Is it time for 4G phones to forego replaceable batteries?

**kilofoxtrot** · 05-26-2011, 08:40 AM

I think the advantages of having a non-replaceable battery now outweigh the advantages of having a replaceable battery.

Why? Simply because you can jam more battery into a phone without the bulk when the battery is not replaceable. I can attest to this with having owned or own an iPhone, Macbook Air & Pro, HTC Flyer and a Xoom. All these devices get good to exceptional battery life and all have non-replaceable batteries.

One only has to look at the sheer size of the TBolts OEM extended battery to realize that the stock battery is woefully under "juiced" to provide the moderate to heavy user enough battery to last a day. When I stop to thing about it, I have a charger in my car, work place, backpack, nightstand, home office.. all because I rarely can get through the day without needing to charge my phone.

But wait you say... just get the extended battery. IMO the extended battery turns the nearly too big 'Bolt into a behemoth of a phone that when needed can kill small game with a single blow.

I dont know about you... but I would forgo a replaceable battery if the power of 2750mAH was in the stock Bolt.

How about you?

**breugel** · 05-26-2011, 08:47 AM

No and there is no way to put a 2750maH battery in a stock t bolt with out making it bigger. I bought 3 1500maH batteries with charger from ebay for $11 and can change them when I am camping all weekend with no power.

**itsdollar** · 05-26-2011, 09:09 AM

The more battery mah the bigger the battery will be. We need replaceable batteries to stay until battery technology catches up.

**kilofoxtrot** · 05-26-2011, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by breugel

No and there is no way to put a 2750maH battery in a stock t bolt with out making it bigger. I bought 3 1500maH batteries with charger from ebay for $11 and can change them when I am camping all weekend with no power.

Below is the iPhone's 1420mAH battery. Which is slightly bigger than the 'Bolts 1400mAH battery. You are correct that a 2750 might not fit... but I bet something way bigger than the 1400 would fit given you can put the same battery in the significantly smaller iPhone.

**kilofoxtrot** · 05-26-2011, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by Dollar

The more battery mah the bigger the battery will be. We need replaceable batteries to stay until battery technology catches up.

Having a battery cavity in the phone's frame to accommodate a replaceable battery forces the manufacturer to use a smaller capacity battery. If the battery was non-replaceable, the space used for the cavity could be filled with a higher capacity battery.

**moosc** · 05-26-2011, 09:26 AM

have u seen the xoom battery it nearly takes up the whole assembly. so you want a bigger battery you need to make the phone body larger. the iPhone has smaller screen and can't compete with what thunderbolt can do.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

**kilofoxtrot** · 05-26-2011, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by moosc

have u seen the xoom battery it nearly takes up the whole assembly.

OK... whats wrong with that? Its still a 10" tablet just like the ASUS, Iconia, the upcoming Sammy 10".

Originally Posted by moosc

so you want a bigger battery you need to make the phone body larger. the iPhone has smaller screen and can't compete with what thunderbolt can do.

This is true... but you can get more battery in the body if its not replaceable.

I am not in a 4G area... as far as what the iPhone can do as opposed to what the Bolt can do, powerwise, I dont see a ton of difference.

This isnt about fanboi-ism.

What I do see is that a non replaceable battery takes up a lot of less space than the replaceable one if they have the same mAH. So... logic would dictate that given the Bolts much larger frame, if the battery was nonreplaceable the battery's capacity would be much larger than it is now... and much larger than the iPhone's 1420 battery, which in turn is bigger than the Bolt's stock battery and on a smaller frame to boot.

**trublond** · 05-26-2011, 09:48 AM

I don't believe their is a significant space savings by having a non replaceable battery instead of a replaceable battery. Apple does not have this as a standard for the benefit of the customer, they do it because it allows them to charge you to replace your battery or better yet, sell you a new product. A battery is a battery (1400maH is 1400maH) and space is space. The iPhone is a nice phone, both of my kids have them and like them. But I enjoy my TB, and would NOT have bought it if it did not have a replaceable battery. My kids will be replacing their iPhone 4's in a year or two not because of its performance but because the battery is worn out. I would prefer to spend $20 on a battery.

