An open letter to the moderators of this forum

[Kevin OQuinn]

"Recognising this phenomenon, BA decided to conduct its own research to see what happened with its complaints procedure. Remarkably, they discovered that only 8% of customer complaints were ever registered with a customer services representative ? in other words, just the tip of the iceberg. Instead, 23% talked to the nearest employee, and a further 69% suffered in silence and did not tell anyone at BA. Had BA been basing its customer satisfaction on the number of complaints received they would have only been looking at a tiny part of the total picture."
Customer Complaints - They Are Just the Tip of The Iceberg!

What's interesting is that you didn't answer my question. I'm not playing the "link to an article game" today. You know what else you never hear about? All of the customers that had a great experience. Those are far less likely to speak up at all.

In my daily life I help run a small privately owned business. Five employees plus the owner. I know a little bit about customer service and customer satisfaction.

Also interesting is the fact that in this very thread there has been, for the most part, an even number of people praising the Mod team vs complaining. I suspect, but have not confirmed, that some of those complaining have run afoul of the forum rules.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

[madlaw1071]

What's interesting is that you didn't answer my question. I'm not playing the "link to an article game" today. You know what else you never hear about? All of the customers that had a great experience. Those are far less likely to speak up at all.

In my daily life I help run a small privately owned business. Five employees plus the owner. I know a little bit about customer service and customer satisfaction.

Also interesting is the fact that in this very thread there has been, for the most part, an even number of people praising the Mod team vs complaining. I suspect, but have not confirmed, that some of those complaining have run afoul of the forum rules.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta

A 50-50 ratio isn't much to brag about. Most business would be out of business at that rate. Just saying....

 

[Kevin OQuinn]

That is simply not true. Hopefully one of the moderators will confirm this to you. I do not want to single any moderator out at this point because this is a constructive thread and I don't want to derail it with perceived personal attacks or accusations.

I guess it depends on how strict a definition of "moderating in a thread" you want to use. Sure, we'll try to keep it on topic, and will say as much. We'll also try to not allow personal attacks. What we won't do is delete comments, issue warnings or infractions, close the thread, etc. If we feel any of that might need to happen we'll report the post just like a regular member.

Before you say it, Jerry is not a Mod.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

[Kevin OQuinn]

A 50-50 ratio isn't much to brag about. Most business would be out of business at that rate. Just saying....

I think you missed the point of what I was saying.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2

 

[madlaw1071]

I think you missed the point of what I was saying.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2

No, I got the point perfectly well.

 

[Kevin OQuinn]

There are at least two things that tick people about the AC mods:

1. Unlike most forums, the mods here actively participate and in some case agitate a thread all the while flashing the mod badge. We had a huge blow up a couple months ago when a mod that was a self professed HTC fan stirred up the S4 threads with accusations against Samsung and active argument with members attempting to defend Samsung. When conversations got heated, he flashed the mod badge.

2. I actively participate in the S4 and One threads and the mods are far more harsh towards S4 posters than One posters and hand out public discipline to S4 owners and let One posters off with a private admonishment if that. Even worse, the mods here say they will respond to PMs but they pick and choose what to respond to. For example, I was viciously attacked in a PM in a personal and unprovoked manner. I followed forum rules and didn't engage the poster but reported the post and PMed two mods. The offending poster(a One fan) received no warning or violation and the mods have ignored my PMs of protest.

FWIW

Your PM's have not been ignored. I've read them, from the multiple mods that have had to interact with you on various levels. You've also admitted to Jerry and myself that you get enjoyment out of "stirring the pot" so to speak.

Your first line "there are two things that tick people about the AC mods" should probably say "there are two things that tick ME about the AC mods".

Your issue specifically appears to be that we don't handle your complaints the way you would like us to. Which is fine. You don't know everything that goes on behind the scenes, or whether or not action was taken. And no, infraction point totals is not a good way to tell.

Didn't you also say that if we didn't handle your situation the way you wanted us to that you were going to resign from AC? So basically, you threatened to leave if you didn't get your way.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2

 

[Kevin OQuinn]

A 50-50 ratio isn't much to brag about. Most business would be out of business at that rate. Just saying....

