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  1. #76  
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    Quote Originally Posted by poopsies View Post
    So a GSM Nexus will never be on the same version as a CDMA Nexus? Yet the NS4G is on version 4.0.4 same as the GSM Nexus S and the GSM Galaxy Nexus. There are even reports of 4.0.4 on the NS4G having better 3G reception. That points to CDMA specific fixes being in 4.0.4. So that kinda blows your explanation out of the water.

    Maybe since you guys work for such a big Android news site, one of you could actually bother to find out what the real truth is in the differences of versions between the CDMA and GSM Nexus models by asking Google directly, instead of guessing. Better yet why don't you ask Google to define what a "Nexus" is when there is so much fragmentation existing between the CDMA and GSM models while your at it.
    4.0.4 for a GSM Nexus device will never work on any CDMA Nexus device, hence versions will never be the same.
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  2. #77  
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    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by dmmarck View Post
    Two Verizon apps. Can they not be disabled (forgive my ignorance, I haven't been stock in months).

    Let's face it, with carriers and their dominance it's hard for ANY phone to be a true Nexus device if it first goes through a carrier. Hence the GSM > LTE argument.

    On top of that, the legal issues with licensing, signing off, and general intellectual property rights are highly complex in this area, mainly because the law is simply outdated, archaic, and generally inapplicable to the changing technological landscape. Hence the CDMA debacle that Jerry explained very nicely.
    To my knowledge, they can't be uninstalled without rooting. You shouldn't have to hack a Nexus device to get a pure google experience. Sprint's version of the Nexus does not have any additional apps that are locked in the ROM.

    And blocking access to HTC Hub is strictly a Verizon thing, too. They do it so you'll have to buy ringtones through them, but they take it to the extent that you can't even get Sense themes or wallpapers from HTC Hub.
  3. #78  
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    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by macewank View Post
    You'll notice with roms like CM and the AOKP that they rarely ever work out of the box. Generally code tweaks have to be made and those code tweaks are allowed to be distributed because they are owned by the project, not by a vendor.
    The point I was trying to make was that if google wanted to, they could release AOSP for the CDMA phones even if they used older modem images. For that matter, they could do exactly what CM/AOKP/etc all do, and just not include the modem images at all. In a way, that might actually pressure the carriers to move quicker on approving modem updates, etc - the customers would see firmware (it's not read-only) updates from google, and wonder why their carrier isn't updating the modem.

    It can work and has worked for the last 5 months. My verizon GN is running 4.0.4 with 4.0.2 modems. Nothing special had to be done.

    The only reason I've seen from google on why they won't do this is that certain packages that need to be included in the firmware must have certain digital signatures - so users can't build those packages themselves. Google hasn't given a reason why they can't distribute those same packages in binary form (actually, they do already but not officially.)

    To me, that sounds like Google is saying: We can't sign it ourselves, and you can't sign it, therefore we won't support it. If google isn't supporting it, then it is not a "google nexus" phone. It might still be called a "nexus", but it's a VERIZON nexus (or a Sprint Nexus, or perhaps a "qualcomm nexus."

    All that being said, I'm not really complaining. I purchased my "verizon nexus prime" just a few weeks ago and I don't regret it. I might have purchased the real GSM "google nexus" if it was available with 32GB of RAM (sorry, but 16GB and no memory slot is just too limiting.) (I wonder if the lack of a 32GB GSM nexus is the result of a contract...) Regardless, I'm running 4.0.4, and have been for weeks. Google might not be supporting me, but they probably wouldn't have supported half the stuff I do with my phone anyway.

    What is a Nexus? Just a name and nothing more. I don't think the verizon phone is a real "google nexus" (for the reasons above), but it's pretty close.

    Edit: correction, I'm running the leaked FA02 modems.. which apparently are independent of any specific version of android.

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  4. #79  
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    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by greyhulk View Post
    To my knowledge, they can't be uninstalled without rooting. You shouldn't have to hack a Nexus device to get a pure google experience. Sprint's version of the Nexus does not have any additional apps that are locked in the ROM.

    And blocking access to HTC Hub is strictly a Verizon thing, too. They do it so you'll have to buy ringtones through them, but they take it to the extent that you can't even get Sense themes or wallpapers from HTC Hub.
    I don't disagree, but the Verizon apps really don't "impede" on the Google experience--at least they didn't when I was riding stock. I think there needs to be a differentiation between actual impediment, which is somewhat seen with the updates, and perceived impediment based upon subjective wishes, opinions, etc., which is what I chalk the "2 Verizon app" backlash too (mostly).

