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  1. #51  
    lightyear420's Avatar

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    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul627g View Post
    If I follow what Jerry explained along with what JQB has commented on in his various Google postings, when it comes to the CDMA/LTE specific's its more than just the radio.img that gets changed up. I believe there are even edits that are made to the system image to support the custom (proprietary) radio.img.

    If that is correct then that cancels out the possibility of AOSP supporting even the system image for the CDMA/LTE versions.
    ok, so I understand that it may be a little more than just the radio....but then why not have a "CDMA rom pack" and a "GSM rom pack" for devs to download? I just think there MUST be a much better way to provide this to avoid the ridiculous fragmentation we're currently seeing. There is always a better way
  2. #52  

    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by garyd9 View Post
    Google can't do it, but CM, AOKP, etc all can?
    Sure CM and others that have their repo's and source available online has also taken the steps of using AOSP source and then by various means of pulling the proprietary files from the devices they have incorporated the needed "missing links" to make things possible.

    Don't forget too, that is also the reason why you see many "unofficial and early official CM" builds released with improper working data/camera, etc... Again proprietary files come into play once again or that is at least how I'm reading it right or wrong?
    Last edited by Paul627g; 05-01-2012 at 10:13 AM. Reason: typos
    Paul
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  3. #53  
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    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Hildenbrand View Post
    An update can consist of 4 parts:
    system image
    boot image
    recovery image
    radio image

    Google builds the system image, boot image, recovery image from their source code.

    Samsung and Verizon build the radio image.

    In the system image, there are a handful of files that need changed because the Nexus is on a CDMA network. Google does not have the required licenses to re-distribute these files, they must come from Samsung and Verizon.

    Google has a penta-band unlocked reference device. They build a version of Android for it, and test on it. When it passes their testing, the update is ready as far as Google is concerned. Verizon and Samsung then take that update (probably in the form of source code, not zip files) and make the required changes to allow the Nexus to work on a CDMA network. When finished, they give the green light for the update to be distributed from Google's servers.

    Take everything above, and apply it to LTE as well, since it's a very closed and proprietary standard.

    Because these versions are different when built, they need a different version number. This is why the GSM Nexus and CDMA Nexus will never be on the same version.

    4.0.4 is the current version of Android. Any fixes special or specific to the CDMA Nexus are not included -- because Google does not have license to include them.

    4.0.5 (maybe) will be the version for CDMA. It will never be in AOSP, because it uses code that is not open source.

    Now is the time to ask any other questions. I'll try to answer if I know the answer.
    Based on this statement
    Take everything above, and apply it to LTE as well, since it's a very closed and proprietary standard.

    At least in the US, and eventually europe we might as well just drop the argument about being able to build completely from source, AT&T and Verizon both already have LTE, Sprint's is moment's away and T-mobile has plans for LTE, the next nexus no matter what carrier it's released on in the US won't be able to be completly built directly from AOSP.

    I don't think that was ever really a requirement for a nexus, it was a byproduct of the ease of distribution of GSM and HSPA radios because it wasn't closed source. That people liked

    A nexus in my mind
    Runs the latest major verizon of Android, not talking about the incremental changes.
    Runs AOSP with the exclusion of the radios. UI is straight from google.
    Has little to no bloatware, I'd make the arguement that VZ backup and VZ mobile isn't really bloatware, it's not something they add to make money like city ID, it's something they add to make the same vz services that the rest of their android phones have available on the phone. I myself always have vz mobile installed unless I'm running AOSP, but even then I'd prefer that I could.
  4. #54  

    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    So basically when it comes down to CDMA radios Sprint and Verizon want to keep Google out of the loop. I say this for one reason, Google could most certainly afford the purchase of the CDMA license but for some reason are not being afforded this opportunity. Is this a false statement?
    When it comes down to it everyone crowing about having a "Real" Nexus here in the U.S. have their
    days numbered with the soon to be adopted LTE networks nationwide by all carriers.

    Sent with Tapatalk 2 on my not real Galaxy Nexus.
    Don't mess with me, I haven't had my Tratonin yet.
  5. #55  

    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Probably correct on the whole "Real Nexus/GSM based" theory.. LTE is obviously the way US carriers are moving.

    As far as the whole what makes a Nexus, I agree with many others have said about Google's idea of AOSP experience, little or no bloatware, etc. etc...
    Paul
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  6. #56  
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    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Droid800 View Post

    And for the last time: Verizon does not control which updates this phone gets. It will get updated to jelly beand and whatever comes after it, and Verizon has no say in the matter...