No, I got the point perfectly well.

Then you should know that hearing from just as many satisfied customers as you do those that have issues is actually a good thing. It does not imply that half of your customers are dissatisfied, or that only half are satisfied.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2

 

[madlaw1071]

Your PM's have not been ignored. I've read them, from the multiple mods that have had to interact with you on various levels. You've also admitted to Jerry and myself that you get enjoyment out of "stirring the pot" so to speak.

Your first line "there are two things that tick people about the AC mods" should probably say "there are two things that tick ME about the AC mods".

Your issue specifically appears to be that we don't handle your complaints the way you would like us to. Which is fine. You don't know everything that goes on behind the scenes, or whether or not action was taken. And no, infraction point totals is not a good way to tell.

Didn't you also say that if we didn't handle your situation the way you wanted us to that you were going to resign from AC? So basically, you threatened to leave if you didn't get your way.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2

The PMs were indeed ignored and no one bothered to tell me what action was taken if any against the offender. The individual is still freely posting here without any public indication of discipline. Meanwhile, although I may stir the pot from time to time, I have never personally attacked anybody either in public nor in a private message.

And now you're violating your own rules by taking the contents of a private message that I sent and making them public all in the name of defending the site rather than moderating discussion.
Making a private message public is perhaps the single most offensive thing I've ever seen a mod do and perfectly illustrates the OP. Why would anyone ever PM a mod again?

Well done.

Posted via Android Central App

 

[Paul627g]

The PMs were indeed ignored and no one bothered to tell me what action was taken if any against the offender. The individual is still freely posting here without any public indication of discipline. Meanwhile, although I may stir the pot from time to time, I have never personally attacked anybody either in public nor in a private message.

And now you're violating your own rules by taking the contents of a private message that I sent and making them public all in the name of defending the site rather than moderating discussion.
Making a private message public is perhaps the single most offensive thing I've ever seen a mod do and perfectly illustrates the OP. Why would anyone ever PM a mod again?

Well done.

Posted via Android Central App

I responded fairly to your pm to a situation and in fact stuck by our rules of keeping things private. I mentioned that your issue was attended to with an another member and because you didn't see visual proof of a member being banned, infraction or points you responded by saying we weren't doing our job.

Since you want to air dirty laundry you and I had an encounter back a few months ago. I handled a situation and took it a little harder than I should of. I graciously reversed/down graded my handling of your situation. Now because things didn't go exactly your way this time around you point fingers and say we're bad.

But in the end I remained professional and tried to be fair regardless of how it's viewed by you or anyone else. But that's not good enough these days, because you seem to feel if you report something there should be action taken visually on everything. If we handled every reported post you alone sent in there would be a few dozen members banned under your own heavy handed standards.


Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using AC Forums mobile app

 

[tohio]

Your PM's have not been ignored. I've read them, from the multiple mods that have had to interact with you on various levels. You've also admitted to Jerry and myself that you get enjoyment out of "stirring the pot" so to speak.

Your first line "there are two things that tick people about the AC mods" should probably say "there are two things that tick ME about the AC mods".

Your issue specifically appears to be that we don't handle your complaints the way you would like us to. Which is fine. You don't know everything that goes on behind the scenes, or whether or not action was taken. And no, infraction point totals is not a good way to tell.

Didn't you also say that if we didn't handle your situation the way you wanted us to that you were going to resign from AC? So basically, you threatened to leave if you didn't get your way.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2

OK, this surpasses all the complaints, bad feeling and general unhappiness with the moderators on this forum. Kevin, you are constantly telling people to contact the moderators in a PM to discuss issues. Now it turns out those private messages are not private after all. How can the users of these forums trust the "contact the moderator in a PM" mantra if you are going to reveal the contents of those PMs in public? This is definitely one of the most egregious violations of a moderator's position and responsibility that I have seen. As to your belief that the members are generally happy with the moderation on this forum: the fact that this thread even exists should cause some soul searching by the moderating staff.