**FrankXS** · 05-26-2011, 09:49 AM

In my opinion, easy emergency replacement far outweighs the mere 5-10 percent potential increase in power you are likely to glean (if any!). Not to mention that for unique circumstances (like you are going to an amusement park, arriving at 8am and wont' be back to your hotel until 10-11pm) you have the option of using and extended battery or carrying extra batteries. Way better that a built in fixed battery. Especially if the battery in use is damaged or dies a permenant death.

The reason the iPhone does better on its built-in unchangeable battery is because it has only a 3.5 inch screen (diagonal). The ThunderBolt's 4.3 inch screen (diagonal) is 156 percent of the screen area compared to the iPhone's 3.5 inch screen (*i.e. TB=8.15 Sq in. verses iP=5.24 Sq in.).

-Frank

*Note for those who would like to do their own math...
iPhone screen: 1.96 in. X 2.76 in.
TBolt screen: 2.21 in. X 3.69 in.

**kilofoxtrot** · 05-26-2011, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by FrankXS

The reason the iPhone does better on its built-in unchangeable battery is because it has only a 3.5 inch screen (diagonal). The ThunderBolt's 4.3 inch screen (diagonal) is 156 percent of the area compared to the iPhone's 3.5 inch screen (i.e. TB=8.15 Sq in. verses iP=5.24 Sq in.).

-Frank

Frank ... you are missing my point. I dont care about which phone does better on its stock battery. All I care about is the battery's size and capacity. More capacity is better... period. I dont care what phone your are using.

Given the frame size of the Bolt, if the battery was non replaceable, it would be much larger than the stock 1400.

That 156% larger screen area also represents 156% larger frame/chassis capacity for a much larger battery if it was all battery instead of battery and battery frame.

**FrankXS** · 05-26-2011, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by kilofox

Frank ... you are missing my point. I dont care about which phone does better on its stock battery. All I care about is the battery's size and capacity. More capacity is better... period

Vehemently disagree. A phone with a fixed, dead, unchangeable battery is worthless, regardless of its capacity.A phone with a dead, changeable battery is still usable by changing the battery.

-Frank

**kilofoxtrot** · 05-26-2011, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by trublond

I don't believe their is a significant space savings by having a non replaceable battery instead of a replaceable battery. Apple does not have this as a standard for the benefit of the customer, they do it because it allows them to charge you to replace your battery or better yet, sell you a new product. A battery is a battery (1400maH is 1400maH) and space is space. The iPhone is a nice phone, both of my kids have them and like them. But I enjoy my TB, and would NOT have bought it if it did not have a replaceable battery. My kids will be replacing their iPhone 4's in a year or two not because of its performance but because the battery is worn out. I would prefer to spend $20 on a battery.

Its more than just a battery is a battery... a replaceable battery requires the manufacturer to place a battery compartment/frame in the phone's chassis... when a non-replaceable battery is used the manufacturer doesn't need a compartment/frame and can use the extra space for a higher capacity battery.

How can you explain apple putting the same size battery in a much smaller phone than the Bolt?

iPhone batteries are easy to replace on your own BTW.

**kilofoxtrot** · 05-26-2011, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by FrankXS

Vehemently disagree. A phone with a fixed, dead, unchangeable battery is worthless, regardless of its capacity.A phone with a dead, changeable battery is still usable by changing the battery.

-Frank

Its 2011... I shouldn't have to lug around extra batteries. In 1990 I expected that... not now.

