02-03-2011 07:30 PM
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  1. valueman's Avatar
    I would like to hear to general discussions about the whole menatility that the tech savvy smartphone users have about updates.

    When it comes to OS updates we (at least many of us) expect them, and we expect them for free (of course). We expect it because that is the way it has been, at or at least that’s how it has been for many.

    The recent outrage about Froyo on Galaxy S phones could stir Samsung to get on the stick. But I see a chance that it could have the opposite effect – on all manufacturers.

    A little over a year ago I bought my Captivate I also bought some netbooks from AT&T for our staff to use in the field. They were running Windows XP. I don’t expect AT&T to provide OS updates for those computers. Such a notion seems silly, but that’s what we expect for our smartphones.

    Smartphones are really nothing more than small computers. So what if those who sell smartphones just take the same attitude as those who sell bigger computers? You buy it with an OS, and if you want to change it, that’s on you.
    01-19-2011 11:50 AM
  2. Paralegal99's Avatar
    Who waits for official updates? Root baby Root!!

    In all seriousness, I think as long as they say they are updating we should just sit back and wait. We don't ask team ****** for eta's, why should carriers be any different.
    With all due respect...rooting and flashing custom ROMs are not the solution for everybody. Look at all the different ROMS out there on XDA and here. They are all good and I can't say enough good things about the developers who pour their heart and souls into creating them...but after hours of reviewing them all...it seems it's hit and miss with the ROMs. There seems to be little problems or features that don't work that causes someone like me to hesitate in going down that road. If there was an official Froyo code released for each of the Galaxy S phones for the developers to use to put together the ROMs...that would be more than great...unfortunately, what I see is the developers are trying to piece together ROMs with bits and pieces from other Froyo developments for other phones...and it seems that can be problematic. If Samsung and/or the carriers don't want to update...then release the code into the wild and let the developers do what Samsung or carriers can't or won't do.

    After listening to last weeks podcast...all I ask of the hosts is not to be Samsung apologists. Please just don't say..."I don't know why Samsung is not releasing the update"...then dismiss any and all other speculations and theories. Not all speculations and theories are necessarily "Conspiracy Theories". What really got me going was when one of the hosts stated how he knew and had all these inside contacts...but hasn't seen fit to use those same contacts for some information. At least comment on how badly Samsung is handling this whole debacle with the various tweets and releases that does nothing to inform the people who bought their product about the upgrades. This just fans the fire even hotter. Samsung needs to stop releasing vauge information and let the people know what the hell is going on! I am very much looking forward to hearing this week's podcast. I do enjoy listening to the opinions and reviews...but hopefully a little more objective regarding this issue than last week.
    Paralegal99
    01-19-2011 11:50 AM
  3. icebike's Avatar
    I would like to hera to general discussions about the whole menatility that the tech savvy smartphone users have about updates.

    When it comes to OS updates we (at least many of us) expect them, and we expect them for free (of course). We expect it because that is the way it has been, at or at least thats how it has been for many.
    You pretty much answered your own question while asking it.

    The world changed with the arrival of computers and the death of desktop calculators.

    The world has changed with the arrival of the smart-phone and the death of feature phones and dumb as a rock phones.

    No one would buy a computer that could never ever be upgraded. Its why we do things with computers. We know they can be upgraded rather than being tossed out for a new one.

    Even your mom understands that a smartphone is a computer. Why would anyone expect that it could NOT or should NOT get updated to fix bugs an add features when the OS we all chose to use is designed PRECISELY for that?

    Its not an entitlement mentality, its the primary reason for choosing Android.
    01-19-2011 11:57 AM
  4. uansari1's Avatar
    Regardless of what really is or isn't going on behind the scenes, many people seem to be missing the point. Samsung is either (1) screwing its existing customers in the hopes of selling new handsets; (2) holding updates hostage by wanting to charge carriers (Samsung has already said this isn't the case); or (3) Samsung is just plain inept and can't make timely updates.

