Is bump charging an HTC problem or does it exsist with all Android devices

**drumzalicious** · 11-10-2010, 04:55 PM

I know DINC and EVO users go through these bump charging issues but are they they only ones that have this problem?

I really like the android platform but this bump charging thing is ridiculous. Today was the worst though. I went to bed pretty early last night and put my phone on the charger. Got up to go to work and by the time I had gotten dressed and out the door my phone read 83% for the battery and I hadnt done anything but turn off the alarm and unplugged it.

Is there a fix for this other than doing the whole bump charging process?

Is it a hardware or software issue? If I root my device will that fix it?

**MrBigFeathers** · 11-10-2010, 05:28 PM

I think it's only the Incredible and the Evo. My wife has a MyTouch Slide (also made by HTC) and it charges to 100% and doesn't use the battery until it's unplugged. Same with my old G1 and the Droid 2 and Droid X.

**jdazzr** · 11-10-2010, 07:28 PM

my sister has a Eris, she has no problems at all. and i didnt know Evo had to bump also!?

**mclarryjr** · 11-10-2010, 07:45 PM

That was a pretty big drop in battery mine only drops to low 90's and I usually check my email to. I use a external charger and have my Siedio 1750 on that every morning so when I leave I just swap them out. I wish that it wasn't necessary but besides that I don't have a complaint about this phone. I had the D1 before my Dinc and it never needed to bump charge and I can't speak for any other HTC since this is my first.

**CRKhead** · 11-11-2010, 11:50 AM

My life is one long series of bumps now... However, with my 3500 battery, I only bump if I know I'm going to be heavily using the phone that day... Such a noticeable difference between a powered on charge and a bump charged battery in the DINC.

**juice1113#ac** · 11-22-2010, 08:35 AM

Seems like HTC could fix this issue with a software update. Hopefully they will.

**davidnc** · 11-22-2010, 09:21 AM

I got to where I didnt do the bump charge thing anymore anyhoo because it did not really add that much juice to my battery more of an mind thing.

Now having an external charger(charging dock/spare battery charger combo) and an 2150mah battery even makes that more of a non-issue for me

The dx never had that issue but thats about the only advantage it had over my incredible ,so HTC still the winner in my book .

**Q-fugee** · 11-22-2010, 10:13 AM

I've seen an awful lot of "bump charging" threads but they all lack two important things:

--Advice from actual Electrical Engineers specializing in batteries telling us this is a useful thing to do.
--Advice from actual Software Engineers specializing in monitoring and measuring telling us that putting faith in the stock android gas guage is a useful thing to do.

All the evidence from actual battery companies such as "Battery University" online suggest that bump charging is the new battery myth. Every battery has to have an associated myth (think Memory Effect) and bump charging seems to be Lithium Ion's myth du jour.

Also, everyone seems to be putting a lot of faith in a piece of software's ability to measure something that changes as it's measured. Anything above 90% is more than likely a guess based on temperature (also a guess) and time off charger. How accurate do you think the battery's internal circuitry combined with the phone's circuitry combined with the software's logic really is?

HTC could fix this with a software update -- show a full guage at anything over 95% after a few hours of charging when temp stabilizes and see if the complaints stop.

Short of that, download Juice Defender and stop worrying.

--Qfg

**MushroomStamp** · 11-22-2010, 12:04 PM

Well it's definetly not a myth. After the Froyo update, i was getting only to lunch time before both of my Dinc's were almost dead. When I learned and applied the Bump method, I was able to get a full day of life. 100% NOT a myth. I

**318sugarhill** · 11-22-2010, 01:00 PM

N

Originally Posted by Q-fugee

I've seen an awful lot of "bump charging" threads but they all lack two important things:

--Advice from actual Electrical Engineers specializing in batteries telling us this is a useful thing to do.
--Advice from actual Software Engineers specializing in monitoring and measuring telling us that putting faith in the stock android gas guage is a useful thing to do.

All the evidence from actual battery companies such as "Battery University" online suggest that bump charging is the new battery myth. Every battery has to have an associated myth (think Memory Effect) and bump charging seems to be Lithium Ion's myth du jour.