**xeon711** · 05-26-2011, 10:29 AM

The idea of a non consumer replaceable battery to gain some battery life is good, if the battery capacity was a great deal more for the same weight, body size and the a battery that will last more then two years. I like the freedom to do what I want with what ever battery I choose. To be stuck with what the phone comes with and have to pay someone to replace the battery, no thanks. Not to mention the ability to upgrade to a larger capacity because I require so cannot be done with a non consumer replaceable battery. Just another money maker for the manufacture to go non replaceable.

**breugel** · 05-26-2011, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by kilofox

Its more than just a battery is a battery... a replaceable battery requires the manufacturer to place a battery compartment/frame in the phone's chassis... when a non-replaceable battery is used the manufacturer doesn't need a compartment/frame and can use the extra space for a higher capacity battery.

How can you explain apple putting the same size battery in a much smaller phone than the Bolt?

iPhone batteries are easy to replace on your own BTW.

I don't think you would get that big of a boost... Maybe 10%. Look in the phone there is not a lot of extra space and if there was they would have made the phone even slimmer and you would be screwed then.

**breugel** · 05-26-2011, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by kilofox

Its 2011... I shouldn't have to lug around extra batteries. In 1990 I expected that... not now.

And until the battery technology catches up you are stuck. That is the problem.

**Mike_is_Mike** · 05-26-2011, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by kilofox

I think the advantages of having a non-replaceable battery now outweigh the advantages of having a replaceable battery.

Why? Simply because you can jam more battery into a phone without the bulk when the battery is not replaceable. I can attest to this with having owned or own an iPhone, Macbook Air & Pro, HTC Flyer and a Xoom. All these devices get good to exceptional battery life and all have non-replaceable batteries.

One only has to look at the sheer size of the TBolts OEM extended battery to realize that the stock battery is woefully under "juiced" to provide the moderate to heavy user enough battery to last a day. When I stop to thing about it, I have a charger in my car, work place, backpack, nightstand, home office.. all because I rarely can get through the day without needing to charge my phone.

But wait you say... just get the extended battery. IMO the extended battery turns the nearly too big 'Bolt into a behemoth of a phone that when needed can kill small game with a single blow.

I dont know about you... but I would forgo a replaceable battery if the power of 2750mAH was in the stock Bolt.

How about you?

If you could guarantee that the non-replaceable battery could last 8-10 hours of heavy use on the Thunderbolt, then yes, I would go with a non-replaceable.

But I don't think it can be done with today's battery technology….without making the TB into a tablet.

Remember the TB is a much bigger battery drain than the iPhone.

**Mike_is_Mike** · 05-26-2011, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by kilofox

Its more than just a battery is a battery... a replaceable battery requires the manufacturer to place a battery compartment/frame in the phone's chassis... when a non-replaceable battery is used the manufacturer doesn't need a compartment/frame and can use the extra space for a higher capacity battery.

How can you explain apple putting the same size battery in a much smaller phone than the Bolt?

iPhone batteries are easy to replace on your own BTW.

The iPhone doesn't have same battery draining features the TB has, 4G, 4.3 screen, etc.

**dubge** · 05-26-2011, 11:00 AM

but there is the extended slim batteries, isnt there a 1700 for the TB that fits in with the stock back? Why wouldnt they put that in there? My guess would be so they can sell you extended batteries and extra stock batteries and make more money off you

**kilofoxtrot** · 05-26-2011, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by Mike_is_Mike_is

The iPhone doesn't have same battery draining features the TB has, 4G, 4.3 screen, etc.

My point exactly. So why in the world does the iPhone have a bigger battery (albeit slight) than the Bolt? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

Sent from my HTC Flyer P512 using Tapatalk

**vzwuser76** · 05-26-2011, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by kilofox

My point exactly. So why in the world does the iPhone have a bigger battery (albeit slight) than the Bolt? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

Sent from my HTC Flyer P512 using Tapatalk

Part of your question was answered in the message you are replying to. Because of the smaller internal components in the iphone (screen, 3G radio) they are able to put a larger battery in a smaller frame. Have you looked at all of the LTE phones being released on Verizon? They are all pretty big. That's not just the 4.3" screen. Look at the Tbolt, Charge, or Revolution. They are all much bigger than the Droid X which has the same screen (and does good to great on battery). It has to do with the LTE chip. The larger screen just compunds the issue.