 

[Rule9]

Also interesting is the fact that in this very thread there has been, for the most part, an even number of people praising the Mod team vs complaining. I suspect, but have not confirmed, that some of those complaining have run afoul of the forum rules.

That's not really a fair thing to throw at those people and in my opinion bears some resemblance to profiling. I've seen all kinds of misbehavior from moderators both on mobile nations and many other other forums. People are people and there's good and bad apples everywhere. I used to moderate for Bioware Entertainment once upon a time many many moons ago and things were pretty much the same then as they are now. The difference being that misbehaving moderators generally are fired pretty quickly when the forums belong to a big company with an eye on customer retention. From my experience here's what I've seen from the bad apples both when I was a moderator and as a member of various forums in the years since:

power tripping: self explanatory.

hounding: By this I mean the practice of numerous moderators "red flagging" a forum member for criticizing overzealous moderation, ganging up on that member and then using the exact letter of the law with zero discretion or leeway to build up infraction points on them. It happens, and it's not subtle no matter how much the mods who engage in this practice attempt to deny it. I've seen it as a mod, and have seen it as a member for years, to this date. It's a reprehensible tactic, made worse by the fact that every forum has a "moderator eyes only" section wherein I've seen them high-5 each other when they do this and make disparaging remarks about that person like a group of high school bullies.

Back slapping: The practice of moderators liking/thanking each other's posts in instances when there is a disagreement between them and member(s). I understand the whole "solidarity" thing guys, but honestly I've always felt the optics of it sends a poor message.

One-sided pre-judgement: No offense but an example of this is in this very thread. Whenever I hear the words "I back up my moderator team fully" I cringe. The reason I cringe is that in a vast majority of cases that has more often than not translated into "You're presumed guilty and have a very small chance of me giving you a fair hearing no matter how unfair or heavy handed my moderator was."

I'm not accusing you of that, I'm simply reporting how I've seen that term pan out over the years. I can remember one case years ago where a forum administrator actually asked me to write a humble hat-in-hand "heartfelt" (his words) appeal to his mod team leader who basically behaved like a petulant child in order to revoke a ban. Needless to say that didn't happen. My logins and IP from that point forward all came from some European town I've never heard of.

Stepping in: In cases when there has been a disagreement between a mod and member in a thread, is it really necessary for a second mod to come in swinging as well when the first mod is fully capable of dealing with it? No. It is not. See points 1 and 2.

Anyway, I'm just passing time and blowing air. Forums and chatrooms have been this way ever since people have discovered they can speak differently to you from the guaranteed physical safety of the internet than they would in person. There is always going to be misbehavior from both members and moderators folks. It's one of the cardinal rules of the Internet. Either accept it, or have an infinite number of IP's and geographical locations at your disposal.

Overall I'd rate the Android Central mod team pretty good out of the other MN sites, and haven't really seen anything to indicate they're not pretty easy going.

 

[Jerry Hildenbrand]

If i come to a thread and tell you what I will do if you continue to do something, it is because I have had emails from other members sent to me personally about the behavior. During the day I'm too busy to respond to reported posts, as any of the moderators here can tell you, but my name is easy to click to send complaints to.

If I get called away because enough people tell me someone is acting like a jackass, I respond and consider it finished. If I said anything and didn't just click a button, that's because my best judgement said to NOT click the button on someone.

And sometimes, my judgement tells me to say nothing at all.

From now on, I'll be clicking that button EVERY time, for every valid complaint.

With well over 1 million members to keep happy, a handful aren't worth all this stress.

 

[madlaw1071]

I responded fairly to your pm to a situation and in fact stuck by our rules of keeping things private. I mentioned that your issue was attended to with an another member and because you didn't see visual proof of a member being banned, infraction or points you responded by saying we weren't doing our job.

Since you want to air dirty laundry you and I had an encounter back a few months ago. I handled a situation and took it a little harder than I should of. I graciously reversed/down graded my handling of your situation. Now because things didn't go exactly your way this time around you point fingers and say we're bad.