Also, everyone seems to be putting a lot of faith in a piece of software's ability to measure something that changes as it's measured. Anything above 90% is more than likely a guess based on temperature (also a guess) and time off charger. How accurate do you think the battery's internal circuitry combined with the phone's circuitry combined with the software's logic really is?

HTC could fix this with a software update -- show a full guage at anything over 95% after a few hours of charging when temp stabilizes and see if the complaints stop.

Short of that, download Juice Defender and stop worrying.

--Qfg

Not sure if you actually own a Dinc, but it is not a myth. Phone will die before the end of my work day without it if it is charged with the power on. Charge it with the phone powered off, and you get better results, but a bump charge will give you the max.

Do I know why it is like that? No, and I don't care either. I want it fixed. It is not made up, Not a myth. Love the phone, but the only real solution is an external charger.

**Q-fugee** · 11-22-2010, 01:48 PM

I do own an HTC android phone, thanks. Its battery life does drive me nuts. I also work with the Android source and know what your phone is doing when you think it's idle.

I appreciate your experiences, but these are anecdotes, not data. These anecdotes are not contolled for software behavior, which is the root cause of most battery problems (time w/o signal, background tasks, screen brightness, etc). A before-and-after testimonial is not as effective as side-by-side tests which control for all the other variables.

Have you tried Juice Defender? This app actually does monitor and turn off the software behavior that causes most idle battery drain, and does a good job at it.

Here's a nice primer on exactly why your Li-Ion battery behaves the way it does:

And they even talk about how easy it is to screw up the simple "gas gauge" calibration.

Here is exactly what's happening when you charge a Li-Ion battery:

Short answer: what people are calling "bump charging" is shortening your battery life by tricking the thermal protection and charging circuits. Basically, you are re-setting the baseline measurement the charging circuit uses to measure temperature and internal resistance, the two things that tell it when charging is done. Chargers can't directly measure "FULL" or "EMPTY." They measure temperature and resistance. And voltage, of course.

They know it's "EMPTY" when voltage hits a pre-set low and resistance falls below a baseline. They know "FULL" when voltage and resistance hit a pre-set point and they stop charging when temerature hits a pre-set point.

You are not over-charging or topping off your battery, you are just over-heating it at the end of its charging cycle when it's supposed to be on a cooler trickle charge. You may trick the gauge into showing "fuller."

Let me be clear: "bump charging" is a myth. No good will come of this. You will destroy your battery. Bad battery life is not a myth.

You could make the case that the baseline resistance established by the HTC charging circuit is wrong, and that the battery's thermal protection is too conservative, but not without controlled side-by-side tests. To date, HTC hasn't confirmed this.

The fix is for Google to start migrating the behavior that Juice Defender enforces into the core OS, in particular the radio stack and the display drivers.

If you don't want to use Juice Defender but wouldn't mind rooting your phone, there are several ROMs over at xda-developers that monkey with the radio stack and other idle behavior to prolong battery life. That's the second best bet until Google migrates some of these tricks to the actual OS core. Some of the better software tricks for prolonging battery life are patented by RIM, however.

To answer the OP's question: "Is it a hardware or software issue? If I root my device will that fix it?" It's a software issue. Yes, rooting can fix it if you're willing to flash a new ROM.

Please try Juice Defender first and report back. It beats bricking your phone or setting it on fire :-)

--Qfg

**PvilleComp** · 11-22-2010, 05:28 PM

My understanding of the issue was that the DInc and EVO problems were related to how the phone behaved after reaching 100% charge.

Basically, the problem simply stated, is that when the devices hit 100% they switch to using the battery and do not run off the plugged in power. So, after sitting idle for several hours on the dresser overnight at “100%,” when you unplug the device in the morning the battery meter will reset to actual battery charge and show 98%, 95% or whatever your phone uses during the idle period on the charger. This will obviously vary depending on what apps you have installed and running and how good coverage is in your area.

My solution to this has been to wake up, unplug, check e-mail and then plug it into the charger while I’m in the shower. By the time I’m sweet and clean – my phone is ready to go.

Anyway – I’m not trying to start anything, just clarifying my understanding of the problem.

I agree that “Overcharging” the battery on a regular basis is not a good thing, and of course it’s always a good idea to remove battery draining apps.