    Obviously, that's my own opinion. Verizon's evil, no doubt, but I'm getting unlimited 4G data (until they do away with such amazingness), and for me, that > GSM every time.
  5. #80  
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    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by greyhulk View Post
    Since you clearly don't know what a Troll or a substantive post is, perhaps you should go fight your crusade somewhere else. I qualified my statement in a later post. Just because you're a Verizon fanboy and you don't like what you read, doesn't make the person who posts it a Troll. I have been a Verizon customer and I have owned many Android phones with them. I'm probably much more knowledgeable on this subject than you are.
    I know you're fighting the "good fight" here, but that last statement does nothing for you, logically or otherwise. If we want to debate substantively and objectively, then do that, but really, there's no need to go down this rabbit hole.
  6. #81  
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    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by dmmarck View Post
    I don't disagree, but the Verizon apps really don't "impede" on the Google experience--at least they didn't when I was riding stock. I think there needs to be a differentiation between actual impediment, which is somewhat seen with the updates, and perceived impediment based upon subjective wishes, opinions, etc., which is what I chalk the "2 Verizon app" backlash too (mostly).

    Obviously, that's my own opinion. Verizon's evil, no doubt, but I'm getting unlimited 4G data (until they do away with such amazingness), and for me, that > GSM every time.
    You're getting unlimited Verizon data that is throttled after a certain point. I'm not sure that being busted down to 1X speeds is better than no data or overage charges.

    To me, not being able to remove apps that you don't want on a Nexus device is the equivalent of impediment. I would probably actually use the "My Verizon app", but the contact transfer app is worthless. And if you really wanted them, you could just download them from the market. Not being able to remove them is like Verizon sticking a thumb in your eye.

    Also, there's the fact that they blocked access to Google Wallet. An arguably premium feature of the Nexus at launch.
  7. #82  

    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by greyhulk View Post
    You're getting unlimited Verizon data that is throttled after a certain point. I'm not sure that being busted down to 1X speeds is better than no data or overage charges.
    Yeah, it's better than overage charges. Add to the fact that Verizon only throttles when network usage in your area is high and that means you're not being throttled as much as you think. AT&T/TMobile just shut you down for the remainder of the month, Verizon lets you keep using data so long as towers in your area aren't at capacity.
  8. #83  
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    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by greyhulk View Post
    You're getting unlimited Verizon data that is throttled after a certain point. I'm not sure that being busted down to 1X speeds is better than no data or overage charges.

    To me, not being able to remove apps that you don't want on a Nexus device is the equivalent of impediment. I would probably actually use the "My Verizon app", but the contact transfer app is worthless. And if you really wanted them, you could just download them from the market. Not being able to remove them is like Verizon sticking a thumb in your eye.

    Also, there's the fact that they blocked access to Google Wallet. An arguably premium feature of the Nexus at launch.
    I completely agree with the last point; and they did it b/c of their own "rival" system, which is bollocks b/c I've yet to see this rival system/app/what have you.

    I'm sure I do get throttled, but for the price I pay when it's all said and done simply cannot be beat--throttling be damned. Off contract is not an option for a lot of folks out there, so compromise must be made. Does that compromise mean it's not a "Nexus" device? Potentially to some, maybe a lot of folks it does. To me? Not necessarily. It still gets an exceptional about of dev support, is still a "reference" device, and it was the debut flagship of ICS. For me, that counts for a lot. I buy Android because I flash. I love it, it's a fantastic hobby. Being on the phone which might have better dev support than any other Android device out there--perhaps historically--is a major, major deal to me, so I'm willing to disregard those two apps .

    The other question you must ask--with the changing climate, particularly with LTE being pushed massively--is the "old definition" of Nexus "obsolete," or is it now rendered more specific, narrow, etc. now?
  9. #84  
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    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by zedorda View Post
    your still a troll deal with it.
    And YOU'RE still bad at grammar. Deal with it.

    Now THAT'S trolling. See the difference?
  10. #85  
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    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Very informative thread, thanks for all the good stuff in here.

    One thing though, and this isn't to start a my phone/your phone deal, but someone mentioned it.

    The ReZound and the Razr are made by 2 different companies. The razr I cannot speak about, but the ReZ was easy to root, s-off and throw a ROM on there if needed.

    That is all, continue on.
  11. #86  

    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Maybe it's just my misreading of the facts here but a pure Nexus device (as Google has historically defined it) gets their updates from Google. Now I realize that CDMA throws a wrench into things but the fact that Sprint had 4.04 before Verizon does means that the carriers are having an influence on when those updates are reaching the device. This to me indicates that Google does not have final say on the updates and therefore, strictly speaking, it's not a pure Nexus phone. Is that a deal breaker for me? No, I love the phone; but you can't argue that CDMA is the only hang up when you have one CDMA carrier receiving updates before another.
  12. #87  

    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Crap. The only reason I was going to get it on VZW was to have the pure Android experience, I've had nothing but TouchWiz. Now I won't get it...I could get the unlocked GSM version, but I am so tired of AT&T and their BS. I am being so throttled & I get so many text/email about my data, that I will take the 6GB LTE for $20 more than I'm paying for 2GB. I need the coverage of VZW vs Sprint/TMo

    I'll just have to learn how to root--last time I tried it I had a paperweight that a friend had to fix. Very embarrassing.