You are correct that they wouldn't have to have a battery tray with a nonreplaceable battery. But that will probably only net you around .25mm either way. That extra space is not going to gain you an extra 4 hours of use. The slim extended batteries, even if they are OEM and have an additional 300mAh net you an extra hour, maybe two.

That is IMHO the real reason why apple hasn't introduced an LTE phone. I read last year that they are working on battery density (getting more mAh out of the same physical space). I don't think the driving force behind that is to get more power for their 3G phones. It's to be able to power an LTE device with a nonreplaceable battery.

I also agree with what someone said earlier about they don't want a user replaceable battery so they can charge you to replace it or upsell you on a new device. But more than that, if they did make the battery replaceable, then you'd have what all other phones have. Many different manufacturers selling replacement batteries. Apple doesn't like to have non approved parts or accessories going into their devices.

I've had a few ipods in my time and one thing every one of them has had in common. After the initial 12 month warranty period, the battery needed to be replaced. I got the extended warranty on my first one because I was shelling out quite a bit (at the time) for the device. After I had the battery replaced on month 16, when I got my next ipod I put the extended warranty on it. That one had to have the battery replaced on month 15. And such was the case with every other one I have had. I'll agree when the battery is fresh, they get great battery life (firends with iphones/ipods as well) but after awhile they go downhill & need to be replaced. I've never known anyone who hasn't had their battery replaced in an ipod/iphone who had it for any amount of time.

**FrankXS** · 05-26-2011, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by vzwuser76

I've had a few ipods in my time and one thing every one of them has had in common. After the initial 12 month warranty period, the battery needed to be replaced. I got the extended warranty on my first one because I was shelling out quite a bit (at the time) for the device. After I had the battery replaced on month 16, when I got my next ipod I put the extended warranty on it. That one had to have the battery replaced on month 15. And such was the case with every other one I have had. I'll agree when the battery is fresh, they get great battery life (firends with iphones/ipods as well) but after awhile they go downhill & need to be replaced. I've never known anyone who hasn't had their battery replaced in an ipod/iphone who had it for any amount of time.

Add to this that prolly 8 out of 10 people will simply buy a new device when the non-user changeable battery fails. More $ for the manufacturer!

-Frank

**Mike_is_Mike** · 05-26-2011, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by dubge

but there is the extended slim batteries, isnt there a 1700 for the TB that fits in with the stock back? Why wouldnt they put that in there? My guess would be so they can sell you extended batteries and extra stock batteries and make more money off you

Those batteries usually AREN'T what they say they are.

The Seido "1600" is really 1305! The "1700" is probably only 1400 or so -- the same as the OM battery.

**Forgetful** · 05-26-2011, 01:54 PM

Meh taking options away from the consumer ends up screwing us. There would not be a signifigant increase in capacity having a non replaceable battery. And now you can't add a extended if your lifestyle requires it. I don't know why some people would like a more restricted end product for a minimal gain. Now if we could get a phone powered by a radio isotope like H-3 or one of the heavy ones I'm all ears since the half life is 12 years. But that brings a whole new set of issues from the ignorant public and polititions to morons that cannot dispose of anything properly.

**worwig** · 05-26-2011, 02:07 PM

It is true.
A replaceable battery takes the additional small connectors and end caps on the LiIon batteries. And replaceable batteries require safety circuits in them to prevent over/undercharge, and over current. With a non-replaeacble battery this can be installed on the existing main circuit board, and maybe be a bit more compact.

But in the end, the space saving is very small. So the amount of added capacity is tiny. For now, I prefer simply carrying a second battery that is replaceable. And fairly cheap.