    Regardless of the reason, people should start voting with their wallets so that Samsung gets the message. You don't reasonably keep up with updates, we won't buy your phones. Money is the only thing corporations understand. I won't buy a Samsung handset (Nexus handsets aside) until Samsung has repaired its reputation... and in all fairness the same goes for Sony Ericcson.
    01-19-2011 11:59 AM
  5. jfiguraMT's Avatar
    Samsung and Verizon both need to realize the lack of communication has hurt each of them. Samsung with its great hardware has kicked its own reputation in the can because they have not followed through with their public statements.

    Verizon, will and has taken financial hits in the form of lost equipment. For me, I was given a Droid X even though I purchased my Fascinate from an authorized dealer.

    I was angry that the SF's GPS wouldn't work, that my first one had to replaced because it couldn't do OTA updates (according to Verizon there were over 10,000 devices with that defect), and I too was promised Froyo by Verizon rep.

    The phone was/is still "laggy". It hesitates when opening the app drawer or other functions. Music player cannot handle having the equalizer enabled else it causes your music to skip. The media dock I bought, yes, no audio out etc without Froyo but this was not stated anywhere on the box, only inside the box in the manual.

    I sent off two letters. One to Samsung, and one to Verizon's VP of customer experience. Guess who DID NOT respond?

    Samsung will never get another dollar of my money. Whether it is phones, TV's, Blu Ray players, etc.

    --JD
    01-19-2011 12:05 PM
  6. icebike's Avatar
    After listening to last weeks podcast...all I ask of the hosts is not to be Samsung apologists.
    I'm not saying AC or the AC podcasters are apologists but there seems to be a big double standard.

    Every leaked blurycam shot gets a front page story regardless of how dodgy the source.

    But nothing is said about horrible customer service from a carrier or a manufacturer regardless of the preponderance of evidence, and regardless of how widely it is being reported even in the mainstream press.

    The fact that the story has hit mainstream sources should at least rate a "we don't believe this but....." article. Instead: Crickets, or obscure chatter in the forums.

    I could understand this approach if AC wanted to remain on the Good side of the carriers and manufacturers in order to assure access to evaluation units or other inside information. But at every turn AC denies any such special dealings, insisting they pay for every device.

    "We think this is Bogus" should be followed by "And here is why", rather than "So we are not going to report it".
    SmokeCage.com likes this.
    01-19-2011 12:09 PM
  7. mikellyny's Avatar
    I would like to hera to general discussions about the whole menatility that the tech savvy smartphone users have about updates.

    When it comes to OS updates we (at least many of us) expect them, and we expect them for free (of course). We expect it because that is the way it has been, at or at least thats how it has been for many.

    The recent outrage about Froyo on Galaxy S phones could stir Samsung to get on the stick. But I see a chance that it could have the opposite effect on all manufacturers.

    A little over a year ago I bought my Captivate I also bought some netbooks from AT&T for our staff to use in the field. They were running Windows XP. I dont expect AT&T to provide OS updates for those computers. Such a notion seems silly, but thats what we expect for our smartphones.

    Smartphones are really nothing more than small computers. So what if those who sell smartphones just take the same attitude as those who sell bigger computers? You buy it with an OS, and if you want to change it, thats on you.
    I sort of like this idea, but, I think that we still need to be notified when an update is available (ala Windows or Linux updates). We would need some sort of update utility that would check our device against a known server and if updates were available perhaps allow us some sort of selection and then update. I could live with this over the air or through a computer connection.

    The way things stand right now it appears we are at the mercy of the carriers and that is just not tenable. As many above I purchased my EPIC 4G back in August with the expectation of Froyo (to be delivered soon) and as of today still no Froyo.

    Just my two cents.
    01-19-2011 12:14 PM
  8. Paralegal99's Avatar
    It is unrealistic that tech journalists and bloggers don't report and/or review products from any company....say like...Samsung for example. But what I would like to see in the future is that for any new product that is reported on or reviewed that a disclaimer is attached (vocally or in writing) indicating that the company has a reputation for not supporting previous products with updates or upgrades, or consistently issues misleading statements and/or vague statements regarding previously released products.

