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  1. Thread Author  Thread Author    #1  

    Default Why 16mp and 4K video matters

    I see a lot of people championing the notion that 4mp is plenty for "most people" - 16mp sensors are overkill and 4K video is completely useless. Unless you are constantly cropping (in which case, they say, you are a terrible photographer and should learn how to frame a picture properly), 4mp is all you need. Samsung is just playing the MP marketing game. And almost no one has a 4K display, so that's a total waste of time.

    They are wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

    In fact, I do crop, straighten, and reframe my pictures. All the time. I haven't posted a picture on social media without some post processing since I installed Pixlr. I depend on having more picture information than I need do I can create the exact picture I want. I could never live with 4mp.

    But most people don't do that. Most people just take a picture and post it. They don't use Pixlr or Snapseed. So why in the world do they need more than 4mp?

    Because when people can't get close enough to the action (which happens all the time), people use the digital zoom feature. All the time. And if you want to zoom without horrible artifacts and loss of detail, you need to start with a lot of pixels. Most people don't do post processing, but using the digital zoom feature (which is very commonly used) is basically cropping before taking the picture. And that's why for "most people", 4mp ain't gonna cut it.

    For this same reason, 4K video allows you to zoom in without the picture turning into a blurry mess. For me, being able to get higher MP captures while recording and higher MP screenshots post recording is a big plus. I don't use digital zoom when I take pictures because I crop them in Pixlr. But if I want to get closer while shooting video, I always use digital zoom.

    So is 4mp good enough for "most people"? Maybe in 2009 - but in 2014? I don't think so.
    atg284 likes this.
  2. #2  

    Default Re: Why 16mp and 4K video matters

    Ummm not sure why someone would zoom in on a 4K video that wasn't recorded using OIS. Unless it was recorded using a tripod, the amount of shake/vibration would become extremely noticeable as you zoom further in. As for zooming and cropping photos, any approach other than what Nokia implements, is not worth bothering with. That of course applies to the ones who claim to take the photographic abilities of mobile phones seriously. Anything less than the Nokia 41MP PureView is not good enough if zooming and cropping are important.

    Posted via Android Central App
  3. Thread Author  Thread Author    #3  

    Default Re: Why 16mp and 4K video matters

    The zoomed/cropped image or video may meet to your exacting standards and are therefore equally worthless, but I'll take some shake as a trade off to resolve detail. And there's no way a cropped 4mp image looks the same as a cropped 16mp image. That's not even debatable.
  4. #4  

    Default

    Huh? What details can you resolve in a shaky video? How is that possible, being that you'd have a difficult time maintaining a focal point during viewing. Who would debate 100% crops from a 4MP vs a16MP sensor? I'm not understanding that statement. Unless we're talking about the Pureview technology, I wonder why someone would settle for an inferior sensor it they want to crop images from a cellphone camera and have serious expectations of the results.

    Posted via Android Central App
  5. Thread Author  Thread Author    #5  

    Default Re: Why 16mp and 4K video matters

    The post is about why a 16mp is better for most people than a 4mp camera. If you don't think a cropped 16mp image is good enough, that's your opinion, but it's still going to look better than a cropped 4mp image.

    And I have used zoom with 1080p video. It's not as bad as you think it is, and at least I can make out faces that way. Without the zoom, you can't resolve any details.
  6. #6  

    Default Re: Why 16mp and 4K video matters

    If the camera on the M8 is sufficient for someone who owns it, that's fantastic. You have every right to be okay with your purchase. If you're going to debate that it's better than other cameras, namely the S5, then you're wasting your time. Come to terms with the fact that it was a huge error on HTCs part and expect nothing short of laughter if you're going to partake in the "my phone is better than yours" convos that waste everyone's time.

    Also, arguing that it's just a smartphone and people carry DSLRs instead is the most hilarious counter argument out there.

    Posted via Android Central App
    Premium1 likes this.
  7. #7  

    Default Re: Why 16mp and 4K video matters

    Quote Originally Posted by Adranalyne View Post
    If the camera on the M8 is sufficient for someone who owns it, that's fantastic. You have every right to be okay with your purchase. If you're going to debate that it's better than other cameras, namely the S5, then you're wasting your time. Come to terms with the fact that it was a huge error on HTCs part and expect nothing short of laughter if you're going to partake in the "my phone is better than yours" convos that waste everyone's time.

    Also, arguing that it's just a smartphone and people carry DSLRs instead is the most hilarious counter argument out there.

    Posted via Android Central App
    No one debated or implied that the M8 camera is better than anything. I specifically stated that no one would argue a 4MP image vs 16MP @100% crop, as the 16MP will be superior.

    No one stated or implied that people carry around or should carry around a DSLR.

    What are you talking about? Where did you get those claims from based on any of my responses.

    What I do find a little humorous or ironic, is that owners of devices aside from the 808 Pureview or Nokia Lumia 1020 would debate what their device is capable of when it comes to photo quality and the end results from cropping.