    This is an awesome thread guys! I learned a lot!
  13. #88  
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    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    I consider it a Nexus because Goggle says so and they get to define their own branding.

    I consider it a disappointment / NEXUS lite from my expectations of what a Nexus device was to be for the following reasons:

    1. Carrier branding on the device. (at least it's not on the front)

    2. Carrier bloatware included in the ROM (Verizon's inclusion of this bloatware that could be installed from the Play store if a user wanted it was wrong. Including their apks the system directory rather than the data director so they can't be uninstalled without rooting was just sleezy.)

    3. Updates coming from the carrier and not Google. This includes the additional disappointment of being subjected to Verizon's typically long review and testing lab procedures for approval before pushing updates Google sends them. I believe that this goes beyond just testing and incorporating proprietary CDMA radio incorporation.

    4. Caving into Verizon's demands of blocking Google Play APKs (Google's own Wallet app) for the only reason being that Verizon plans to launch a competing app through their upcoming ISIS payment system and they want to handicap adoption of Google Wallet. (Verizon's stated reasons for making Google block this APK from Play was an obvious lie.)
    Good news is that Wallet still works through side loading without rooting.

    FWIW - I knew all of these issues and chose to buy the device anyway as it is still the closest to stock ICS experience I was likely to get for some time on LTE. Also, I knew unlocking the bootloader was easy and that I would be installing a true AOSP ROM and custom kernel anyway.
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    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by dmmarck View Post
    I completely agree with the last point; and they did it b/c of their own "rival" system, which is bollocks b/c I've yet to see this rival system/app/what have you.

    I'm sure I do get throttled, but for the price I pay when it's all said and done simply cannot be beat--throttling be damned. Off contract is not an option for a lot of folks out there, so compromise must be made. Does that compromise mean it's not a "Nexus" device? Potentially to some, maybe a lot of folks it does. To me? Not necessarily. It still gets an exceptional about of dev support, is still a "reference" device, and it was the debut flagship of ICS. For me, that counts for a lot. I buy Android because I flash. I love it, it's a fantastic hobby. Being on the phone which might have better dev support than any other Android device out there--perhaps historically--is a major, major deal to me, so I'm willing to disregard those two apps .

    The other question you must ask--with the changing climate, particularly with LTE being pushed massively--is the "old definition" of Nexus "obsolete," or is it now rendered more specific, narrow, etc. now?
    That's a good point about LTE. I would say that it depends on two things: 1) Where you are (coverage) and 2) How important Battery life is to you.

    AT&T has super fast LTE where I live (40-50 mbps consistently). I swore I'd never get another non-LTE device again after my Note, but then Google put the GSM Nexus on sale. I'm still hitting about 5 mbps download on HSPA+ here and that's actually good enough for most things. And my Nexus lasts a whole day easily, which can't be said of the LTE version on Verizon, in most cases.

    I suppose if you don't have LTE where you live, it might not be as important of a feature. And if you're not willing to trade battery life for faster internet, it might also take lower priority.
  15. #90  

    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by djthomas98 View Post
    New to the forum, so not sure if this has been discussed in the past, but: Is there a chance that Google will create a GSM Nexus device that supports T-Mobile's 42Mbps HSPA network, or are there licensing restrictions with that as well? Would Google have the freedom to make all the necessary changes to the radio image to support it?
    There are no licensing, but I think the radios (the hardware bits) are good for up to 21mb/s. I doubt that could be changed via software to increase it.
  16. #91  
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    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by jroc View Post
    I have been thinking about this lately, Anyone have an idea why this is? Is it LTE causing the delay? The iPhone on Verizon has CDMA radios too... I know that supporting one version of the iPhone is alot easier than what has to be done with Android....just curious if anyone knows...or did I answer my own question..lol.
    You're right one phone definitely streamlines the process. But also the fact that people negotiate with Apple... not the other way around. They have far more freedom in the process than anyone else because they sell far more phones than any other company sells of one particular phone. They don't allow carrier software to be installed. They are allowed to sell locked handsets in their own Apple stores. They make customers go to Apple stores for repairs or replacements. They even make the carrier sell AppleCare for their products. This is completely unprecedented. No other OEM has EVER had this much control over carriers.
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  17. #92  
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    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    BTW, re: the "pushed" update that's going on right now. VZW said it's not them pushing it. So it's Google? Does that make the waters any more murky re: Nexus or Not?

