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    fire125k's Avatar

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    Default Carriers need to be held responsible

    I think all carriers need to be held responsible of the updates that are sent to our phones. We only get 15 days to return the phone. But if it works great when you get it and the 6 month later you get an update and it is full of bugs. We can't return it and can't roll back to the old software... This needs to be addressed. Then only way we can fix this is with lots of people. This is all carriers... The only way to roll software back is to root. But that breaks the warranty so you need to chose brake the warranty and get a working phone or be stuck with a broken phone and wait for an update!!!!!!
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    You can always revert back to stock if you are rooted........
  3. #3  
    FrankXS's Avatar

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    I can understand your position. I'm sure you are not alone. Lots of people would like more control of the OTA process. Simply providing a rollback avenue would probably be enough.

    -Frank

    Sent from my HTC ThunderBolt 4G/LTE using Tapatalk
    Last edited by FrankXS; 12-01-2011 at 07:29 PM.
    [HTC Thunderbolt™ 4G/LTE!]
    It's not your dream phone. It's the one after that!©
    Look here for a [VZW Coverage Map] to check your area. Select 4G before hitting [Refresh]
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    Default Re: Carriers need to be held responsible

    I agree 100%.

    But, if your phone DOES break, AND you complain to Verizon, they will replace it, or exchange it. Generally, they don't just wash their hands of it when they break it. Yes, the exchange phone will/may have the same issue. In that case, get a different phone from them.
    I do know that it can take numerous calls and can be frustrating, but eventually they work with you. For example, the last go around broke the voice mail notification. People that called and complained were getting the free VZW app for the month or two until the fix was released.
  5. #5  

    Default Re: Carriers need to be held responsible

    My coworker had an LG Optimus on Sprint. When she updated to 2.3 it made her phone useless. The Sprint employees told her they could do nothing when she brought the phone in. They advised her to call LG and inquire. Long story short, she upgraded to a new phone. Looks like a nice way to force an upgrade by forcing people to update to crappy software.
  6. Thread Author  Thread Author    #6  
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    Default Re: Carriers need to be held responsible

    The problem is I rooted but still having data issues. I did not un-root before I called Verizon and now they will not help me at all even if I un-root. My point is I had no choice but to root so I can get the phone to work right and now I'm stuck with this POS....
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    Default Re: Carriers need to be held responsible

    Quote Originally Posted by fire125k View Post
    The problem is I rooted but still having data issues. I did not un-root before I called Verizon and now they will not help me at all even if I un-root. My point is I had no choice but to root so I can get the phone to work right and now I'm stuck with this POS....
    Call again. But this time do it right.

    -Frank
    [HTC Thunderbolt™ 4G/LTE!]
    It's not your dream phone. It's the one after that!©
    Look here for a [VZW Coverage Map] to check your area. Select 4G before hitting [Refresh]
  8. Thread Author  Thread Author    #8  
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    Default Re: Carriers need to be held responsible

    They said they noted the account so I'm cooked
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    Default Re: Carriers need to be held responsible

    Quote Originally Posted by fire125k View Post
    They said they noted the account so I'm cooked
    Ever think about putting in the latest radios? Or, install the latest Froyo RUU. If you're so sure the GB update caused this, why not just change that, if you're rooted, as you say.

    -Frank
    [HTC Thunderbolt™ 4G/LTE!]
    It's not your dream phone. It's the one after that!©
    Look here for a [VZW Coverage Map] to check your area. Select 4G before hitting [Refresh]
  10. #10  

    Default Re: Carriers need to be held responsible

    gotta trial and error each things, its a pain at times, but i personally went through 4 roms and 3 radios to find my perfect set up and working GREAT
  11. Thread Author  Thread Author    #11  
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    Default Re: Carriers need to be held responsible

    can you let me know what you are using and what worked?
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    Default Re: Carriers need to be held responsible

    I would say root it, update to the 906 radio and flash SkyRaider 1.3. Then add the ICS bootanimation, black HTC downanimation, Roboto font, 6 bar signal mod and DuskV2 skin.

    Phone works awesome. Would never look back to stock software.
  13. #13  
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    Default Re: Carriers need to be held responsible

    Ok, so there are a few constant misnomers that are quickly becoming pet peeves of mine, because every seems to think the same load of garbage that some entry-level Tech Support rep told them.

    Listen, repeat it to yourself, and then repeat it to your friends and family: ROOTING DOES NOT, I REPEAT NOT, VOID YOUR WARRANTY. It is actually technically illegal to void the warranty just by gaining extra permissions on a device YOU OWN. However, be aware that many of the customization available after rooting are not supported by any warranty.