Hope this helps.

**Q-fugee** · 11-22-2010, 05:49 PM

Yes, that's accurate. You're never running on AC, just draining slower than charging. Then you unplug at that unfortunate point on the curve before it cools down, drains down, and times out before charging kicks in again. It is possible to unplug right at what it says is 100. What's unique to the HTC is how they calculate 98 or 95% after you unplug. If they said 100 like Samsung does you'd never know the difference. It's all a guess anyway, with a big saftey margin built in.

Unless they admit their charger or the battery's circuit is way way off. But I didn't see any of that on HTC's website yet.

Anyhoo, try the software. Only you can prevent pants fires.

--Qfg

**318sugarhill** · 11-23-2010, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by Q-fugee

I do own an HTC android phone, thanks. Its battery life does drive me nuts. I also work with the Android source and know what your phone is doing when you think it's idle.

I appreciate your experiences, but these are anecdotes, not data. These anecdotes are not contolled for software behavior, which is the root cause of most battery problems (time w/o signal, background tasks, screen brightness, etc). A before-and-after testimonial is not as effective as side-by-side tests which control for all the other variables.

Have you tried Juice Defender? This app actually does monitor and turn off the software behavior that causes most idle battery drain, and does a good job at it.

Here's a nice primer on exactly why your Li-Ion battery behaves the way it does:

And they even talk about how easy it is to screw up the simple "gas gauge" calibration.

Here is exactly what's happening when you charge a Li-Ion battery:

Short answer: what people are calling "bump charging" is shortening your battery life by tricking the thermal protection and charging circuits. Basically, you are re-setting the baseline measurement the charging circuit uses to measure temperature and internal resistance, the two things that tell it when charging is done. Chargers can't directly measure "FULL" or "EMPTY." They measure temperature and resistance. And voltage, of course.

They know it's "EMPTY" when voltage hits a pre-set low and resistance falls below a baseline. They know "FULL" when voltage and resistance hit a pre-set point and they stop charging when temerature hits a pre-set point.

You are not over-charging or topping off your battery, you are just over-heating it at the end of its charging cycle when it's supposed to be on a cooler trickle charge. You may trick the gauge into showing "fuller."

Let me be clear: "bump charging" is a myth. No good will come of this. You will destroy your battery. Bad battery life is not a myth.

You could make the case that the baseline resistance established by the HTC charging circuit is wrong, and that the battery's thermal protection is too conservative, but not without controlled side-by-side tests. To date, HTC hasn't confirmed this.

The fix is for Google to start migrating the behavior that Juice Defender enforces into the core OS, in particular the radio stack and the display drivers.

If you don't want to use Juice Defender but wouldn't mind rooting your phone, there are several ROMs over at xda-developers that monkey with the radio stack and other idle behavior to prolong battery life. That's the second best bet until Google migrates some of these tricks to the actual OS core. Some of the better software tricks for prolonging battery life are patented by RIM, however.

To answer the OP's question: "Is it a hardware or software issue? If I root my device will that fix it?" It's a software issue. Yes, rooting can fix it if you're willing to flash a new ROM.

Please try Juice Defender first and report back. It beats bricking your phone or setting it on fire :-)

--Qfg

Dude,

Thanks for the over analytical, engeering explanation. Whether you want to deny it happens based on "lack of scientifice data" is up to you, but to say it is a myth is flat out untrue.

I really don't give a who about the technical aspects. I'M NOT THE ONE TRYING TO FIX IT. HTC should be. I'm just telling you what is going on.

It is NO MYTH that bump charging works. I have eyes, and real world experience with multiple phones. I'm no *****, and I do know what is going on with my phone. Point here is, something is wrong with the phone not charging the battery to the fullest when the phone is powered on. Don't give me a bunch of crap about the phone not running on AC when plugged in, and dwindling the battery. If the green light is on, the phone is using AC juice. Whether you unplug the cord after 30 seconds of the light turning green, or wait 6 hours, you still have the same battery percentage drop within 10 minutes. When the phone is charged when powered off, this does not happen.