But in the end I remained professional and tried to be fair regardless of how it's viewed by you or anyone else. But that's not good enough these days, because you seem to feel if you report something there should be action taken visually on everything. If we handled every reported post you alone sent in there would be a few dozen members banned under your own heavy handed standards.


Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using AC Forums mobile app

You've put words in my mouth I never said, let alone you're now also revealing the alleged contents of private messages. My initial post mentioned no one by name and revealed no specific statements. You and Kevin have demonstrated in this thread that you are not to be trusted and if a member has a complaint it should be aired publicly so sunlight shines on what is said.

 

[The Hustleman]

Mods that post in threads never moderate that thread. Fact.

Posted via Android Central App

That's not true all the time...

In my one mod run in, I gave mine and many customers' opinion verbatim about a major carrier in a thread and a mod came hard at me complete with profanity. Even threatened to ban me for that.

He himself participated in that thread and still threatened me.


I'm not bitter about the hypocrisy (when you get on someone about breaking rules and you do the same yourself, what else do you call it?) but that alone proves your post false and not fact.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Paul627g]

You've put words in my mouth I never said, let alone you're now also revealing the alleged contents of private messages. My initial post mentioned no one by name and revealed no specific statements. You and Kevin have demonstrated in this thread that you are not to be trusted and if a member has a complaint it should be aired publicly so sunlight shines on what is said.

I'll be happy to continue this conversation via PM as I would of liked to do in the first place... SEE BELOW.

This was posted by myself in the thread that this current thread spawned from.. Again.. I tried to be a cool moderator and keep things done they way they should but we ended up here...

http://forums.androidcentral.com/sa...on-please-winner-one-vs-s4-2.html#post2897464

Hey all its very simple. If you have a question or complaint about something with a moderators action then please take it privately to PM with that moderator. Publicly discussing it isn't the way to handle things and trust me every moderator sees and is involved in the decisions and actions of everyone on the moderating team.

We're actually a decent bunch of people behind the badges and moderator titles that enjoy this stuff just like you do. We were just crazy enough to volunteer our services to help keep AC a cool and fun place.

Thanks everyone,

Paul
Forums Moderator

Sent from my Nexus 7 using AC Forums mobile app

For the record, I will not any longer respond to any requests to discuss publicly our practices. Its stated in our forum rules and guidelines that we prefer to discuss questions or problems with a situation involving moderating practices away from public and in private. Judging from my post I quoted above that request was ignored and we ended up here because not long after that was posted people debated against that and said that isn't how it should be done.

So my PM box is cleared out and open for business should anyone want to take me up on my offer to talk privately if they have a complaint.

Paul627g
Forums Moderator.

 

[meyerweb#CB]

If people hate the staff here so much. Why use this forum?

Because the members here have a tremendous amount of knowledge to share. Forums like this one take on a life of their own, well beyond what the forum "owners" contribute. They are a form of public discourse and information exchange and, frankly, the mods contribute relatively little most of the time. That's not intended as an insult, it's simple fact: the mods simply can't know as much as the thousands of members do collectively. I'm here because of the membership: to learn, and to share what I already know, and to help others.

As far as the mods, for the most part I find the forum to be well moderated, and the mods reasonable in their approach. There are times, however, where some the mods come on way too strong, and act as if their opinion is the only one that matters. That's not appropriate. Nor is it appropriate for the mods to be insulting toward members, but then act all offended and superior if someone questions or challenges them.

 

[The Hustleman]

Because the members here have a tremendous amount of knowledge to share. Forums like this one take on a life of their own, well beyond what the forum "owners" contribute. They are a form of public discourse and information exchange and, frankly, the mods contribute relatively little most of the time. That's not intended as an insult, it's simple fact: the mods simply can't know as much as the thousands of members do collectively. I'm here because of the membership: to learn, and to share what I already know, and to help others.

As far as the mods, for the most part I find the forum to be well moderated, and the mods reasonable in their approach. There are times, however, where some the mods come on way too strong, and act as if their opinion is the only one that matters. That's not appropriate. Nor is it appropriate for the mods to be insulting toward members, but then act all offended and superior if someone questions or challenges them.

