01-06-2014 02:47 PM
33 12
tools
  1. Indigoquilter's Avatar
    The biggest problem is that there really isn't anything physically wrong with your tablet, or it would have exhibited this behavior from the beginning. It's a software issue (of some kind) and simply exchanging your existing tablet for a new one will not solve anything, because either it's going to have the update on it when you buy it, or very shortly afterward. In any event, the same update will cause the same problem.

    And yes, of course you could make the argument that the next unit, if it doesn't already *have* the update, will only ever download it but you won't tell it to go ahead and install it. But how long are you going to let that pending update operation sit there? Until the Cybermen come up out of the London sewers and try to take over... oh, crap, they've already done that. Well, until the Daleks come and decide to wipe out... whoops, they've already done that, too. Well, what about the Siluri... oh, never mind.

    The point is that until Google fixes this, we're all of us well and truly screwed, basically.

    Posted via Android Central App
    Yep, this is what I was wondering. Thanks for letting me know. It's strange that the problem seems to be worse on Nexus models, though. Do you have any idea how long it's likely to be before Google fix this? More to the point, is there anything I can and should be doing now, while it's still within the magic one year? Or is it just a matter of gritting my teeth, seeing what Google releases, and if Google don't fix it, installing Cyanogenmod or similar?

    To the people telling me that it's really easy to revert to 4.3: yeah, I think I'll follow the people who say it's not for beginners, and my own judgement, but thanks all the same. And to the people who seem to think that I have a responsibility to educate myself to the point where I can revert to 4.3: um, no, it's not. It would be fair to say that I have a responsibility to be careful with my tablet, not to throw it at walls, for instance. In my case, not only do I have no knowledge at all of how to do this, but I also have disability-related reasons why I'm extremely likely to mess it up. So refraining from doing something that has a high likelihood of damaging my tablet is the sensible course of action. I do realise that once you know how to do it, it seems simple, but then that would be like me running around telling you all that you can do highly skilled hand-quilting this very week, even if you have never picked up a needle in your lives, just because I've been doing it so long (and have a natural talent for it) that it seems easy to me by now.
    12-05-2013 01:01 PM
  2. paintdrinkingpete's Avatar
    There used to be a program back in the day to root and re-ROM the HTC EVO 4G. It was great for those of us who aren't developers. It is a shame that no such software seems to exist for the Nexus series of devices today.
    ...
    I'm not familiar with this program you speak of, but I'm assuming it wasn't an "official" program, but rather one made available by an independent developer. The wugfresh toolkit is simply another example of such a tool.

    You can't just double-click the flashing batch file in Mac OS X. Likewise, there's no explanation by Google of modifying your system like Someguy01234 said above to get the fastboot command to work everywhere. In fact, how would the average person even *know* about such things as bash or path statements? I know a bit about bash and am comfortable navigating around via CLI and even I don't (didn't) know how to modify and add things to path.

    And, to be honest, I'm of really mixed feelings here about who's responsibility it should be to support the hackability of an OS which is designed to be hackable by a company which ostensibly believes in and supports the F/OSS movement and the hacker ethic. I think Google should build a program to root and re-ROM devices, but not all hardware works quite the same way so maybe the phone makers should make ports. But then, the community itself will want abilities and features and so maybe they should do a port, or maybe scratch-build the thing.
    I agree with you to a point, but the fact is that Android is an "OS which is designed to be hackable", but of course you have to have at least a basic knowledge of what's going on before you can dive right in and start messing with things. Pretty much any Linux distro is the same way.

    I mean, once a tool is available to allow any novice preform a function, it's not really "hacking" any more, is it? At that point it is simply a feature set.

    Now, I do personally believe that Google should provide desktop software to facilitate flashing images on Nexus devices, but I guess they don't feel that they are obligated to do so.

    If you don't understand the process, you have no business playing around in the guts of your OS.

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using AC Forums mobile app
    I think a better way to phrase it would be "If you're not willing to take the time to learn the process, *and* take responsibility for your actions, then you have no business playing around in the guts of the OS"

    Oh, so then it's just too bad for users who simply want to revert to a prior version of Android, like with the 4.4 problem?
    To an extent...yes. This is unfortunate, but you should understand that it's not a "simply" matter either.