    Information like this can then provide "whole picture" information for anyone contemplating on buying a companies product.

    I honestly believe that if this became a standard practice, companies would be more attentive to supporting previously released products. Can you imagine reading or listen to a glowing review of a product...only to end with a disclaimer that the company has a history of abandoning their previous products? Yeah...that would make me take notice!

    Paralegal99
    01-19-2011 12:15 PM
  9. icebike's Avatar
    I sort of like this idea, but, I think that we still need to be notified when an update is available (ala Windows or Linux updates).

    Just my two cents.
    What we need is for someone to pour some big money on CyanogenMod and have them become a business with an reliable income stream and a member of the Open Handset Alliance so that there was a viable third party alternative.
    01-19-2011 12:19 PM
  10. doz's Avatar
    Ok, I'll start off by saying I'm an Epic owner from nearly the beginning. Perhaps I've been lucky but I have not encountered any of the major issues (gps, etc) people have reported. I'm not the biggest fan of what Samsung is doing (or more not doing) recently but really I don't care since I'm happy with it as is. Delayed/canceled updates are something that every manufacturer does, I remember waiting a very long time for HTC to update my previous phones to the point where I went ahead and did it myself via xda. Now I know rooting, etc is not for everyone but if it isn't your thing, and you are not happy with the phone you purchased, why did you keep it? A smartphone isn't a trivial purchase, you should be completely happy with it out of the box. Nowhere in your contract is the manufacturer committed to updated anything on the phone, yes we expect it but outside of warranty issues they really have no obligations. Most of them will probably go a step further because its good business to keep your customers happy but again, they are not required to.
    That said, Samsung you've probably lost me as a future customer. The entire lack of transparency with the updates is bs, if there are problems releasing it just let us know, and that goes for any manufacturer.
    01-19-2011 12:29 PM
  11. JMusic's Avatar
    The lack of transparency is a large issue. A large portion of the people who are currently upset might be placated by some factual information.

    For the rest of us...

    There is something fishy, and I am not sure that I am willing to buy in to the response Samsung made that "Samsung is not charging carriers for Froyo updates to Galaxy S."

    In fact, my cynical mind and law firm background makes me think, well, of course they aren't charging carriers for Froyo updates to "Galaxy S". The "Galaxy S" wasn't even released in the U.S. and that model is already updated anyway, the charges already paid. The hold up is because they are charging carriers for Froyo updates to "Epic", "Fascinate", etc.

    Yeah, working in a law firm will make you distrust everybody, especially corporations, because you see this sort of word twisting actually happen on a daily basis.
    01-19-2011 12:30 PM
  12. icebike's Avatar
    Yeah, working in a law firm will make you distrust everybody, especially corporations, because you see this sort of word twisting actually happen on a daily basis.
    "There will never be another Nexus One" (Google)
    "Steve Jobs has a hormonal imbalance" (Apple)

    Yeah, it happens.
    01-19-2011 12:44 PM
  13. ctleng76's Avatar
    Ok, I'll start off by saying I'm an Epic owner from nearly the beginning. Perhaps I've been lucky but I have not encountered any of the major issues (gps, etc) people have reported. I'm not the biggest fan of what Samsung is doing (or more not doing) recently but really I don't care since I'm happy with it as is. Delayed/canceled updates are something that every manufacturer does, I remember waiting a very long time for HTC to update my previous phones to the point where I went ahead and did it myself via xda. Now I know rooting, etc is not for everyone but if it isn't your thing, and you are not happy with the phone you purchased, why did you keep it? A smartphone isn't a trivial purchase, you should be completely happy with it out of the box. Nowhere in your contract is the manufacturer committed to updated anything on the phone, yes we expect it but outside of warranty issues they really have no obligations. Most of them will probably go a step further because its good business to keep your customers happy but again, they are not required to.
    That said, Samsung you've probably lost me as a future customer. The entire lack of transparency with the updates is bs, if there are problems releasing it just let us know, and that goes for any manufacturer.
    So you don't care about receiving the updates. Well good for you! I wish I could say the same. Some of us purchased this phone based on a statement from Samsung that it would receive an update to 2.2 by the end of 2010. To me that is a form of false advertising. I understand delays and such, but there hasn't been any sort of reassurance by Samsung that there will even be an update. Nor have there been any reasons given for the delay. Samsung obviously hung the upgrade carrot out there to influence customers to purchase their products. I feel that all of this complaining is healthy. It keeps companies like Samsung and the carriers honest, and forces them to be more transparent about these issues.
    01-19-2011 12:45 PM
  14. broken925's Avatar
    So... I've had the Epic since launch day. Was diggin' on the phone - a lot. Loaded the DK28 Froyo leak when it was posted a while back and have been diggin' the phone even more.

