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    Default Snapdragon 800 Vs Apple A7

    Anyone have any thoughts on the power comparison between the two? And not just power in terms of how well either's software is optimized for running on it, but in terms of sheer potential power. How much does the A7 upgrade to 64 bit nullify the 800's greater core count and higher clockrate, among any other differences?
    Last edited by Roundpotato; 09-10-2013 at 05:13 PM.
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    Default Re: Snapdragon 800 Vs Apple A7

    Well, since iOS now also has 3d Mark, we'll be able to put all these phones head to head. As far as the technical aspect and differences between the two chips, I am waiting for a nice comparison write up from Anandtech, that dude really goes in depth.
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    In short it 64 bit is a marketing ploy and nothing more. Don't get me wrong. I am not saying it won't be faster then every previous Apple SOC and maybe even the Kriat based SOC from Qualcomm, bit 64 bit will have nothing to do with it.

    64 bit processing simply increases the size of the data set of information a cpu can process at once. The problem is no phone out has nearly enough of the other resources like ram and other memory addressable items to get advantage from it. You would need a phone that literally has 4+ GB of ram. As far as I know the closest is the Note3 with 3GB.

    There are also some consequences of running 64 bit. Everything gets larger and takes up more ram. On top of that there is a chance some unoptimized apps you can loose a bit of performance.

    It isn't a bad thing to be ready for 64bit, it is just to early with the hardware we have to expect any really improvements from it though.

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    Default Re: Snapdragon 800 Vs Apple A7

    Im willing to bet the A7 is still going to be on top when it comes to graphics performance. Apples chips have always been strong when it comes to that department. You have to also remember that Apple optimizes its software around the hardware. This method has been an apple technique since Day 1 of the modern era. So they are able to get more out of less power. Spec wise on paper you would think the Note 3 should be the winner in every department without question. Basically the Note 3 has double everything.

    But the experiences on each device will be similar. Both should be smooth, but i'm sure apple will still have a slight edge in overall performance based off the fact that there OS is geared towards user experience and fluidity.

    You wont see the full effects of the 64 bit until most the apps catch up and are rewritten to support it. So at the moment i agree its not going to make a serious difference outside the OS apps yet. Pure power wise? I think the 800 has the edge, but we won't know until the A7 is completely torn down. Like mentioned above Anandtech will be the ones to read if your really into hardware.
    Last edited by kca2000; 09-10-2013 at 07:59 PM.
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    Default Re: Snapdragon 800 Vs Apple A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig King View Post
    In short it 64 bit is a marketing ploy and nothing more. Don't get me wrong. I am not saying it won't be faster then every previous Apple SOC and maybe even the Kriat based SOC from Qualcomm, bit 64 bit will have nothing to do with it.

    64 bit processing simply increases the size of the data set of information a cpu can process at once. The problem is no phone out has nearly enough of the other resources like ram and other memory addressable items to get advantage from it. You would need a phone that literally has 4+ GB of ram. As far as I know the closest is the Note3 with 3GB.

    There are also some consequences of running 64 bit. Everything gets larger and takes up more ram. On top of that there is a chance some unoptimized apps you can loose a bit of performance.

    It isn't a bad thing to be ready for 64bit, it is just to early with the hardware we have to expect any really improvements from it though.

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    I think you're confused. Apple isn't including it for improvements now, they're including them for later. The version of iOS 7 that the 5S runs is 64 bit. The applications are going to be as well. (Remember, apple packages multiple applications versions into one app, so there won't be any 32 bit apps running on the 5s.) The real reason for it, though, is the hardware that we've yet to see that WILL take advantage of it. Apple is notorious for spreading components throughout different models, which not all of them are able to take advantage of. The 5s is no different. There may also be differences that make 64 bit useful that apple simply hasn't revealed yet. But its certainly not marketing fluff.

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    Default Re: Snapdragon 800 Vs Apple A7

    Quote Originally Posted by JHBThree View Post
    I think you're confused. Apple isn't including it for improvements now, they're including them for later. The version of iOS 7 that the 5S runs is 64 bit. The applications are going to be as well. (Remember, apple packages multiple applications versions into one app, so there won't be any 32 bit apps running on the 5s.) The real reason for it, though, is the hardware that we've yet to see that WILL take advantage of it. Apple is notorious for spreading components throughout different models, which not all of them are able to take advantage of. The 5s is no different. There may also be differences that make 64 bit useful that apple simply hasn't revealed yet. But its certainly not marketing fluff.