    Posted via Android Central App
  8. Thread Author  Thread Author    #8  

    Default Re: Why 16mp and 4K video matters

    I was describing a very common use case for most users (digital zooming) where 16mp would clearly be superior to 4mp.

    For some reason, you feel the need to derail that point because you want everyone to know that cropping a smart phone camera image is dumb unless you have a Pureview camera. I think you're dead wrong on that point, but it has nothing to do with whether or not most people can get practical use from a 16mp camera over a 4mp camera.
  9. #9  

    Default Re: Why 16mp and 4K video matters

    Quote Originally Posted by Habiib View Post
    No one debated or implied that the M8 camera is better than anything. I specifically stated that no one would argue a 4MP image vs 16MP @100% crop, as the 16MP will be superior.

    No one stated or implied that people carry around or should carry around a DSLR.

    What are you talking about? Where did you get those claims from based on any of my responses.

    What I do find a little humorous or ironic, is that owners of devices aside from the 808 Pureview or Nokia Lumia 1020 would debate what their device is capable of when it comes to photo quality and the end results from cropping.

    Posted via Android Central App
    I don't remember making those comments to you specifically. Hence no quote of your comments or mentioning your username. It was more of a statement to people who may jump in.

    Posted via Android Central App
  10. #10  
    Kevin O'Quinn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why 16mp and 4K video matters

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobravision View Post
    I was describing a very common use case for most users (digital zooming) where 16mp would clearly be superior to 4mp.

    For some reason, you feel the need to derail that point because you want everyone to know that cropping a smart phone camera image is dumb unless you have a Pureview camera. I think you're dead wrong on that point, but it has nothing to do with whether or not most people can get practical use from a 16mp camera over a 4mp camera.
    It depends on how the digital zooming is implemented. Nokia (with the 808 and 1020) advertise a lossless zoom because of how they implemented it. Basically, they are pixel binning. We don't know if that's how Samsung is doing it or not.

    As a somewhat unscientific test, I just took two pictures with my Nexus 5. On one, I did the max 4x digital zoom and snapped it. On the other I didn't zoom at all. Then I zoomed in (to simulate cropping) to the same area of the pic as the digital zoomed in pic. Guess what looked better? The cropped portion of the pic that didn't use digital zoom at all.
    Kevin F.I.M.T.K. O'Quinn Esq.
  11. #11  

    Default Re: Why 16mp and 4K video matters

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobravision View Post
    I see a lot of people championing the notion that 4mp is plenty for "most people" - 16mp sensors are overkill and 4K video is completely useless. Unless you are constantly cropping (in which case, they say, you are a terrible photographer and should learn how to frame a picture properly), 4mp is all you need. Samsung is just playing the MP marketing game. And almost no one has a 4K display, so that's a total waste of time.

    They are wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

    In fact, I do crop, straighten, and reframe my pictures. All the time. I haven't posted a picture on social media without some post processing since I installed Pixlr. I depend on having more picture information than I need do I can create the exact picture I want. I could never live with 4mp.

    But most people don't do that. Most people just take a picture and post it. They don't use Pixlr or Snapseed. So why in the world do they need more than 4mp?

    Because when people can't get close enough to the action (which happens all the time), people use the digital zoom feature. All the time. And if you want to zoom without horrible artifacts and loss of detail, you need to start with a lot of pixels. Most people don't do post processing, but using the digital zoom feature (which is very commonly used) is basically cropping before taking the picture. And that's why for "most people", 4mp ain't gonna cut it.

    For this same reason, 4K video allows you to zoom in without the picture turning into a blurry mess. For me, being able to get higher MP captures while recording and higher MP screenshots post recording is a big plus. I don't use digital zoom when I take pictures because I crop them in Pixlr. But if I want to get closer while shooting video, I always use digital zoom.

    So is 4mp good enough for "most people"? Maybe in 2009 - but in 2014? I don't think so.
    It's funny how the s5 "wasn't much of an upgrade..." yet the HTC m8 launches with cameras that take fuzzy unfocused pictures and it's genius.
    iPhone 6+ & Galaxy Note 4 user. Google Glass Explorer.
  12. #12  

    Default Re: Why 16mp and 4K video matters

    Quote Originally Posted by deadp1xel View Post
    It's funny how the s5 "wasn't much of an upgrade..." yet the HTC m8 launches with cameras that take fuzzy unfocused pictures and it's genius.
    Because "OMG METAL".

    Posted via Android Central App
  13. #13  

    Default Re: Why 16mp and 4K video matters

    Obviously it matters no matter how you look at it. I know too high MP is not necessarily good thing when pixel size gets too small. It will cause high noise and less light sensitivity. But going too low like 4MP, you don't have any headroom for zooming/cropping as it will be badly pixelated let alone loss of raw sharpness. There are reasons why today's camera no longer uses 4MP sensors no matter what the pixel size is. HTC fans are simply in denial when they defend M8 camera sensor. Of course it can be used fine for uploading to FB, twitter if that's all you do. But still...