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
    "Verizon and Samsung then take that update (probably in the form of source code, not zip files) and make the required changes to allow the Nexus to work on a CDMA network. When finished, they give the green light for the update to be distributed from Google's servers."

    According to this statement by Jerry, Verizon can be a controlling factor in which updates this phone gets.
  7. #57  
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    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by stoneworrior View Post
    So basically when it comes down to CDMA radios Sprint and Verizon want to keep Google out of the loop. I say this for one reason, Google could most certainly afford the purchase of the CDMA license but for some reason are not being afforded this opportunity. Is this a false statement?
    When it comes down to it everyone crowing about having a "Real" Nexus here in the U.S. have their
    days numbered with the soon to be adopted LTE networks nationwide by all carriers.

    Sent with Tapatalk 2 on my not real Galaxy Nexus.
    This isn't true. Most of the CDMA technology is owned by Qualcomm, and they are the reason Google has trouble with CDMA licenses not because of Verizon or Sprint per-say.
  8. #58  

    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by cbbartley View Post
    "Verizon and Samsung then take that update (probably in the form of source code, not zip files) and make the required changes to allow the Nexus to work on a CDMA network. When finished, they give the green light for the update to be distributed from Google's servers."

    According to this statement by Jerry, Verizon can be a controlling factor in which updates this phone gets.
    I think an example of this can be seen in how long it took for the Nexus S 4g to receive the official ICS update from GB.

    Google dropped the 4.0.4 source & NS4G/binaries for them a good time ago, but then it was still a ways off before Sprint actually went the steps required to make its necessary CDMA/WiMax edits needed to release.
    Paul
    Moderator Team Leader @ Android Central





  9. #59  

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul627g View Post
    I think an example of this can be seen in how long it took for the Nexus S 4g to receive the official ICS update from GB.

    Google dropped the 4.0.4 source & NS4G/binaries for them a good time ago, but then it was still a ways off before Sprint actually went the steps required to make its necessary CDMA/WiMax edits needed to release.
    Okay now this is where I get fuzzy. Everyone keeps saying that these phones cannot have software built from source because of the CDMA radios. Yet I was running a kick *** rom from Breezy that clearly stated "Pure AOSP built from source" on my Nexus S 4g way before it was released.

    Sent from my (Not real) Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
    Don't mess with me, I haven't had my Tratonin yet.
  10. #60  

    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by stoneworrior View Post
    Okay now this is where I get fuzzy. Everyone keeps saying that these phones cannot have software built from source because of the CDMA radios. Yet I was running a kick *** rom from Breezy that clearly stated "Pure AOSP built from source" on my Nexus S 4g way before it was released.

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
    Yes it was built using AOSP source but I think Beezy was using GB radio.img and other proprietary files. I know the exact ROM your talking about, I ran it too...

    I think the same can be said for all the rest of the ROMs built for the NS4G before official ICS release, they were using GB proprietary files to make everything gel and work.
    Paul
    Moderator Team Leader @ Android Central





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  11. #61  
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    If Samsung has license to distribute, why can't they host the images? What's Qualcom's problem about the Android open source project for cdma phones? How could it harm their profit? I wish Google, and Qualcom would make a direct statement about what the real reasons the are cdma versions can't be open source.

    Sprint GN, Tapatalk2
  12. #62  

    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrStylz View Post
    Wait a minute - someone brought this up earlier and I didn't see an answer... How does Apple work around this? Or doesn't it? I never recalled hearing about VZW/Sprint having any hands in the update process for iOS.
    With the high demand for iOS devices, it was a simple matter for Apple to dictate their own terms with the carriers. Apple's terms with the carriers are significantly different than any other smartphone manufacturer. So much so, that the carriers are grinding their teeth over the terms, but still deem it a necessary evil.
    "Some see the glass as half-empty, some see the glass as half-full. I see the glass as too big."
    - George Carlin
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  13. #63  

    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Since the 4.0.4 OTA is being released I wonder what the next complaint will be.

  14. #64  

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by garyd9 View Post
    Google can't do it, but CM, AOKP, etc all can?