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
    I am far from being confused. This is about understanding what 64bit computing in general means. That is something that doesn't change just because Apple decided to include it in there latest Iphone. 64 bit computing is about how large a data set can be processed at once. If the phones hardware can't really utilize that increased resource then it is simply for marketing.

    My point was that having a 64 bit OS and 64 bit apps on a phone with 1-2 GB of ram and other resources that don't go beyond 4GB of addressable space is useless. So not even the newest Iphone 5s will see any advantage from it. Until that happens it is a marketing stunt. It isn't like this is a PC or Server that can be customized, and there might be some unexpected potential to exploit it later. On a phone or tablets in which all of the system resources are set the upgrade to 64bit OS doesn't do anything unless the hardware needs it at the same time. Currently the only piece in the Iphone 5s that doe is the CPU.

    Don't get me wrong I don't think it is really a bad thing they have moved to 64 bit computing, it is good to be prepared, but the hardware that is in the Iphone 5s wont' see some magical improvement because it supports 64 bit computing. Your assertion that there won't be any 32 bit apps on the Iphone 5s is also wrong as if third party apps aren't updated and compiled for 64bit then there are. There are also some consequences to moving to 64 bit computing. The first and biggest one is increased resource usage if you don't have the hardware platform that really needs it. The second big one is potential hit in performance when running 32 bit apps in that environment.

    Until they release a device really has all the hardware needed to fully utilize it it is simply for marketing and to say "Hey we have the first 64 bit Mobile platform".

    Please keep in mind I didn't say anything about the A7's raw performance. I will wait for some decent Real World test to validate that, and I suspect it will be a great performer. I was speaking directly to the effect of the new phone doing 64 bit computing.
    Last edited by Craig King; 09-11-2013 at 05:00 AM.
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    Default Re: Snapdragon 800 Vs Apple A7

    Sigh.

    Focusing on ram limitations is what was part of the concept of why Windows went to 64 bit.

    The N64 was name such because it had a 64bit processor, yet the system only had 4 mega, yes megabytes of ram. For more intense games you had to buy this ram expansion pack that took you to a whole 8 megabytes of ram. That still irks me to this day.

    64bit processors can handle a wider datapath so you can process more data faster at the same time. Calculations can be pulled in faster chunks.
    64bit processors can handle larger integers, larger numbers means more complex calculations at a faster rate. Because the integers I am referring to are involving strings of bits.
    Then 64bit can handle larger memory address, yes this can mean ram, but it can also take in larger chunks of memory to process within its own pipeline and cache.

    So it wasn't just about ram. 64bit processing did help with that limitation but there was much more with it.

    Apple going to 64 bit also did a couple other things.

    It gave them a processor to handle biometric calculations better(Fingerprint Sensor). Also encryption technologies like high level vpns for governmental agencies require a heavy workload, so that was part of this switch as well.

    But yes 64 bit processor helps a lot outside of just ram.

    By the way, a lot of mid tier video cards are 192-256 bit cards. Yet most of them only come with 1-2gb of ram. The Geforce 780 only has 3gb of ram but is a 384bit card.

    Why go through all that if it wasn't going to help processing at all.
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    Default Re: Snapdragon 800 Vs Apple A7

    Quote Originally Posted by JHBThree View Post
    I think you're confused. Apple isn't including it for improvements now, they're including them for later. The version of iOS 7 that the 5S runs is 64 bit. The applications are going to be as well. (Remember, apple packages multiple applications versions into one app, so there won't be any 32 bit apps running on the 5s.) The real reason for it, though, is the hardware that we've yet to see that WILL take advantage of it. Apple is notorious for spreading components throughout different models, which not all of them are able to take advantage of. The 5s is no different. There may also be differences that make 64 bit useful that apple simply hasn't revealed yet. But its certainly not marketing fluff.

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
    iOS apps have to be updated to support 64bit otherwise they will still be based on 32bit and there for not optimized.
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    Default Re: Snapdragon 800 Vs Apple A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig King View Post
    I am far from being confused. This is about understanding what 64bit computing in general means. That is something that doesn't change just because Apple decided to include it in there latest Iphone. 64 bit computing is about how large a data set can be processed at once. If the phones hardware can't really utilize that increased resource then it is simply for marketing.