    Sure there were issues at the beginning - the phone bogged down about a couple of weeks into the leaked build but a factory restore fixed it up (but I lost my Angry Birds progress - three stars all the way to the Christmas Eve level - still haven't gone back to the game. Too heartbroken GPS is okaaay - sometimes I get a quick lock, other times not so much. Using LauncherPro to hide the bloatware that Sprint deemed necessary to load on the phone (since no love for us Macintosh users in the developer community making it difficult to root.) I guess the whole point of this intro was to show that you have to go through a ton of stuff just to get a user experience that is comfortable for the individual - in this case, me.

    As for a general release of Froyo across the entire Galaxy S line... What I don't understand is:

    1) Outside the U.S. they have all been updated, why is it so difficult to do it here? (and carrier bloatware can't be the reason - not across all 4 carriers)

    And, more importantly,

    2) The Nexus S is almost the SAME DANG PHONE and it's running 2.3

    You (Sammy) expect us to believe that the differences are so vast between the international S lines and the Nexus S that you can't make this happen?

    This is supposed to be your flagship line of smartphones and it's like Fisher Price is running the show.

    I don't get it.
    01-19-2011 12:48 PM
  15. j_benj#AC's Avatar
    I've been working with the Adobe AIR for Android extension for Flash CS5 for a while and I can't test my own apps on my Epic without 2.2. Rooting and flashing a custom ROM is a fine idea, but in all honesty, as a developer I need to test my apps on stock phones to guarantee the broadest compatibility.

    For a couple of months I've been asking a friend of mine who has an EVO to test my apk's for me. While that's a nice thing, I can't keep expecting him to drop everything and let me install new versions every time I change one line of code.

    When I bought my Epic back in late October, I asked specifically about the 2.2 update knowing that soon I would need it for this AIR development. The Sprint guy swore up, down, left, right and nine ways to Sunday that the update was days/weeks away and I'd have it before I knew it. Now here we are. I'm beyond my 30 day return period.. I'm stuck. And it's seriously hampering my development projects.

    I accept my own responsibility in this.. I shouldn't have taken the Sprint rep's word for it. It's totally my fault that I'm in this mess. But that being said, Samsung themselves promised me Froyo by the "end of the year" (via Twitter from @GalaxySSupport) and it hasn't materialized. I would hope that there would be some courtesy to the customer base from Samsung and Sprint instead of the smarmy, cut/paste PR we've gotten from them on this.
    01-19-2011 12:49 PM
  16. icebike's Avatar
    Theory 506:

    Maybe Samsung has realized that the wonky file system they use in all the Galaxy phones is not going to fly, and they have decided to go with Ext4 as Google did with the Nexus S.

    Such a in-place conversion (without data loss) could take quite a while to perfect.
    01-19-2011 12:52 PM
  17. Tarpit_Carnivore's Avatar
    I'm not a Samsung owner but I think I can relate to your frustration as a current Eris owner and can only offer this.

    Much like all of you, when I bought my Eris 2.0 was out for the Droid 1 and all I read from HTC was "2.0/1 is on it's way, aiming for Q1" when realistically it didn't come out until almost Q3 for the Eris. The single biggest thing I read to ease my frustration when someone on a forum made the statement of the following:

    "The Hero/Eris was designed for the 1.5 OS and the changes to 2.0/1 are incredibly drastic which is probably causing a lot of the headaches in the delay of it rolling out because it's not just a simple upgrade as they (HTC) have Sense to deal with."

