Human Rights (I know not a fun topic)

[dlalonde]

So I just stumbled upon this article: French NGOs sue Samsung over alleged child labour in China - Asia-Pacific - RFI

Now we know a lot of the stuff made in China isn't made with the utmost respect for human rights (to say the least). But in a smart phone world we kind of have to choose the lesser evil.

I honestly thought Samsung had cleaned up its act but apparently not. Apple is known for that as well.

So, to you knowledge, which company has the best track record in that? And does that influence your choice of phone?

 

[eshropshire]

So I just stumbled upon this article: French NGOs sue Samsung over alleged child labour in China - Asia-Pacific - RFI

Now we know a lot of the stuff made in China isn't made with the utmost respect for human rights (to say the least). But in a smart phone world we kind of have to choose the lesser evil.

I honestly thought Samsung had cleaned up its act but apparently not. Apple is known for that as well.

So, to you knowledge, which company has the best track record in that? And does that influence your choice of phone?

When has Apple ever been accused of Child labor violations? I know Samsung was accused a few years ago of using lower tier manufacturers in China.

If you want to accuse Apple then include Microsoft, HP and several other companies that use Foxcomm.

 

[chanchan05]

I'm not sure technically that they can be charged if the factory is not theirs since they can feign ignorance and say they just paid the contractor and they have no control on who those guys hire.

 

[Ry]

When has Apple ever been accused of Child labor violations? I know Samsung was accused a few years ago of using lower tier manufacturers in China.

If you want to accuse Apple then include Microsoft, HP and several other companies that use Foxcomm.

https://www.google.com/search?q=apple+child+labor

 

[dlalonde]

When has Apple ever been accused of Child labor violations? I know Samsung was accused a few years ago of using lower tier manufacturers in China.

If you want to accuse Apple then include Microsoft, HP and several other companies that use Foxcomm.

Well the point wasn't to accuse any company in particular nor was it to list all the companies that do it. And as @Ry pointed out, a simple Google search shows credible sources that talk about Apple and child labor. Sorry if that hurts your love of Apple but it's the truth.

I'm not sure technically that they can be charged if the factory is not theirs since they can feign ignorance and say they just paid the contractor and they have no control on who those guys hire.

Yeah but that doesn't make it OK. I'm talking on principle here. If Samsung looks the other way, they're still guilty of it.

When I stumbled upon the article I was quite disgusted at my S8. Of course given I've gotten it on contract I still have to pay it but it's probably the last Samsung device I'm ever getting.

In my (short) research yesterday, I found that only HTC says on their website that they don't use child labor and that never popped out in searches as even being accused. That doesn't mean they don't do it but it's looking good for HTC.

https://www.google.com/search?q=apple+child+labor

Thank you.

 

[eshropshire]

Well the point wasn't to accuse any company in particular nor was it to list all the companies that do it. And as @Ry pointed out, a simple Google search shows credible sources that talk about Apple and child labor. Sorry if that hurts your love of Apple but it's the truth.



Yeah but that doesn't make it OK. I'm talking on principle here. If Samsung looks the other way, they're still guilty of it.

When I stumbled upon the article I was quite disgusted at my S8. Of course given I've gotten it on contract I still have to pay it but it's probably the last Samsung device I'm ever getting.

In my (short) research yesterday, I found that only HTC says on their website that they don't use child labor and that never popped out in searches as even being accused. That doesn't mean they don't do it but it's looking good for HTC.



Thank you.

No I have no love for Apple and have no Apple products. I am in the tech industry (30 years). I am senior enough in the field and work with many companies. Also know enough about poor journalists who are more interested in headlines than real news. Sure Apple like all tech companies make mistakes. What is sad is that people get on Apple and ignore the fact that Microsoft, HP and many other companies use the same manufacturers.

Samsung on the other hand has been caught several times using manufacturers with very bad reputations. Seldom do these stories make major news.

 

[L0n3N1nja]

Raw materials and rare metals often come from mines in 3rd world countries where the labor conditions are horrible. It's been known that war torn regions have literally turned villagers into slave labor and in many places children work.

It's a sad truth but the electronics industry is built on near slave labor conditions, to make matters worse most corporations don't care and put profits first.

Would I like it to change, yes I would.

Will I refuse to buy products over what just about every corporation is responsible for, no I won't.

 

[Mooncatt]

We need to keep things in perspective. To most of us, the idea of "sweatshops" sound horrid, and they may well be. Especially when you think about safety standards and such. On the flip side, look at it from the workers' point of view.