    I think 12~14MP is about sweet spot for phone camera sensor but it seems samsung applied some technology like ISOCELL to make 16MP work just as well.
  14. #14  
    Kevin O'Quinn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why 16mp and 4K video matters

    Quote Originally Posted by deadp1xel View Post
    It's funny how the s5 "wasn't much of an upgrade..." yet the HTC m8 launches with cameras that take fuzzy unfocused pictures and it's genius.
    Whoa I haven't seen these examples. Can you link them please? (assuming they're here on the forums, otherwise just tell me where please)
    Kevin F.I.M.T.K. O'Quinn Esq.
  15. #15  
    Kevin O'Quinn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why 16mp and 4K video matters

    Quote Originally Posted by Jdroids View Post
    Obviously it matters no matter how you look at it. I know too high MP is not necessarily good thing when pixel size gets too small. It will cause high noise and less light sensitivity. But going too low like 4MP, you don't have any headroom for zooming/cropping as it will be badly pixelated let alone loss of raw sharpness. There are reasons why today's camera no longer uses 4MP sensors no matter what the pixel size is. HTC fans are simply in denial when they defend M8 camera sensor. Of course it can be used fine for uploading to FB, twitter if that's all you do. But still...

    I think 12~14MP is about sweet spot for phone camera sensor but it seems samsung applied some technology like ISOCELL to make 16MP work just as well.
    That is me. That's 99.9% of what I do with the pics I take on my phone. If Samsung can make their sensor/camera software perform just as well (i.e. FAST) as HTC and the pics look better in all situations than this is a win IMO. And I like HTC devices a lot, the aesthetics are a big selling point for me.

    So many of the samples I've seen have looked great, but the one I played with in Best Buy had focus issues. I hope that was an outlier given the samples I've seen. And only one review I've seen/read has bothered to mention the focus speed, and that was The Next Web. I hope to hear more about that soon. I did order an M8, but I have 14 days to decide. I'll get it tomorrow. I'm not locked in to it, though.
    Kevin F.I.M.T.K. O'Quinn Esq.
  16. #16  

    Default Re: Why 16mp and 4K video matters

    Quote Originally Posted by deadp1xel View Post
    It's funny how the s5 "wasn't much of an upgrade..." yet the HTC m8 launches with cameras that take fuzzy unfocused pictures and it's genius.
    Fuzzy unfocused pictures? I'm not sure if you are implying that it (M8) is attempting something similar to what a Lytro camera does (which isn't remotely true) or its ability to generate a post-process bokeh effect via selectable focal points (which is already implemented by other smartphones to various degrees).

    BTW, if anyone feels that the S5 wasn't much of an upgrade, then I'm not sure how that's even possible. Nearly every aspect of the phone has been improved and new functionality was introduced in the latest iteration.

    Posted via Android Central App
  17. #17  

    Default Re: Why 16mp and 4K video matters

    Quote Originally Posted by Jdroids View Post
    Obviously it matters no matter how you look at it. I know too high MP is not necessarily good thing when pixel size gets too small. It will cause high noise and less light sensitivity. But going too low like 4MP, you don't have any headroom for zooming/cropping as it will be badly pixelated let alone loss of raw sharpness. There are reasons why today's camera no longer uses 4MP sensors no matter what the pixel size is. HTC fans are simply in denial when they defend M8 camera sensor. Of course it can be used fine for uploading to FB, twitter if that's all you do. But still...

    I think 12~14MP is about sweet spot for phone camera sensor but it seems samsung applied some technology like ISOCELL to make 16MP work just as well.
    To be clear, I was under the impression that HTC fans were in denial because they believe that the camera can take good pictures. It seemed like the general concensus was that if one cannot zoom in on or crop a picture without losing too much detail, then the camera is inferior. In the case of the HTC M8, it is inferior to any device that has a 5MP or higher, if zooming and cropping quality are the main areas of concern.

    Posted via Android Central App
  18. #18  

    Default Re: Why 16mp and 4K video matters

    I have never taken any photo on a smartphone while zooming in. No matter what phone camera you take a zoomed photo, that is not pretty. Every choice has is its positive side and it's negative side. For me 4MP is enough. If I want to take big photos I'll have to take my camera with me. I'm amazed by the m8, but if HTC just put in a 12MP+ camera in it, they could compete better with the others. It's all about specs these days, not about usage. We like to see a big list of specs (gimmicks) , even if most of the things never get used.

    Verstuurd vanaf mijn HTC One met Tapatalk
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  19. #19  

    Default Re: Why 16mp and 4K video matters

    Long story short;

    4MP's suitable for viewing on a phone's display.

    More megapixels count when zooming or outputting to a large external display.

    End of story.
    Sent from my Lenovo IdeaPad Y410P/HTC One running InsertCoin 2.5 Sense 6.
  20. #20  

    Default Re: Why 16mp and 4K video matters

    I had a 4MP camera back in 2003. That's over 11 years ago.
    If you think 4MP is enough, then it is. But I prefer to have the latest and greatest.
    S5 is my choice.
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    Jdroids likes this.

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