    Now I'm not saying the jump from 2.1 to 2.2 is the same equivalent but I think one big thing to remember is that when you have a custom UI it does cause complications in the upgrading road map. Throw in the fact that they have 4 versions of the phone all with different features and operating on different frequencies, there is a lot they have to contend with.

    This doesn't excuse them from the fact that it's taken this long but I think it definitely should cause you to look at the situation a little differently.
    01-19-2011 12:54 PM
  18. rahlquist's Avatar
    I have to agree that the wait can be frustrating, especially when there are applications that need 2.2 to run. I received an email from Samsung about a month ago talking about how the Media Hub is going to allow all this great entertainment to be displayed on your phone, yet here I still wait with no other communication. I like my phone, and don't see changing it anytime soon, but it would be nice to have it "current" at least. I can't say who is to blame, if there is anyone, becasue as it has been stated above NO ONE is talking about the release other than what it can do. If Samsung and the carriers would just come out and let everyone know SOMETHING, most people would quiet down and relax, but we have nothing to go on.
    PLEASE would someone just talk to us?
    I agree with much of what you say, even Googles own Gmail updates and such at first only worked with Foyo but I believe some were backported. The lack of communication is how a publicly owned companies keep their stock value up. The other thing is this Jacked up sense of what is good customer service. Example when I call AT&T and try to make a change to my account and their systems are down, they dont say that, they say "Our systems are currently updating" another lie they thing will save face.
    01-19-2011 12:54 PM
  19. doz's Avatar
    So you don't care about receiving the updates.
    I don't care because I already have 2.2 via xda, I didn't want to wait for Samsung to figure all this out. But by all means complain, phone manufacturers might change someday and listen more. I would send some of the criticism to Google though, we should be able to get some OS updates independent of the manufacturer.
    01-19-2011 12:56 PM
  20. jeregano's Avatar
    OK. So, I have a Captivate from AT&T. I got it because I wanted an android phone, I wanted to get rid of my iPhone, but my wife didn't. My options were Aria and Captivate when I got it. I got it on release day. Had I waited I guess the Dell Streak also would have been an option. When I got it I was excited to hear it would be soon upgraded to the newest OS.

    I have loved my Captivate. It has been a very good introduction to android for me and I was very excited to have it. Samsung was saying a lot about how the "Galaxy S line was going to be their flagship and get a ton of support". With the release of the Galaxy Tab I was hopeful and considered getting one. I was excited by the quality of my Samsung Galaxy S phone and the perceived quality of the tab.


    It has been months now and here are a few conclusions I have drawn.

    1) For whatever reason, and that reason is really unimportant now, Samsung has NOT stood behind their promise of "top notch" support for the Galaxy S line. This has been a problem for them historically.

    2) The rumor is now, after just a few months on the market, the Samsung Galaxy Tab will be reaching its end of life at the end of February. I am glad I didn't get a Tab (priced out of my range) because you can rest assured that at that time it will also loose all Samsung based support. OS updates will go to the Tab 2 or whatever comes next. That is a short life for a $600 item.

    3) Samsung is interested in getting NEW people to buy NEW Samsung products, support through a two year contract is not in their interest. Carriers are interested in getting you into a new 2 year contract, keeping you in the same phone is not in their interest. They have no reason to push for Samsung to give updates for phones knowing it will cost them money to implement the update. They are impartial to the fact that your phone runs 2.2 or 2.1 or 1.6 as long as it is running on their network.

    4) Samsung does not care about customer satisfaction with the product and service outside of the initial purchase and products functionality. That is that. They are not dedicated to their current devices, they are dedicated to the sale of the next device.