    My impression has been that there are portions (beyond the radio image and RIL) that google can't distro source for (because of signing issues?) and so they've basically just dropped support for CDMA. While Apple says "we control it all, or it's nothing", Google is basically doing the same thing on the opposite extreme: "we distribute it all, or it's nothing."

    BTW, 4.0.4 is a CDMA image (For sprint)
    You'll notice with roms like CM and the AOKP that they rarely ever work out of the box. Generally code tweaks have to be made and those code tweaks are allowed to be distributed because they are owned by the project, not by a vendor.

    As for 4.0.4 on sprint. Despite the fact that the Sprint and Verizon nexus are both CDMA/LTE that doesn't mean they are compatible. This is why we haven't seen an official 404 build for the vzw nexus.

    Apple doesn't have it any easier. They benefit in that they, in this example, are both Google AND Samsung. The process can move faster for them because of that.

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
  15. #65  

    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    We have no clue what Verizon's agreement with Apple is for them to sell the iPhone. I know the CDMA iPhone users had to wait on the 5.0.1 update for about a month, but I think they got the 5.1 update at the same time.

    So a few things could have happened:

    Verizon could test the updates and they approved it in time for Apple to release them both at the same time

    Apple tells Verizon that if they are going to sell the iPhone they have to let Apple handle all the software testing.

    Verizon, due to it's large customer base, could have an agreement with Apple that they have to give Verizon time to approve the software before they go public with it.

    Verizon is notorious for testing the crap out of phones and software updates, for good reason. Our company used to use a ton of Blackberrys, before we switched to Android, on sprint and Verizon. When we would update the Verizon BB's we usually had to wait a while for updates but there wouldn't be a whole lot of bugs. The Sprint BB's usually need a patch or 2 after an update to get all the bugs out since they don't test as thoroughly as Verizon.

    In the end I bought the Nexus because it takes like 5 min to unlock and root it and you don't have to jump through a bunch of hoops or poke it with a paper clip. The developer community for it is huge so you don't have to hope and beg that a certain ROM will be made available for it. I could care less about having the latest version of stock Android from Google , I've had 4.0.4 with AOKP for a while now.

    tl;dr version:
    Don't worry about what Apple does, we don't use their phones.
    Verizon tests the crap out of software updates so they don't get a bunch of calls about an update borking someone's phone.
    If you want the latest version of Android get the GSM model or unlock it, root it and ROM it, it is a Nexus after all.
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  16. #66  

    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Hildenbrand View Post
    In the system image, there are a handful of files that need changed because the Nexus is on a CDMA network. Google does not have the required licenses to re-distribute these files, they must come from Samsung and Verizon.
    New to the forum, so not sure if this has been discussed in the past, but: Is there a chance that Google will create a GSM Nexus device that supports T-Mobile's 42Mbps HSPA network, or are there licensing restrictions with that as well? Would Google have the freedom to make all the necessary changes to the radio image to support it?
  17. #67  
    chubb's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by zedorda View Post
    Since the 4.0.4 OTA is being released I wonder what the next complaint will be.

    Nice heads up with the article. If its true I say about time.

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
  18. Thread Author  Thread Author    #68  
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    Quote Originally Posted by greyhulk View Post
    It's really not a Nexus device. Verizon ruined it like they do every other android device they get their hands on. Verizon + Android = crippled device.

    My unlocked GSM Nexus is a real Nexus device. I'll probably have Jellybean months before the Verizon version.
    With that said, do you feel Verizon is capable of releasing a true Nexus device?
  19. #69  

    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by alucard9114 View Post
    I love this phone it has problems yes (bad reception,bad speakers,bad camera,)but the community support on this device is amazing.I'm running 4.0.4 on it now if you root you can easely get this update so why all the fuss on the update?
    I have to wonder whether you'd be singing the praises of the iPhone if it had the problems you speak of.

    To the point of the thread, no, I don't believe Verizon's Galaxy Nexus is a real Nexus if the Nexus was meant to be Google's version of the iPhone: a pure, unmarred experience. Currently, only the GSM Galaxy Nexus meets that definition.
  20. #70  

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cbbartley View Post
    This isn't true. Most of the CDMA technology is owned by Qualcomm, and they are the reason Google has trouble with CDMA licenses not because of Verizon or Sprint per-say.
    So then its Qualcomm, either way somewhere outside of the open source realm there is a company with a financial interest in this technology. A company that does not want to Google to have access to it, at least that is what I am getting out of this whole thing.