    My point was that having a 64 bit OS and 64 bit apps on a phone with 1-2 GB of ram and other resources that don't go beyond 4GB of addressable space is useless. So not even the newest Iphone 5s will see any advantage from it. Until that happens it is a marketing stunt. It isn't like this is a PC or Server that can be customized, and there might be some unexpected potential to exploit it later. On a phone or tablets in which all of the system resources are set the upgrade to 64bit OS doesn't do anything unless the hardware needs it at the same time. Currently the only piece in the Iphone 5s that doe is the CPU.

    Don't get me wrong I don't think it is really a bad thing they have moved to 64 bit computing, it is good to be prepared, but the hardware that is in the Iphone 5s wont' see some magical improvement because it supports 64 bit computing. Your assertion that there won't be any 32 bit apps on the Iphone 5s is also wrong as if third party apps aren't updated and compiled for 64bit then there are. There are also some consequences to moving to 64 bit computing. The first and biggest one is increased resource usage if you don't have the hardware platform that really needs it. The second big one is potential hit in performance when running 32 bit apps in that environment.

    Until they release a device really has all the hardware needed to fully utilize it it is simply for marketing and to say "Hey we have the first 64 bit Mobile platform".

    Please keep in mind I didn't say anything about the A7's raw performance. I will wait for some decent Real World test to validate that, and I suspect it will be a great performer. I was speaking directly to the effect of the new phone doing 64 bit computing.
    Which is why I chose Windows 8 64bit, I have 16GB of RAM on my Notebook since I treat it like a mobile desktop. Apple is all about spin control and razzle dazzle with no real substance. ifans hear 64bit and say oooh, ahhhh faster and better. It's not.
  10. #10  

    Default Re: Snapdragon 800 Vs Apple A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptor007 View Post
    iOS apps have to be updated to support 64bit otherwise they will still be based on 32bit and there for not optimized.
    There is no updating...

    It doesn't work like that.

    Only thing Apple is asking us to do is update our icons and look and feel to match with IOS7.
  11. #11  

    Default Re: Snapdragon 800 Vs Apple A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptor007 View Post
    iOS apps have to be updated to support 64bit otherwise they will still be based on 32bit and there for not optimized.
    In order for them to be optimized for iPhone 5s, they will have to be updated. The SDK will make it an easy process. (Infinity blade took two hours, for example, and that's a huge app) Literally all they have to do is compile their app and they'll be set.
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    Default Re: Snapdragon 800 Vs Apple A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptor007 View Post
    Which is why I chose Windows 8 64bit, I have 16GB of RAM on my Notebook since I treat it like a mobile desktop. Apple is all about spin control and razzle dazzle with no real substance. ifans hear 64bit and say oooh, ahhhh faster and better. It's not.
    It is better. You ignore reality when you say it isn't.

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    Default Re: Snapdragon 800 Vs Apple A7

    Ok, I have two build two binaries if I am targeting IOS6.

    If I am making a new app with IOS7 it will build both binaries automatically.

    Apple prefers that you update your IOS 6 app to IOS 7 first then build the binaries.

    The big changes is if you use any assembly language code in your app, that will have to be completely rewritten to use the new instruction set.
  14. #14  

    Default Re: Snapdragon 800 Vs Apple A7

    That isn't a fair comparison at all in your last point. The GTX 780, along with most recent graphics cards are using GDDR5 memory and as such it is fundamentally different from the DRR3 memory used in PCs and the LPDDR3 used in smartphones such as the Galaxy S4. GDDR5 is paired with controllers of a nominal 32-bit (16 bit each for input and output),whereas the CPU's memory controller is 64-bit per channel. A GPU can utilise any number of 32-bit I/O's depending upon application ( 2 for 64-bit bus, 4 for 128-bit, 6 for 192-bit, 8 for 256-bit, 12 for 384-bit etc... rendering your point about the GTX 780 only using 3GB despite running at 384-bits void. Though I am not tech literate enough to discuss the implications of a 64 bit system and it's memory consumption I thought this was worth pointing out.
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    Default Re: Snapdragon 800 Vs Apple A7

    Quote Originally Posted by 123123c123 View Post
    That isn't a fair comparison at all in your last point. The GTX 780, along with most recent graphics cards are using GDDR5 memory and as such it is fundamentally different from the DRR3 memory used in PCs and the LPDDR3 used in smartphones such as the Galaxy S4. GDDR5 is paired with controllers of a nominal 32-bit (16 bit each for input and output),whereas the CPU's memory controller is 64-bit per channel. A GPU can utilise any number of 32-bit I/O's depending upon application ( 2 for 64-bit bus, 4 for 128-bit, 6 for 192-bit, 8 for 256-bit, 12 for 384-bit etc... rendering your point about the GTX 780 only using 3GB despite running at 384-bits void. Though I am not tech literate enough to discuss the implications of a 64 bit system and it's memory consumption I thought this was worth pointing out.
    Point was the speed of data consumption not just the amount that can be utilized.