    "As simple as you're going to get" doesn't mean that they can be safely and reliably done by people who have no idea how to do any of this, though. I'll trust the many people on this thread who've said that it's not safe for beginners, if you don't mind.

    A friend who does do this sort of thing for a living has offered to install Cyanogenmod if all else fails. Meanwhile, PC World have said that if the item is defective, which means that I have to speak to Asus, then I'm eligible for a replacement. I'm going to ring Asus in the morning and see what they say, though I've a nasty feeling that all advice will begin with doing a factory reset, and from what I've heard that won't fix the problem. The thing is, I don't want to spend hours copying over all my settings and bits of info, and putting them back on, if it turns out that there's an update for KitKat on the way which will fix everything. So to repeat my earlier question: how soon would people guess that an update is likely to appear, and how much is it realistically likely to fix?
    I would *definitely* recommend a factory reset. Despite what you've heard, that actually does fix a lot of issues, especially if we're talking about issues that have popped as a direct result of installing an update. I can't guarantee that this will help in your case, but it would be the first recommended step to take.

    If your friend knows his way around Android well enough to offer to install CyanogenMod, he should be able to assist in simply reverting back to 4.3 as well, if that's all you really want to do.


    In more minor grumbling, why did they get rid of the colour in the indicators for battery and wifi? It wasn't just pretty, it was actually functional. I do remember the days of monochrome computing systems, I grew up with green on black screens, but I thought all that was long behind us.
    Honestly, I don't get it either. I very much preferred the blue icon indicators, and think that the white looks "bleh"

    You haveto be willing to educate yourself, for the life of me I couldn't figure out how to even unlock let alone root my nexus 7. No one tutorials can walk you thru the Proteus unless your running exactly and precisely the same pc as all as mobile device and pc and same operating systems. I found Wugfresh app. I struggled because I didn't slow down and read everything up front once I had the correct device and is, that's all, select those and the app does everything for you. I still have no ideas about the guys of a android but with wugfresh my nexus 7 is unlocked, rooted and reverted back to jelly bean!

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
    I do realise that once you know how to do it, it seems simple, but then that would be like me running around telling you all that you can do highly skilled hand-quilting this very week, even if you have never picked up a needle in your lives, just because I've been doing it so long (and have a natural talent for it) that it seems easy to me by now.
    It's not exactly the same thing though...as using Wugfresh toolkit isn't really comparable to "highly skilled" anything. It's a tool that helps novice users with a basic understanding of the process get things done.

    I have never picked up a needle in my life, and while I doubt I could be doing any "highly skilled hand-quilting" (I don't even know what that is) in that amount of time, I am willing to bet that at the very least I could learn the basics within a week if I was willing to learn and spend the time to do so...especially if you provided me a tool that could automate many of the more tedious tasks involved (as the wugfresh toolkit does)

    I can honestly say though, if I needed some hand-quilting done, I'd find someone to do it for me because I have no interest nor the time in learning myself...so I get that.

    I'm not trying to talk you into doing anything you're not comfortable with...just adjusting the analogy a bit.
    12-05-2013 01:55 PM
  3. Tall Mike 2145's Avatar
    Yep, this is what I was wondering. Thanks for letting me know. It's strange that the problem seems to be worse on Nexus models, though.
    Here's something for you to mull over the next time you're down the pub with a couple of your mates, over a pint of ale or something equally good: Times have changed, and products of the modern era are really only half the thing you bought, and the other half is something you really never bought and can never touch, and you don't actually own. But yet, many good people such as yourself still are thinking of this product in the same sense you think of a rake or a shovel or a brick or even a cricket bat.

    Do you have any idea how long it's likely to be before Google fix this? More to the point, is there anything I can and should be doing now, while it's still within the magic one year? Or is it just a matter of gritting my teeth, seeing what Google releases, and if Google don't fix it, installing Cyanogenmod or similar?
    The short answer is I have absolutely no idea. The somewhat longer answer is Google is presumably aware of the problem and, equally presumably, is working on fixing it. With any luck, 4.4.1 will nail whatever the heck it is that's causing this problem and the others that other people here have experienced. My best guess is it'll probably be out within the next few weeks, but remember something. I'm just another random guy sitting in front of another computer on a different continent from where you are, and there's no way for me to "know" the answer. Then again, there's probably only a handful of people within Google who might have an authoritative guess, and those would be the people actually working the problem.