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
    Don't mess with me, I haven't had my Tratonin yet.
  21. #71  

    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Hildenbrand View Post
    An update can consist of 4 parts:
    system image
    boot image
    recovery image
    radio image

    Google builds the system image, boot image, recovery image from their source code.

    Samsung and Verizon build the radio image.

    In the system image, there are a handful of files that need changed because the Nexus is on a CDMA network. Google does not have the required licenses to re-distribute these files, they must come from Samsung and Verizon.

    Google has a penta-band unlocked reference device. They build a version of Android for it, and test on it. When it passes their testing, the update is ready as far as Google is concerned. Verizon and Samsung then take that update (probably in the form of source code, not zip files) and make the required changes to allow the Nexus to work on a CDMA network. When finished, they give the green light for the update to be distributed from Google's servers.

    Take everything above, and apply it to LTE as well, since it's a very closed and proprietary standard.

    Because these versions are different when built, they need a different version number. This is why the GSM Nexus and CDMA Nexus will never be on the same version.

    4.0.4 is the current version of Android. Any fixes special or specific to the CDMA Nexus are not included -- because Google does not have license to include them.

    4.0.5 (maybe) will be the version for CDMA. It will never be in AOSP, because it uses code that is not open source.

    Now is the time to ask any other questions. I'll try to answer if I know the answer.
    So a GSM Nexus will never be on the same version as a CDMA Nexus? Yet the NS4G is on version 4.0.4 same as the GSM Nexus S and the GSM Galaxy Nexus. There are even reports of 4.0.4 on the NS4G having better 3G reception. That points to CDMA specific fixes being in 4.0.4. So that kinda blows your explanation out of the water.

    Maybe since you guys work for such a big Android news site, one of you could actually bother to find out what the real truth is in the differences of versions between the CDMA and GSM Nexus models by asking Google directly, instead of guessing. Better yet why don't you ask Google to define what a "Nexus" is when there is so much fragmentation existing between the CDMA and GSM models while your at it.
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  22. #72  
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    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by zedorda View Post
    Since the 4.0.4 OTA is being released I wonder what the next complaint will be.

    Oh baby, I need me those radios!

    Quote Originally Posted by zepfloyd View Post
    Custom ROM makers just pull the radio images from the phone and incorporate it into their ROM. They don't write, compile or do anything new.

    Google still does provide the binaries it can, like graphics and wifi, just not the radio.
    (bottom)
    Most roms (presumably all, but even I have not tasted every fruit of the poisonous tree) do not include the radios within their zips; usually it's a separate flashable file. Heck, the radios don't even "stick" with a nandroid!
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  23. #73  
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    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Fact: Every HTC Device on Verizon is blocked from HTC hub services, such as ringtone and theme downloads. This only applies to the Verizon versions. Other carriers allow you to have full access to the HTC Hub.

    Fact: Verizon loads more bloatware in their roms and locks it so you can't uninstall most of it.

    Fact: Verizon's version of the Nexus has Verizon apps installed that are locked in the ROM. This is the exact opposite of what a Nexus is intended to be.
    Last edited by Paul627g; 05-01-2012 at 01:51 PM. Reason: Edited by moderator.
  24. #74  
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    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    In response to all question why can Apple do x and Google can't? ...

    Because they have much more leverage with Carriers than Google and the willingness to put their foot down.
  25. #75  
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    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by greyhulk View Post

    Fact: Every HTC Device on Verizon is blocked from HTC hub services, such as ringtone and theme downloads. This only applies to the Verizon versions. Other carriers allow you to have full access to the HTC Hub.

    Fact: Verizon loads more bloatware in their roms and locks it so you can't uninstall most of it.

    Fact: Verizon's version of the Nexus has Verizon apps installed that are locked in the ROM. This is the exact opposite of what a Nexus is intended to be.
    Two Verizon apps. Can they not be disabled (forgive my ignorance, I haven't been stock in months)?

    Let's face it, with carriers and their dominance it's hard for ANY phone to be a true Nexus device if it first goes through a carrier. Hence the GSM > LTE argument.

    On top of that, the legal issues with licensing, signing off, and general intellectual property rights are highly complex in this area, mainly because the law is simply outdated, archaic, and generally inapplicable to the changing technological landscape. Hence the CDMA debacle that Jerry explained very nicely.
    Last edited by Paul627g; 05-01-2012 at 01:50 PM. Reason: Edited by moderator.
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