I understand "bump charging" will shorten the life of the battery. I have two batteries, and the second cost me only $15 and it is a legit HTC battery. Point is, I need to get through the day on a charge. I now have an external charger, so one battery is always ready to go.

When the battery charges in the phone, and then lasts so much longer when charged in the external charger, there is an issue with the phone. And no, this isn't after 3 days of trying it, I've had the phone since the first week of JUNE. This is day after day, same usage amounts everyday.

I appreciate your "breaking it down" for us, but I really don't care. Most of us experience this, and after bump charging, the phone lasts longer.

If the extra charges shorten the battery life, so be it, as it is no good to me running out of power at 3:00. It would be the same # of charges as having to plug it in in the middle of the day.

By the way, when using the powermat, the AC charger does "shut off" and then the phone will run on battery even though it's still on the power mat. The powermat circuitry shuts off when the battery reaches full.

**Hitch_Itch** · 11-23-2010, 09:41 AM

After the last ota update the charge times have changed dramatically.
Lots of people are saying the charging issue has been fixed, but you cannot root with the update, Im waiting for unrevoked to get a new reflash out.
during a normal work day I dont need gmail/facebook/twitter updates all the time. If you shut off your mobile network using a homescreen widget and then yurn it on when you want to check those apps, then turn it back off again, your battery will last for days. I know this is not an option for some who want/need updates non stop. For me doing this works great. I get 2 1/2 days out of my seido 1750mh battery. I do keep the mobile network on after work, just not on all the time from 7am to 5pm

**TBarnhardt** · 11-23-2010, 10:49 AM

Somebody seems REALLY interested in getting people to use Juice Defender for some reason...

**Q-fugee** · 11-23-2010, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by TBarnhardt

Somebody seems REALLY interested in getting people to use Juice Defender for some reason...

Yep. This is how all the other bump-charging threads end, too.

No, I don't work for Juice Defender :-) Actually, I work on location-based services. We deal with Juice Defender every day, becuase the things Juice Defender turn off really messes up our software. But we also deal a lot with battery issues in our phone fleet, so we have to separate the wheat from the chaff and get down to what we can really do to make these things last all day without bursting into flames. Bursting into flames really screws up location-based services, too.

--Qfg

**mannw1977** · 11-23-2010, 07:17 PM

People the issue is we are at a point with smartphone were the battery technology is lacking.Phones today are like labtops.HTC put a 1300mA battery in a phone that needed a 1750mA battery just get to the end of the day (8 to 10pm) with normal usage.Don't take it wrong people I hate my battery going from green to red also.

**kcinkiller1** · 11-24-2010, 03:49 AM

yes, i would like to see this fixed...bumb charing is getting irritating

**davidnc** · 11-24-2010, 05:39 AM

til they get it fixed,, dude an external charger will fix it and they are not expensive either , lol , the choice is yours

**drumzalicious** · 11-25-2010, 12:34 AM

Quite a bit of info in this thread. Has anyone noticed a significant difference using the 1750 battery?

**PvilleComp** · 11-25-2010, 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by drumzalicious

Quite a bit of info in this thread. Has anyone noticed a significant difference using the 1750 battery?

I have not tried the 1750 myself, but there are many in the forums use it and really like it. I have a 3500 and use the phone without fear, the way it was meant to be used!

I think an extended battery is a must for any new Android Phone. I council all my clients looking at Android that they just need to start thinking about an extended battery before they buy the phone. I tell them to use the OEM for a week or two, and If it’s not getting them through the day…

The OEM's are looking to cut costs and are shipping light batteries. Sucks, but it's a reality. If you want to use the phone, the way it was meant to be used an extended battery is almost a requirement. The only question is how big is good for the way you use your phone.

I guess the real question is, will 33% more get you through the day? Is keeping the original dimensions a requirement? If 33% more will get you through the day, the 1750 will keep the original size. Otherwise, the 2100 and the 3500 will make the phone bigger.

Hope this helps!

**keebz** · 11-25-2010, 10:06 PM

I realize the economic costs associated with shipping units with lighter batteries, but really, at this point, given that the 1750 is the same size as the default, it should become the standard.