    Great post btw.
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    Default Re: Snapdragon 800 Vs Apple A7

    Something to keep in mind is the iPhone 5s will be supported for at least the next 2-3 years, so it's hardware needs to be built with that in mind.
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    Default Re: Snapdragon 800 Vs Apple A7

    Quote Originally Posted by JHBThree View Post
    It is better. You ignore reality when you say it isn't.

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
    Disagree with you. I have owned a very significant amount of apple related tech, iMac, MBP, MBA, ipod touch, iphone, ipads, etc over the last 10 years. I have had similar issues with apple products that I have had with Windows, WindowsPhone, Android, and any other OS, mobile or desktop. To say I am ignoring reality is simply not true. Ignoring the BS that apple pushes is definitely true.
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    Default Re: Snapdragon 800 Vs Apple A7

    Quote Originally Posted by eawortman View Post
    Something to keep in mind is the iPhone 5s will be supported for at least the next 2-3 years, so it's hardware needs to be built with that in mind.
    Apple builds on an N+1 basis, the current year + 1 more year. After that your iOS features start to get cut significantly, based on prior iOS updates and while they can say in their pie chart about fragmentation or OS update adoption what they are NOT saying is how iPhone 3G, 4 or iPad 2 and 3 did not get the full iOS update that iPhone 5 did There were parts that they cut but still called it iOS X for whatever iteration it was.
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    Default Re: Snapdragon 800 Vs Apple A7

    Quote Originally Posted by JHBThree View Post
    It is better. You ignore reality when you say it isn't.

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
    The most important 64-bit app Apple will be releasing for the A7 is the one for the Reality Distortion Field. It'll be a free upgrade and will offer 57x more reality distortion than previous generations. It seems like the current version is working just fine though.

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    Default Re: Snapdragon 800 Vs Apple A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptor007 View Post
    Disagree with you. I have owned a very significant amount of apple related tech, iMac, MBP, MBA, ipod touch, iphone, ipads, etc over the last 10 years. I have had similar issues with apple products that I have had with Windows, WindowsPhone, Android, and any other OS, mobile or desktop. To say I am ignoring reality is simply not true. Ignoring the BS that apple pushes is definitely true.
    Moving to a 64 bit os is not BS. That's the reality you're ignoring.

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
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    Default Re: Snapdragon 800 Vs Apple A7

    Quote Originally Posted by JHBThree View Post
    Moving to a 64 bit os is not BS. That's the reality you're ignoring.

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
    I wouldn't say that moving to 64 bit is BS, but you will not see tangible benefits from it for years if ever. In the scope of the keynote, Apple is doing what they do best (although its not only Apple that does this) and trying to pull the wool over the eyes of our less tech savvy friends.

    Bottom line is that you need 64bit really for only two things.
    1) A large total memory pool
    2) A high precision, 64 bit, data type (without taking huge performance penalties)

    Mobile devices, for the foreseeable future, will not need either of those two things and here is why:
    1) Looking at those together the only thing that needs them both is STEM (Science, Tech, Engineering, and Math) related tasks. Modeling and simulation of systems, processes, etc.These types of tasks take tons of memory and require very high precision to provide accurate results. These tasks will not be done on mobile devices for the foreseeable future if ever.

    2) Looking at a large total memory pool, excluding point 1 above, the main driver of this is multitasking/productivity and to a lesser degree gaming. Breaking this up by each category we see the following:
    a) Mobile Devices don't lend themselves to heavy duty multitasking or heavy duty productivity. By heavy duty i mean enough to really push your need for a large memory pool beyond 4GB. If you are doing that kind of heavy duty multitasking or productivity tasks you are most likely going to prefer the workflow behind a multi-monitor PC(in the general sense, Apple included)
    B) The key driver for a large memory pool when gaming is screen resolution and graphics quality. you need both a high resolution screen and a GPU that can pump out very high quality graphics at that high resolution to start to need a large memory pool for gaming. High resolution is starting to make its way into mobile devices (1080p does not count as high res for gaming memory purposes, I'm talking 2K and up), but the graphics quality is still way behind PC's for example even at only 1080P. Because of this the amount of RAM you need is not all that much, certainly less than 4GB.