    For your sake and mine and many other peoples', I hope it is very soon.

    To your last points, which I'm not going to quote, I will say that I completely understand where you are coming from. There is a legitimate expectation that you have the responsibility to know enough to operate the device you bought to your satisfaction. You are responsible for looking out for your own interests where the device is concerned. For example, your own user data is your responsibility to safeguard and back up, not Google's or the device manufacturer's, or the retail store you bought it from, etc. But how far should this extend? That's a great question with a huge gray area to it, and there's probably no one singular good answer to it.

    You're also right that rooting/flashing/otherwise mucking about with these things is as easy for us as hand-quilting is for you, and as hard for you as conversely hand-quilting would be for us.

    Oh, and about CyanogenMod, et al (since there are a lot of these sorts of options out there for Android-running devices): Yes, that would be an option for you because, if you're going to get into rooting and flashing your tablet, you would be opening yourself up to a community which produces a universe of options. But also realize that Google (and the hardware maker) are in the business of selling you a product. These various ROM developers are not developing this stuff for you, even if they might happen to listen to your feedback. They are in it for themselves. You make quilts. You like making quilts because that's what you do. Cyanogen produces ROMs because that's what he does. He has various devices, and he has friends and colleagues who have various devices, and so he develops stuff to be used on those devices because that's his hobby. He's not trying to "make a product". And that's the case for Caulkin and for a gazillion other ROM developers out there. They are doing it because they want to, and so it is their hobby -- arguably one they are really, really good at -- but just remember it's more along the lines of a hobby for them.

    I don't mean to scare you or put you off by saying that. If anything, it should encourage you. But it should also keep you mindful of what you are becoming involved in. You would then be collecting "digital hobbyist quilts" if you like.
    12-05-2013 07:39 PM
  4. Tall Mike 2145's Avatar
    I'm not familiar with this program you speak of, but I'm assuming it wasn't an "official" program, but rather one made available by an independent developer. The wugfresh toolkit is simply another example of such a tool.
    Sorry; at the time I wrote the post you quoted, I couldn't remember the name of the project. It is called unrEVOked and yes, you're right: it was produced by one (or more?) independent developers. It actually was a pretty darned good little program that worked exceptionally well. Take a look at their site. It would be wonderful to see someone else learn about it and pick up the torch. I tried looking at the wugfresh web site the other day, but I didn't get very far with that because I've been really busy lately in my personal life with work, etc. From what little I've seen, it looks decent. And, if it does what it claims and does so as simply and straight-fowardly as it seems to claim, then folks such as Indigoquilter should have little problem using it, so long as it does properly support their device.

    I agree with you to a point, but the fact is that Android is an "OS which is designed to be hackable", but of course you have to have at least a basic knowledge of what's going on before you can dive right in and start messing with things. Pretty much any Linux distro is the same way.
    One can make the claim that GNU/Linux is an OS "by geeks, for geeks" but, at the end of the day, distros are to an extent "products" and surely the various commercial interests involved think of GNU/Linux as product, not as a hobbyist operating system. Likewise, Google clearly thinks of Android as a product, because they are in the business of having business-oriented, money-making ecosystem for Android, and it is ultimately a credible platform in every sense of the word.