Now, about the bump charging issue, I don't have my Droid Incredible yet but should be getting it soon. I don't like the idea of bump charging, especially because of the inconvenience (I have other things I need to do rather than babysitting the charger). I also haven't ordered any of the non-stock batteries as I would like to see for myself how the stock battery holds up. Anyway, I remember reading a long time ago the difference between charging a laptop and cell phones. Apparently, for some odd reason, cell phones just don't have the chip built in that "stops" the charging when the battery is at 100%. Instead of running on AC power or cutting charging altogether, it shifts to battery power which lowers the cycle count of the Li-Ion battery (once you reach the maximum allotted amount of cycles for the battery [there are hundreds if not thousands], your battery will "die"). So even if you charge the battery from 85% to 100% again, that counts as 1 cycle charge removed from the total count. This is at least how my laptop and most, if not all, others work. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Finally, if this is entirely a software issue, I don't see why it doesn't have the utmost priority (should have it's own 2.2.x emergency update even...) over other things like changing the appearance of App icons, UI menus, etc. for Gingerbread/2.3. That is, of course, assuming it isn't as simple to fix as everyone is saying and that the ROM fixes are just temporary, inefficient solutions with greater consequences down the line.

**papi92** · 11-25-2010, 10:50 PM

Bump really messes with me and my day. I need to charge and charge.

**jimracing657** · 11-25-2010, 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by Q-fugee

I do own an HTC android phone, thanks. Its battery life does drive me nuts. I also work with the Android source and know what your phone is doing when you think it's idle.

I appreciate your experiences, but these are anecdotes, not data. These anecdotes are not contolled for software behavior, which is the root cause of most battery problems (time w/o signal, background tasks, screen brightness, etc). A before-and-after testimonial is not as effective as side-by-side tests which control for all the other variables.

Have you tried Juice Defender? This app actually does monitor and turn off the software behavior that causes most idle battery drain, and does a good job at it.

Here's a nice primer on exactly why your Li-Ion battery behaves the way it does:

And they even talk about how easy it is to screw up the simple "gas gauge" calibration.

Here is exactly what's happening when you charge a Li-Ion battery:

Short answer: what people are calling "bump charging" is shortening your battery life by tricking the thermal protection and charging circuits. Basically, you are re-setting the baseline measurement the charging circuit uses to measure temperature and internal resistance, the two things that tell it when charging is done. Chargers can't directly measure "FULL" or "EMPTY." They measure temperature and resistance. And voltage, of course.

They know it's "EMPTY" when voltage hits a pre-set low and resistance falls below a baseline. They know "FULL" when voltage and resistance hit a pre-set point and they stop charging when temerature hits a pre-set point.

You are not over-charging or topping off your battery, you are just over-heating it at the end of its charging cycle when it's supposed to be on a cooler trickle charge. You may trick the gauge into showing "fuller."

Let me be clear: "bump charging" is a myth. No good will come of this. You will destroy your battery. Bad battery life is not a myth.

You could make the case that the baseline resistance established by the HTC charging circuit is wrong, and that the battery's thermal protection is too conservative, but not without controlled side-by-side tests. To date, HTC hasn't confirmed this.

The fix is for Google to start migrating the behavior that Juice Defender enforces into the core OS, in particular the radio stack and the display drivers.

If you don't want to use Juice Defender but wouldn't mind rooting your phone, there are several ROMs over at xda-developers that monkey with the radio stack and other idle behavior to prolong battery life. That's the second best bet until Google migrates some of these tricks to the actual OS core. Some of the better software tricks for prolonging battery life are patented by RIM, however.

To answer the OP's question: "Is it a hardware or software issue? If I root my device will that fix it?" It's a software issue. Yes, rooting can fix it if you're willing to flash a new ROM.

Please try Juice Defender first and report back. It beats bricking your phone or setting it on fire :-)

--Qfg

FYI its typically not ROMs that are going to change your battery life much, sure you might get alittle more, but flash a undervolt kernel and then your going to see some real results. I dont bump change my phone, i dont charge with it powered off, i dont pray and do a voodoo dance before unplugging it. Root and try something like the adrynalyne undervolt battery kernel, and no i dont have any connection to him, im just saying i can get a complete day and still have 25% battery left, with moderate to heavy use