    Furthermore, if you rooted and flashed back to a previous version of your phone's unrooted software, in what warped world would you think your warranty is voided? No one at New Breed would begin to know how to look for that, much less be able to prove you rooted.
    Former Verizon Wireless Technical Consultant
  14. Thread Author  Thread Author    #14  
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    Default Re: Carriers need to be held responsible

    Quote Originally Posted by Mortiel View Post
    Ok, so there are a few constant misnomers that are quickly becoming pet peeves of mine, because every seems to think the same load of garbage that some entry-level Tech Support rep told them.

    Listen, repeat it to yourself, and then repeat it to your friends and family: ROOTING DOES NOT, I REPEAT NOT, VOID YOUR WARRANTY. It is actually technically illegal to void the warranty just by gaining extra permissions on a device YOU OWN. However, be aware that many of the customization available after rooting are not supported by any warranty.

    Furthermore, if you rooted and flashed back to a previous version of your phone's unrooted software, in what warped world would you think your warranty is voided? No one at New Breed would begin to know how to look for that, much less be able to prove you rooted.
    They know I was rooted! And when I talked to them on the phone I told them I was because they told me they checked the phone and they could tell I was. I told them I could switch back to stock and no root but they told me its to late. I even asked if I get a new phone from the insurance if they could help me. They could not tell me.

    I am very happy with all the help I am getting but the big picture is being lost. Company's can send out updates to us after the 15 day return policy and if it has issues like this phone did then we are all stuck. I feel like there needs to be a 15 day return policy on the updates as well. If they did that I bet you see a lot less updates with bugs in them.
  15. #15  
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    Default Re: Carriers need to be held responsible

    Quote Originally Posted by fire125k View Post
    They know I was rooted! And when I talked to them on the phone I told them I was because they told me they checked the phone and they could tell I was.
    This is BS. Sorry. Not sure whose BS, but BS.

    Also, I don't think the point of your OP was overlooked. You recieved a number of replies directly addressing that issue. One from me.

    -Frank
    Last edited by FrankXS; 12-01-2011 at 10:06 PM.
    [HTC Thunderbolt™ 4G/LTE!]
    It's not your dream phone. It's the one after that!©
    Look here for a [VZW Coverage Map] to check your area. Select 4G before hitting [Refresh]
  16. #16  

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankXS View Post
    This is BS. Sorry. Not sure whose BS, but BS.

    Also, I don't think the point of your OP was overlooked. You recieved a number of replies directly addressing that issue. One from me.

    -Frank
    Yea don't think they could detect root. I actually just called them right now for the touchscreen issue I am having and they are sending me another thunderbolt. I have to unroot first and get s-on before I send it back ofcourse.
  17. #17  
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    Default Re: Carriers need to be held responsible

    Quote Originally Posted by FrankXS View Post
    This is BS. Sorry. Not sure whose BS, but BS.

    Also, I don't think the point of your OP was overlooked. You recieved a number of replies directly addressing that issue. One from me.

    -Frank
    I personally could, with help from work resources, from traces from the boot and OS partitions, which does contain trace figments of flashing. All things leave ghost images unless sanitized by repeated over-writing. However, I test hardware components on phones for a living. New Breed has no way to test such things.

    This is why I tell people to do their research... when it comes down to it, you (being the general pronoun for all you Verizon customers) are responsible for researching what does what and why. I never expect any billion dollar corporation to tell me what my rights are, and where the loop-holes in their contracts are.



    Now to talk to the OP here: Overall, what does the carrier do? What is their responsibility? To provide you with cellular service. Yes, they sell you phones. Yes, they allow manufacturers to push software updates to your phone over their network. You are not guaranteed a perfect software update from the manufacturer, although Verizon attempts to test the living hell out of updates in hopes updates have minimal negative impacts, but you do not sign a contract with an underwriter guaranteeing perfect updates. The ability (or lack thereof) to roll back updates is not in a carrier's hands. Blackberry allows it... on every carrier. So what would you have the carrier do? What should they be held responsible for?
    Former Verizon Wireless Technical Consultant
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    Default Re: Carriers need to be held responsible

    Quote Originally Posted by Mortiel View Post
    The ability (or lack thereof) to roll back updates is not in a carrier's hands. Blackberry allows it... on every carrier. So what would you have the carrier do? What should they be held responsible for?
    If they can "roll-up" updates, they could certainly "roll-back" updates. If you're saying that it is in HTC's hands, then we disagree. Verizon sells the phone to consumers, not HTC.

    In my opinion, they should either make the updates voluntary (not forced) or they should take responsibility if their update renders a phone inop/broken.

