

    Default Re: What do you think the best course of action is against mass shootings in schools?

    Defending your home is more difficult if you have a 7 round magazine and the intruder has a 30 round magazine....the criminal element does not care about your gun control law. Crack is illegal, people still get it. Do you really think the criminal element will be swayed by a law? I agree they need to enforce the current laws better and make it illegal to sale a gun to an individual without a proper background check.(especially individual to individual transactions.)

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  8. #358  

    Default Re: What do you think the best course of action is against mass shootings in schools?

    I think gun control laws are more about making us feel better and in many cases a false sense of security. There are so so so so many guns out there that any law to curtail them would achieve little success.

    I dare say it would be as effective as the War on Drugs or Prohibition in the past.

    Here is an example of how banning magazine capacity might.. and I say might, have a negligible effect on mass shootings. Granted, the person in the video is a highly trained shooter.... with a little practice, many can reload quickly.

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  9. #359  
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    Default Re: What do you think the best course of action is against mass shootings in schools?

    Making it an arms race between civilized American society and a criminal element is a losing proposition which will only result in more innocent deaths. That is inevitable. In a civil society, that is unnecessary with wise choices.

    What part of ending production presents a mental roadblock? When products are no longer produced, criminals find it harder and harder to obtain them over time. Supply will dry up. DHS isn't about to overlook illegal weapons trafficking into, or out of, the US. Get real.
  10. #360  

    Default Re: What do you think the best course of action is against mass shootings in schools?

    Quote Originally Posted by carolinadroid View Post
    DHS isn't about to overlook illegal weapons trafficking into, or out of, the US. Get real.
    They will be as effective as the DEA is keeping drugs out of the country IMO. Its not a pretty truth, but it is nonetheless IMO. I would rather see the funds used on mental health care.

    Forgive the awful pun.... but we would get a bigger bang for the buck.
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  11. #361  

    Default Re: What do you think the best course of action is against mass shootings in schools?

    These weapons would still be obtainable for quite sometime if only to the criminal element. Once again, disarming or under arming law abiding citizens. Law abiding citizens arent the problem.

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  12. #362  
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    Default Re: What do you think the best course of action is against mass shootings in schools?

    Quote Originally Posted by cdmjlt369 View Post
    These weapons would still be obtainable for quite sometime if only to the criminal element. Once again, disarming or under arming law abiding citizens. Law abiding citizens arent the problem.

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    When you can statistically demonstrate that high-capacity magazines are necessary for the defense of one's home/family due to the theoretical claim you are making, Americans will lend an ear. Until then, not so much. The FBI should prove to be a good source for you. Go for it.
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  13. #363  

    Default Re: What do you think the best course of action is against mass shootings in schools?

    Quote Originally Posted by carolinadroid View Post
    When you can statistically demonstrate that high-capacity magazines are necessary for the defense of one's home/family due to the theoretical claim you are making, Americans will lend an ear. Until then, not so much. The FBI should prove to be a good source for you. Go for it.
    There is nothing theoretical about the tens of millions of HC magazines that are "out in the wild".
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  14. #364  
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    Default Re: What do you think the best course of action is against mass shootings in schools?

    Quote Originally Posted by kilofox View Post
    There is nothing theoretical about the tens of millions of HC magazines that are "out in the wild".
    And an arms race produces our best solution? A career in emergency medicine should produce lifelong security in that case.

    Whether "in the wild" or not, the FBI's crime statistics don't lie.
  15. #365  

    Default Re: What do you think the best course of action is against mass shootings in schools?

    Quote Originally Posted by carolinadroid View Post
    And an arms race produces our best solution? A career in emergency medicine should produce lifelong security in that case.

    Whether "in the wild" or not, the FBI's crime statistics don't lie.
    Tens of millions of HC Magazines in the public renders the "arms race" statement moot. IMO
  16. #366  
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    Default Re: What do you think the best course of action is against mass shootings in schools?

    Quote Originally Posted by kilofox View Post
    Tens of millions of HC Magazines in the public renders the "arms race" statement moot. IMO
    Not moot when there is a gun lobby with a bottomless pit of funding pushing for more and more 'legal' (though unwise) production and use.
  17. #367  

    Default Re: What do you think the best course of action is against mass shootings in schools?

    Quote Originally Posted by carolinadroid View Post
    Not moot when there is a gun lobby with a bottomless pit of funding pushing for more and more 'legal' (though unwise) production and use.
    This has nothing to do with the gun lobby..... its all about the math and the reality of the situation. When it comes to "production", its too late, the damage so to speak, has already been done.

    We should concentrate on mental health care. How about stopping a mentally disturbed person from killing even one person with any weapon let alone a gun?
  18. #368  

    Default Re: What do you think the best course of action is against mass shootings in schools?