    I just can't see mobile devices in their current state making use of a 64bit processor architecture.

    edit: I was thinking, after the fact, that maybe encoding video could potentially benefit from 64bit, but then I remembered that mobile device SOCs always have an ASIC that is specifically used for this and is separate from the general compute processor. So a 64bit general compute processor wouldn't help that.
    Last edited by Auzo; 09-11-2013 at 08:35 PM.
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    Default Re: Snapdragon 800 Vs Apple A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Auzo View Post
    I wouldn't say that moving to 64 bit is BS, but you will not see tangible benefits from it for years if ever. In the scope of the keynote, Apple is doing what they do best (although its not only Apple that does this) and trying to pull the wool over the eyes of our less tech savvy friends.

    Bottom line is that you need 64bit really for only two things.
    1) A large total memory pool
    2) A high precision, 64 bit, data type (without taking huge performance penalties)

    Mobile devices, for the foreseeable future, will not need either of those two things and here is why:
    1) Looking at those together the only thing that needs them both is STEM (Science, Tech, Engineering, and Math) related tasks. Modeling and simulation of systems, processes, etc.These types of tasks take tons of memory and require very high precision to provide accurate results. These tasks will not be done on mobile devices for the foreseeable future if ever.

    2) Looking at a large total memory pool, excluding point 1 above, the main driver of this is multitasking/productivity and to a lesser degree gaming. Breaking this up by each category we see the following:
    a) Mobile Devices don't lend themselves to heavy duty multitasking or heavy duty productivity. By heavy duty i mean enough to really push your need for a large memory pool beyond 4GB. If you are doing that kind of heavy duty multitasking or productivity tasks you are most likely going to prefer the workflow behind a multi-monitor PC(in the general sense, Apple included)
    B) The key driver for a large memory pool when gaming is screen resolution and graphics quality. you need both a high resolution screen and a GPU that can pump out very high quality graphics at that high resolution to start to need a large memory pool for gaming. High resolution is starting to make its way into mobile devices (1080p does not count as high res for gaming memory purposes, I'm talking 2K and up), but the graphics quality is still way behind PC's for example even at only 1080P. Because of this the amount of RAM you need is not all that much, certainly less than 4GB.

    I just can't see mobile devices in their current state making use of a 64bit processor architecture.

    edit: I was thinking, after the fact, that maybe encoding video could potentially benefit from 64bit, but then I remembered that mobile device SOCs always have an ASIC that is specifically used for this and is separate from the general compute processor. So a 64bit general compute processor wouldn't help that.
    VPN transmission will benefit from 64 bit computing.

    Encryption of data performance will benefit from 64 bit computing(i.e. your fingerprint being stored on the device).

    Biometric accuracy (Fingerprint scanning) will benefit from 64bit computing.

    There will be boosts in floating point and general purpose calculations.

    That is basically it.
  23. #23  

    Default Re: Snapdragon 800 Vs Apple A7

    One more thing I like to add.

    I think the Note 3 is still superior in every way versus the iPhone 5s.

    I also think that the Note 3 is in a different market than the 5s, I think a better comparison would be the iPhone 5s with the G2 or any upcoming Snapdragon 800 device.
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    Default Re: Snapdragon 800 Vs Apple A7

    Totally doesn't answer the question for the thread, but hey fun info anyways. Just ran the 720p 3dmark test on both my note 2 and my ipad 4. Note 2 ice storm scores is 3308 while ipad 4 scores is 9360. Both were fully restarted before I ran the test. Based on the antutu scores I saw for the snapdragon 800, it's about 3 times faster than the note 2, so that brings it on par with the ipad 4, roughly. We'll have to wait until someone does a definitive test.
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    Default Re: Snapdragon 800 Vs Apple A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Zergslayer69 View Post
    Totally doesn't answer the question for the thread, but hey fun info anyways. Just ran the 720p 3dmark test on both my note 2 and my ipad 4. Note 2 ice storm scores is 3308 while ipad 4 scores is 9360. Both were fully restarted before I ran the test. Based on the antutu scores I saw for the snapdragon 800, it's about 3 times faster than the note 2, so that brings it on par with the ipad 4, roughly. We'll have to wait until someone does a definitive test.
    After actually watching the whole iPhone keynote, I must say, there is no way the Note 3 will win a 3dMark shootout with the iPhone 5S. The graphics and loading speed of Infinity Blade 3 really did look console quality, best I have seen on a mobile device.
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