Agreed.

I think Kevin does a great job and anther mod, i can't think of her name right now but she corrected me on something, did it politely, and I apologized publicly and we moved on from it.

Class act!

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

 

[meyerweb#CB]

I have not personally seen (yes, I do check) any Moderator "abuse" their power and silence someone just because they have a difference of opinion. If you have seen this, please either PM me or report the post. I promise that it will get my attention and appropriate action will be taken.

What I have seen is a moderator making inflammatory statements that are pretty much guaranteed to get an over the top response, and then delete posts or close threads because of that response, when the real issue was the mod's behavior. No, I can't point to any specific examples right now, but it's happened. If I see it again, I'll try to remember to bring it to your attention.

 

[BOSSY TEXAS CHICK]

Before you remove this thread ......

As a contributing member of AC (my fav and practically ONLY forum i stalk, er, um, visit...lol) i can most definitely see BOTH sides of this argument, as it certainly can not be an easy job to attempt to moderate people's internet comments i to ensure a pleasant experience for all Android Central Forum Attendees, especially in 2013, where sadly, it seems people are getting ruder by the minute, but at the same time, i too have often noticed sarcasm, uncalled for replies teetering on rude and sometimes just plain, "in your face" retorts from some mods on here. i think the difference is the mods have the ability to bounce them out, so the same "haters" don't stick around for long....

i know for myself i have sometimes been really enjoying a thread and then the next thing i know its closed by a Mod. due to comments that personally i found rather tame and barely could be interpreted as insulting, considering the hostility that's rampant in other areas of internet...

If someone one is downright insulting and hateful thats one thing, but maybe y'all could "move it" to a Trending or Probationary Category under "Posts Heating Up- Vote To Close It" or something similarly democratic.... Like on Amazon where if it gets negative votes it gets a "ppl voted this reply doesn't add to the discussion- SHOW ANYWAY" sorta thing....Just a thought : )

BTC

 

[Paul627g]

i know for myself i have sometimes been really enjoying a thread and then the next thing i know its closed by a Mod. due to comments that personally i found rather tame and barely could be interpreted as insulting, considering the hostility that's rampant in other areas of internet...

Just a general response here... Again many times things are removed or moderated due to their content by the forum software before they ever hit the thread. So as much as you believe you see everything or think it was closed due to a certain thing that maybe true but there is usually more to the puzzle.

If someone one is downright insulting and hateful thats one thing, but maybe y'all could "move it" to a Trending or Probationary Category under "Posts Heating Up- Vote To Close It" or something similarly democratic.... Like on Amazon where if it gets negative votes it gets a "ppl voted this reply doesn't add to the discussion- SHOW ANYWAY" sorta thing....Just a thought : )

Good suggestion and I'm sure we will all review this thread and what was said for some time. However taking situations that arise regardless of harsh or light and placing them in a sub forum section for a public voting or review would only add more fuel to the fire. Sure there would be those who legitimately comment and try to be objective but then you get those who look at that as a public firing squad to throw stones and lash out. In the end it eats up more moderator time which takes us away from concentrating on other important areas of the forums.

Thank you for the comments and suggestions. I know its hard in these situations to take me at face value but we do take everything said here and to us in private via PMs or among ourselves to heart. We take great pride in how big and successful Android Central and Android in general has become. Its due to you, me and everyone else who has spent hard earned money on the platform, technology and devices we discuss here daily. I take great pride in going to sleep each night knowing we have tried to do a good job for the forums and its members and wake up to the next day to see things running smooth and hopefully some great news on the blog side about something new and exciting to start the day!

Again if anyone has anything they would like to add and doesn't want to discuss it publicly then please feel free to PM me or anyone on the staff.

Hey guess what its the 4th of July.. Lets celebrate with our families, remember those who fought for our country and rights (no lets not turn this into a debate ) and enjoy some good food during those cook outs today.

Paul
Forums Moderator.