    I understand that recently the broken voicemail notification indicator is an example of them taking responsibility. But I think they should take that responsibility on each and every customer. Not just the mistakes that affect 100 percent of their user base.

    As for what should they do... I would like to see VZW 1) Not make updates mandatory. 2) Offer a roll-back option (even if in-store). 3) Ideally, offer a warranty on their updates (say, extend the 1yr warranty another 3 months for each mandatory update).

    Just FYI... I didn't start this thread. I have accepted the VZW terms of service so I am not complaining about my treatment over the last 10+ years. I'm just suggesting what I think logically they should be responsible for. The OP has a very good point. If they force an update upon you, they should accept responsibility for making it right if something goes wrong. However, I think all this "rooting" discussion is just a distraction. Shouldn't (and probably doesn't) have anything to do with the real issue.

    Now, at 4:20am Denver time... off to vacation for me! Yipee!

    -Frank <---
    [HTC Thunderbolt™ 4G/LTE!]
    It's not your dream phone. It's the one after that!©
    Look here for a [VZW Coverage Map] to check your area. Select 4G before hitting [Refresh]
  19. #19  
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    Default Re: Carriers need to be held responsible

    Quote Originally Posted by FrankXS View Post
    If they can "roll-up" updates, they could certainly "roll-back" updates. If you're saying that it is in HTC's hands, then we disagree. Verizon sells the phone to consumers, not HTC.

    In my opinion, they should either make the updates voluntary (not forced) or they should take responsibility if their update renders a phone inop/broken.

    I understand that recently the broken voicemail notification indicator is an example of them taking responsibility. But I think they should take that responsibility on each and every customer. Not just the mistakes that affect 100 percent of their user base.

    As for what should they do... I would like to see VZW 1) Not make updates mandatory. 2) Offer a roll-back option (even if in-store). 3) Ideally, offer a warranty on their updates (say, extend the 1yr warranty another 3 months for each mandatory update).

    Just FYI... I didn't start this thread. I have accepted the VZW terms of service so I am not complaining about my treatment over the last 10+ years. I'm just suggesting what I think logically they should be responsible for. The OP has a very good point. If they force an update upon you, they should accept responsibility for making it right if something goes wrong. However, I think all this "rooting" discussion is just a distraction. Shouldn't (and probably doesn't) have anything to do with the real issue.

    Now, at 4:20am Denver time... off to vacation for me! Yipee!

    -Frank <---
    My point is that choice #1 and #2 has never, and will never, be in Verizon's hands. The manufacturer of the phone dictates the programming of the update and the manner in which it is implemented. Verizon is solely there as a means of transport, as with everything we do. The manufacturer uses our network, but the entirety of the update itself is up to them. Apple, until recently, never liked involving the carrier in any part of its operation, and that was why you used to need to update solely through iTunes. While as a personal preference, I do not like Apple, I still admit that is probably the least problematic update procedure.

    However, with that said, I do think the manufacturer should extend the warranty. Even though this is not technically in Verizon's hands, I did not lump this with the other two because Verizon could try to strong-arm manufacturers into extending the warranty.

    But is anyone else understanding that Verizon pretty much just gives you cell service? The phone, its operation, its updates, and its warranty are not from Verizon. If you are dropping calls, not getting texts, or losing functionality of cell service, then that is Verizon's area. Why do you think that as soon as the Thunderbolt's update had a problem with the voicemail notification, the update got pulled? Verizon hit the stop button on their end because the voicemail MWI (message waiting indicator) is offered under Verizon service agreements, and the lack of that little thing violates Verizon's end of the contract. Once something like that happens, Verizon then muscles in and overrides the manufacturer.
    Former Verizon Wireless Technical Consultant
  20. #20  
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    Default Re: Carriers need to be held responsible

    Mortiel you make some valid points. I do understand that the manufacturer handles the software updates and vzw pushes them out. However you are forgetting the one big part of it. vzw also approves the software before being pushed out. they have the final word on what gets sent out. and they have always blamed their rigorous testing on the reason for delays. so the fact that they push out software with such major bugs is inexcusable.

    back when I had my bb I remember flashing many software versions. some leaked. some from vzw. the ones from vzw were always the ones that had major flaws!

    If you are going to force manufacturers to lock bootloaders so we can't flash software we want then try to tell customers the warranty will be void, then you as a carrier better be damn well sure that you provide the best bug free versions of the software out to the masses.
  21. #21  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mortiel View Post
    Ok, so there are a few constant misnomers that are quickly becoming pet peeves of mine, because every seems to think the same load of garbage that some entry-level Tech Support rep told them.