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  18. #93  

    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Here's what I don't understand, who issues the licenses for the CDMA/LTE radios? Is it the 3GPP2? Verizon? Sprint?

    If Verizon, and by force of hand, Sprint, reneged the licenses, does this mean that regional CDMA carriers such as MetroPCS(if they ever got the GN) could theoretically issue their own license and flip the bird at VZ/Sprint ?
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    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by sniffs View Post
    Here's what I don't understand, who issues the licenses for the CDMA/LTE radios? Is it the 3GPP2? Verizon? Sprint?

    If Verizon, and by force of hand, Sprint, reneged the licenses, does this mean that regional CDMA carriers such as MetroPCS(if they ever got the GN) could theoretically issue their own license and flip the bird at VZ/Sprint ?
    From what I understand, the licenses are the property of the carriers--hence the signatures needed.

    If by reneg you mean renegotiate, then I don't think I follow. If a court were to say that a license should be disregarded, or if the carrier opening the license pursuant to some open source protocol, then it would probably create all sorts of chaos.
  20. #95  
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    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by dmmarck View Post
    BTW, re: the "pushed" update that's going on right now. VZW said it's not them pushing it. So it's Google? Does that make the waters any more murky re: Nexus or Not?

    Not at all.. Nexus updates are supposed to be pushed by google, after being approved by Verizon. Also whoever runs that twitter account is likely as clueless as any vzw rep we've ever met.
  21. #96  

    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Hildenbrand View Post
    An update can consist of 4 parts:
    system image
    boot image
    recovery image
    radio image

    Google builds the system image, boot image, recovery image from their source code.

    Samsung and Verizon build the radio image.

    In the system image, there are a handful of files that need changed because the Nexus is on a CDMA network. Google does not have the required licenses to re-distribute these files, they must come from Samsung and Verizon.

    Google has a penta-band unlocked reference device. They build a version of Android for it, and test on it. When it passes their testing, the update is ready as far as Google is concerned. Verizon and Samsung then take that update (probably in the form of source code, not zip files) and make the required changes to allow the Nexus to work on a CDMA network. When finished, they give the green light for the update to be distributed from Google's servers.

    Take everything above, and apply it to LTE as well, since it's a very closed and proprietary standard.

    Because these versions are different when built, they need a different version number. This is why the GSM Nexus and CDMA Nexus will never be on the same version.

    4.0.4 is the current version of Android. Any fixes special or specific to the CDMA Nexus are not included -- because Google does not have license to include them.

    4.0.5 (maybe) will be the version for CDMA. It will never be in AOSP, because it uses code that is not open source.

    Now is the time to ask any other questions. I'll try to answer if I know the answer.
    Like the guy a few posts above yours said "how does apple seem to push updates to both cdma and gsm at the same time?" I think he has a point that if in fact true that apple has more control over the updates then why cant Google, Microsoft, RIM or anyother OS / Maker have the same control over the OS updates? The makers of the phones can also then deal with firmware updates that are not related to the OS.. I think that apple is able to have more control because of all the business that apple brings into the carriers, as such they might have more control, but then again if the iphone did not exist then someone else would have that control like android or rim.
  22. #97  
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    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2defmouze View Post
    Not at all.. Nexus updates are supposed to be pushed by google, after being approved by Verizon. Also whoever runs that twitter account is likely as clueless as any vzw rep we've ever met.
    I only stated that b/c someone--presumably in this thread, but I'm too tired to dig--said the updates were coming from VZW and not Google. Hence, if it's coming from Google, that throws a bit more "oomph" in the "it is a Nexus" argument.
  23. #98  

    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Droosh View Post
    In response to all question why can Apple do x and Google can't? ...

    Because they have much more leverage with Carriers than Google and the willingness to put their foot down.
    that maybe true but imagine if google said we will not allow android based phones onto any carrier that does not allow updates directly from google for the os. Some carriers would then lose alot of business as some of those people will not want an i-phone.
  24. #99  
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    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Also look at when Apple came to Verizon--when they had a significant market share/customer base. Apple has NEVER conceded any ground within any negotiations in the past, what, decade? So why would they with Sprint/Verizon?
  25. #100  

    Default Re: Not a "real Nexus?" WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by dmmarck View Post
    From what I understand, the licenses are the property of the carriers--hence the signatures needed.

    If by reneg you mean renegotiate, then I don't think I follow. If a court were to say that a license should be disregarded, or if the carrier opening the license pursuant to some open source protocol, then it would probably create all sorts of chaos.
    I meant reneged, "verb: to go back on a promise or commitment "

    At one point CDMA was part of AOSP, and then "suddenly" it was pulled when the GN was released.

    Also, let's say MetroPCS gets the GN, they could just sign the libraries and give it to Google, no?
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