    SO for all of these reasons I have decided that no matter what happens with my Samsung Captivate, whether it gets Froyo or not (I have no faith that the Galaxy S line will ever see an official gingerbread) I will at my earliest available renew date switch to a different manufacture's android device (Right now this is looking to be the Moto Atrix) and never lay hands on a Samsung device again. They do not support or stand behind their products. Burn me once shame on them, burn me twice shame on me.
    01-19-2011 12:59 PM
  21. rahlquist's Avatar
    Now I'm not saying the jump from 2.1 to 2.2 is the same equivalent but I think one big thing to remember is that when you have a custom UI it does cause complications in the upgrading road map. Throw in the fact that they have 4 versions of the phone all with different features and operating on different frequencies, there is a lot they have to contend with.

    This doesn't excuse them from the fact that it's taken this long but I think it definitely should cause you to look at the situation a little differently.
    Sorry gotta call bologna on that one, the TouchWiz interface is easily swapped in and out as shown by many of the custom roms. In addition the code base for gingerbread is running fine on the Nexus S in my wife hand across the room. Nearly identical hardware.

    Also compiling from source doesn't care about what hardware you're on as long as the compiler supports it. This is why linux so easily runs on so many platforms. From googles Froyo source there should only be at most a month to customize the source for fragmented or device specific hardware.
    01-19-2011 12:59 PM
  22. hybrid85's Avatar
    I got my wife the Epic when it came out. She really likes it and doesnt have any complaints but she will ask every now and then when that update is coming out that she can use flash on her phone. I've been telling her it will probably come out in a month or so since we got the phone. I'm truly amazed that it is now January 2011 and the US galaxy S phone's still dont have android 2.2.

    I remember when we were looking at the evo and the epic, I decided to get her the epic because I thought it was a cooler phone all around, and was sure it would get 2.2 rather shortly after it was anounced in may, just like the evo got 2.2 shortly after it was annouced. There was a slight concern in my mind about Samsung and their sanfu with the Behold II, yet I figured that was in the past, surely Samsung would be all over making sure their new flagship phone is getting the most recent updates. I mean, at the time, the galaxy S was a great competitor and still is to the iPhone. I figured surely samsung would want to support it to compete not only with other android manufactures but also other smart phone manufactures, ala Apple.

    My contract is up in March and I'll be picking up an android phone on sprint when it is. Though based on what I've seen from samsung with the galaxy S, I'm not sure I want to pic up the epic or any other phone samsung has available on sprint. I love pretty much everything about the epic. I like the slide out keyboard, the screen, the hardware. I just cant believe it still doesn't have 2.2. Compound this confusion by the release of the nexus S, that is based on the galaxy S phone, running 2.3 and it's enough to make you crazy.

    I thought there were a few other manufactures that poorly supported updating their phones, I'm looking at you Sony and Dell, yet I would have to say, Samsung clearly takes the prize in this. The hardware in the galaxy S is amazing, yet with out any OS update support, what's the point?

    Final Thoughts: Damn you Samsung.
    01-19-2011 01:03 PM
  23. psikofunkster's Avatar
    Who waits for official updates? Root baby Root!!

    In all seriousness, I think as long as they say they are updating we should just sit back and wait. We don't ask team ****** for eta's, why should carriers be any different.
    Who waits for official updates? many users!!

    I don't like running "exploits" on my phone in order to root them, i don't know what im installing!

    Samsung Mexico said 6 months of waiting for froyo (starting january 2011) FGS! Its very annoying.
    01-19-2011 01:06 PM
  24. tony bag o donuts's Avatar
    My fridge is a Samsung and that works...even plays she'll be coming around the mountain when the door is left open...
    just saying......
    01-19-2011 01:08 PM
  25. briaking's Avatar
    You are all correct. It is the Carriers fault, it is Samsungs Fault, its even our fault that 2.2 Froyo is not a fulling working OS on the US SGS line right now. The International SGS was just updated to 2.2.1 in December, and here we are speculating on what is and is not being done to upgrade the SGS Android OS.

    I am one of the many that has learned to use Odin and has bravely upgraded to the unofficial roms (KA6) that have been floated on the forums. They work great. The benchmark scores are no where near the other 2.2 smartphones are so I would venture to say that there are some small bugs still causing issues (*cough*cough RFS).
    01-19-2011 01:10 PM
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