    Listen, repeat it to yourself, and then repeat it to your friends and family: ROOTING DOES NOT, I REPEAT NOT, VOID YOUR WARRANTY. It is actually technically illegal to void the warranty just by gaining extra permissions on a device YOU OWN. However, be aware that many of the customization available after rooting are not supported by any warranty.

    Furthermore, if you rooted and flashed back to a previous version of your phone's unrooted software, in what warped world would you think your warranty is voided? No one at New Breed would begin to know how to look for that, much less be able to prove you rooted.
    First, congrats to the op for initiating a very interesting discussion.

    Second, to Mortiel..... I have read of cases of folks being billed the full retail value of a phone after sending back a rooted device and having it replaced by a refurb. They are charged because the phone was rooted and thus had no warranty so no right to return for refurb.

    Are these stories untrue?

    If they are true where does VZW get off charging full retail value for a lousy refurb?
  22. #22  
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    Default Re: Carriers need to be held responsible

    Quote Originally Posted by Mortiel View Post
    My point is that choice #1 and #2 has never, and will never, be in Verizon's hands. The manufacturer of the phone dictates the programming of the update and the manner in which it is implemented. Verizon is solely there as a means of transport,
    Really, I can't agree with this. Just because VZW hires HTC to design and manufacture a product that VZW sells to us does not give VZW the right to pass the buck to their "supplier" when it comes to responsibility.

    I'm an IT consultant and I hire sub-contractors to do certain parts of the job for me (I don't like climbing through ceilings and attics running cable, so sue me! ). Anyway, if that part of the job is done wrong, I can't tell my customer, hey, it wasn't my fault, my contractor did it. Right?

    -Frank
    [HTC Thunderbolt™ 4G/LTE!]
    It's not your dream phone. It's the one after that!©
    Look here for a [VZW Coverage Map] to check your area. Select 4G before hitting [Refresh]
  23. #23  
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    Default Re: Carriers need to be held responsible

    Also keep in mind that we are not able to buy handsets to use on vzw that are not branded from vzw. there must be accountability from both the handset vendor and has if we are left with only one choice.

    vzw saying they are not responsible for issues that are related to the hardware or software and only provide the wireless service is not acceptable.

    I pay vzw for that hardware. I get locked into a contract with vzw for the subsidy of that hardware. they are in essence the retail channel for that hardware so they need to be responsible for support of that device.
  24. #24  
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    The only way they would be able to tell is if he read them a software number or kernel number that does not match the stock ROM.

    Quote Originally Posted by FrankXS View Post
    This is BS. Sorry. Not sure whose BS, but BS.

    Also, I don't think the point of your OP was overlooked. You recieved a number of replies directly addressing that issue. One from me.

    -Frank
  25. #25  
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    Default Re: Carriers need to be held responsible

    Quote Originally Posted by FrankXS View Post
    Really, I can't agree with this. Just because VZW hires HTC to design and manufacture a product that VZW sells to us does not give VZW the right to pass the buck to their "supplier" when it comes to responsibility.

    I'm an IT consultant and I hire sub-contractors to do certain parts of the job for me (I don't like climbing through ceilings and attics running cable, so sue me! ). Anyway, if that part of the job is done wrong, I can't tell my customer, hey, it wasn't my fault, my contractor did it. Right?

    -Frank
    Here's the thing: Cell phone manufacturers are not sub-contractors or just suppliers. Verizon does not hire Apple to work on its towers, however Apple sells its phones in their stores and through every retailer willing to deal with Apple's demands. Apple has suppliers for some of their hardware, for which they cannot blame if their device malfunctions. Cell phone makers are and are not suppliers for product to carriers. See, its more or less a mutual agreement... we provide the water and the manufacturer makes a cup. We want them to make a cup sturdy enough to hold water, but otherwise we leave the shape, color, and size up to them.

    Here's the best analogy I've heard: If you buy a car, and it breaks down, do you blame your local DOT/EPA responsible for maintaining the roads and giving the car maker rules on what the car can/cannot do? If your car is running superbly, but the roads in your area are horrendous, do you blame Ford?

    Point is, place the blame with the party responsible: If Verizon is not providing you with cellular service that does not meet your expectations in any way, then do not blame a cell phone maker. If a phone maker is messing up phones with updates, do not blame Verizon. Instead. play the capitalistic route: Whatever product and/or service is not up to your standards, then go to a competitor: If Verizon service is poor, go to Sprint/AT&T/T-Mobile. If HTC makes poor update decisions, then buy Apple/Motorola/LG/Samsung/RIM.
    Former Verizon Wireless Technical Consultant
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