    Therefore, is it hackable? Yes. Should certain kinds of, shall we say "utility" functions, be facilitated with software for any normal technology user to use for flashing? I would make the argument that they should. I don't expect Google to support -- or to be obligated to support -- anything they don't put out. For instance, let's say CyanogenMod is fundamentally close enough to Google's original product that you could use such a flashing tool to install one of his ROMs. That's fine and wonderful, but if his stuff didn't work with it, that's not their problem. It would be his, assuming he actually felt that was a significant matter. But if I want to go to Google's support site and D/L a factory image that's appropriate for my device and install it, then yes, I think it is perfectly appropriate for Google to have a utility which allows me to do that.
    12-05-2013 08:07 PM
  5. Indigoquilter's Avatar
    I'm pretty ill today, so I'm not able to make much sense of the replies, I'm afraid. (This is another example of why I'm not up to rooting my tablet: I have substantial cognitive disorders.) Anyway, KitKat (now 4.4.2) continues to be rather horrible on my 2012 Nexus 7. Boat Browser has got even worse, so that as well as word reflow no longer working, random paragraphs of text are made huge while others are tiny. My medication reminder app no longer chimes, despite being set to do so. It's still horribly laggy. The keyboard is doing weird things.

    I spoke to the friend who's an Android app software developer, and he said that to be honest, he's never put Cyanogenmod on a Nexus 7 and he's not quite sure what would happen, particularly in terms of fixing the problems. Right now, it's sounding like it's not worth the risk and hassle.

    It looks like I have three options.

    1) Hang in there and hope that KitKat becomes more stable. It's been a while now, and updates have been released, but if anything it's worse. Is it likely to improve?

    2) Get my friend to put Cyanogenmod on my Nexus 7. If it doesn't work out, I've just wrecked my tablet and have no tablet at all.

    3) Buy a LJ G Pad 8.3, which is something I was considering a while ago (still not 100% sure about whether I want the bigger size, and come to that my finances), and sell the Nexus 7 to my boyfriend (now for a lower price than originally planned due to KitKat, damnit, and even then he's broke right now), who isn't visually impaired and is fine with standard browsers at standard text sizes. The G Pad is running Jellybean 4.2.2. Hang onto Jellybean for dear life and refuse KitKat upgrades when they come along. If I do this, am I going to find that I have an unhappy tablet in a year or two due to being on older software? And am I likely to run into any other problems, come to that, such as its running a slightly different version of Android? I'm starting to get tempted to buy one, spend a week playing with it to see if it works for me, and if it doesn't, I think I'd be covered by the distance selling regulations and could return it.
    01-06-2014 04:30 AM
  6. Indigoquilter's Avatar
    Asus say that a factory reset should restore it to Jellybean, and then I simply don't accept the invitation to update to KitKat when it turns up. Surely people here have tried that? What happened? I don't want to mess around with that (it'll take hours, and I'll lose app data) unless it's got a reasonable chance of working.
    01-06-2014 07:45 AM
  7. paintdrinkingpete's Avatar
    Asus say that a factory reset should restore it to Jellybean, and then I simply don't accept the invitation to update to KitKat when it turns up. Surely people here have tried that? What happened? I don't want to mess around with that (it'll take hours, and I'll lose app data) unless it's got a reasonable chance of working.
    Android is not like iOS in the sense that doing a "factory reset" DOES NOT revert the OS version or remove any updates. When you do a factory reset on an Android device, it simply removes all app and user data and essentially gets you back to an "out of the box" state, i.e. you'll have to go through the setup wizard again and install any and all apps you may want again. If your device has Android 4.4 on it when you do the factory reset, it will still have Android 4.4 on it after the reset (I'm not sure why Asus would have told you otherwise).

    Despite this being the case, have you tried the factory reset yet????? If you haven't, I still believe this may fix a lot if not all of your problems, even if won't revert the software version. As I mentioned in my post above, It's pretty well documented that many of the types of problems that occur after a major OS update can be fixed by doing a full wipe/factory reset. Yes, you'll have to set the device up all over again, but this seems no more painful than any of the other options you mention. If you have already done a factory reset and that hasn't improved things, then my next recommended steps get a bit more complicated.
    01-06-2014 08:41 AM
  8. Indigoquilter's Avatar
    Thank you, that makes a lot more sense. I knew I'd seen something about how a factory reset wasn't the answer, and indeed, if it were, why would so many people be having this discussion?

    By now it sounds like a factory reset is worth doing anyway, whether I keep the tablet or pass it on to my partner. Sort of a spring-clean. Is there any way of saving app-specific data? I mean info specific to that app, not just obvious things like ebooks (already in Dropbox).
    01-06-2014 02:47 PM
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