    In an interview from 1995.
    I miss my friend Matt McQuinn he touched so many lives, and in the end gave his life to protect someone that he loved. I am proud to have known him, and of the choices he made when it mattered. You were a true hero.

    "You would not fear my weapon unless your intentions were to provoke my using it"
  19. #369  
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    Default Re: What do you think the best course of action is against mass shootings in schools?

    Quote Originally Posted by kilofox View Post
    This has nothing to do with the gun lobby..... its all about the math and the reality of the situation. When it comes to "production", its too late, the damage so to speak, has already been done.

    We should concentrate on mental health care. How about stopping a mentally disturbed person from killing even one person with any weapon let alone a gun?
    Because that makes sense and we don't allow logic lol. Instead of focusing on the issue we can just take away our rights because we have the idiotbox generation.

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  20. #370  
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    Default Re: What do you think the best course of action is against mass shootings in schools?

    Quote Originally Posted by kilofox View Post
    This has nothing to do with the gun lobby..... its all about the math and the reality of the situation. When it comes to "production", its too late, the damage so to speak, has already been done.
    So a never-ending arms race, funded by the cowards at the NRA, is cool. Got it.

    We should concentrate on mental health care. How about stopping a mentally disturbed person from killing even one person with any weapon let alone a gun?
    Since you invoked the "War on Drugs", how is treatment working to diminish overall illicit drug use? That's the parallel point you're trying to make here.
  21. #371  

    Default Re: What do you think the best course of action is against mass shootings in schools?

    Quote Originally Posted by carolinadroid View Post
    So a never-ending arms race, funded by the cowards at the NRA, is cool. Got it.



    Since you invoked the "War on Drugs", how is treatment working to diminish overall illicit drug use? That's the parallel point you're trying to make here.
    I dont care about the NRA... Zero.... I care about the math and nothing else. There are so many HC mags out there that banding them will do nothing except give people a false sense of security.

    My statement about the War on Drugs deals with the effectiveness of the DEA keeping drugs out of the country and its failure, just as a HC Magazine ban will be a failure in keeping HC Magazines out of the hands of the mentally ill and criminals.
  22. #372  
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    Default Re: What do you think the best course of action is against mass shootings in schools?

    Quote Originally Posted by kilofox View Post
    I dont care about the NRA... Zero.... I care about the math and nothing else. There are so many HC mags out there that banding them will do nothing except give people a false sense of security.

    My statement about the War on Drugs deals with the effectiveness of the DEA keeping drugs out of the country and its failure, just as a HC Magazine ban will be a failure in keeping HC Magazines out of the hands of the mentally ill and criminals.
    The NRA doesn't care about you either. However, it loves the way you think.

    The difference is that we can control the production of firearms. We cannot control the production of illicit drugs. Sorry that the math of draining the swamp doesn't work for you. It works for the rest of us though.
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    Default Re: What do you think the best course of action is against mass shootings in schools?

    Quote Originally Posted by Live2ride883 View Post
    Dianne Feinstein Gun ban in 1995 - She wanted to Ban all guns, Force turn in - YouTube[/url]
    In an interview from 1995.
    Are you seriously that mentally incurious or just that cheap? Rather than track down the context in which Feinstein said "turn 'em all in" by reviewing the original 60 minutes interview, you regurgitate extremist lies (aka talking points). Feinstein was only referring to assault weapons as she had originally intended the '94 ban versus the watered-down version which was ultimately passed. Have you no shame?

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  24. #374  

    Default What do you think the best course of action is against mass shootings in schools?

    Quote Originally Posted by carolinadroid View Post
    The NRA doesn't care about you either. However, it loves the way you think.

    The difference is that we can control the production of firearms. We cannot control the production of illicit drugs. Sorry that the math of draining the swamp doesn't work for you. It works for the rest of us though.
    Great... production is totally controlled. Now I ask you, what do we do about the tens of millions of HC Magazines that already exist and are in the possession of the public?

    Is it as simple as passing a law and they all just magically go away?

    While I am at it, you can stop with the ad hominem references to me as I have been civil with you.


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    Default Re: What do you think the best course of action is against mass shootings in schools?

    Quote Originally Posted by kilofox View Post
    Great... production is totally controlled. Now I ask you, what do we do about the tens of millions of HC Magazines that already exist and are in the possession of the public?

    Is it as simple as passing a law and they all just magically go away?
    If you'll recall, I have not made any such fantastical proposition.

    In a civil society of laws, what choice do we have but to make and enforce the strongest laws possible to minimize the likelihood of gun violence. If we are not agreed to this principle, there is no point in going beyond this point. Is a law which can be demonstrated to have directly and effectively reduced the death toll by 5 worth it? What's the magic number? Ask the police chiefs and the families of those most effected for the real answer.
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