One of the books I read recently talked a bit about this, and this opinion article expands on it. https://www.forbes.com/sites/realsp...-the-lives-of-their-workers-and-boost-growth/

These workers are not slaves in sense that they are being forced in to it. For as bad as their conditions are relative to most of us, these are many times the better options for these workers. They willingly choose to work those factories, and many times are paid well compared to their other options. If those factories closed (as can very well happen if firms pull out to save face or stricter standards/wages are pushed on them), those workers are likely to face even worse alternatives.

I'm not saying any of you should choose to deal with a manufacturer or not based on their foreign practices, just playing a little devil's advocate because the issue is always presented so one sided. If factories continue to pull out, then the workers will suffer more. If conditions are arbitrarily forced to improved through increased regulations, then the workers will still likely suffer through reduced wages. The third option is we pay a lot higher prices for these products to cover the added costs of increased working conditions and wages.

And if we go with that third option, that still may not work out well. For example, the U.S. has a long history of being a premier manufacturer before so much was offshored to avoid growing regulatory costs and to find cheaper labor. If we have to pay almost the same price for something from China as we do for something made in the USA, most people here are likely to opt for the U.S. made product. Manufacturing would start to leave those countries to move here, thus still leaving those workers in worse conditions than they are now.

 

[dlalonde]

No I have no love for Apple and have no Apple products. I am in the tech industry (30 years). I am senior enough in the field and work with many companies. Also know enough about poor journalists who are more interested in headlines than real news. Sure Apple like all tech companies make mistakes. What is sad is that people get on Apple and ignore the fact that Microsoft, HP and many other companies use the same manufacturers.

Samsung on the other hand has been caught several times using manufacturers with very bad reputations. Seldom do these stories make major news.

OK sorry about that. I got the impression you were defending Apple. But you're right to say that a lot of them aren't making headlines. I've done a small amount of research before starting this thread and some are hard to find especially those who uses the likes of Foxconn because you don't necessarily know who it is.

Raw materials and rare metals often come from mines in 3rd world countries where the labor conditions are horrible. It's been known that war torn regions have literally turned villagers into slave labor and in many places children work.

It's a sad truth but the electronics industry is built on near slave labor conditions, to make matters worse most corporations don't care and put profits first.

Would I like it to change, yes I would.

Will I refuse to buy products over what just about every corporation is responsible for, no I won't.

Unless you're really wealthy, in your every day life, it's almost impossible to buy 100% ethical products. It's a sad fact. But what I try to do is always to choose the less unethical when possible. For instance, child labor and unheathly and dangerous workplaces is usually where I draw a line. That's why this troubled me more than ordinary cheap labor. I was also troubled with the likes of Foxconn.

But change entails a shift in our own expectations which is probably something companies think about when they decide who will make our products. For example, if the S9 was sold at $800 but it wasn't waterproof, didn't have wireless charging but was more ethical. Would people still buy it? That's definitely not certain. Changing doesn't just come from companies from from the people who buy as well. It's a perculiar and hard to obtain balance.

Raw materials and rare metals often come from mines in 3rd world countries where the labor conditions are horrible. It's been known that war torn regions have literally turned villagers into slave labor and in many places children work.

It's a sad truth but the electronics industry is built on near slave labor conditions, to make matters worse most corporations don't care and put profits first.

Would I like it to change, yes I would.

Will I refuse to buy products over what just about every corporation is responsible for, no I won't.

We need to keep things in perspective. To most of us, the idea of "sweatshops" sound horrid, and they may well be. Especially when you think about safety standards and such. On the flip side, look at it from the workers' point of view.

One of the books I read recently talked a bit about this, and this opinion article expands on it. https://www.forbes.com/sites/realsp...-the-lives-of-their-workers-and-boost-growth/

These workers are not slaves in sense that they are being forced in to it. For as bad as their conditions are relative to most of us, these are many times the better options for these workers. They willingly choose to work those factories, and many times are paid well compared to their other options. If those factories closed (as can very well happen if firms pull out to save face or stricter standards/wages are pushed on them), those workers are likely to face even worse alternatives.

I'm not saying any of you should choose to deal with a manufacturer or not based on their foreign practices, just playing a little devil's advocate because the issue is always presented so one sided. If factories continue to pull out, then the workers will suffer more. If conditions are arbitrarily forced to improved through increased regulations, then the workers will still likely suffer through reduced wages. The third option is we pay a lot higher prices for these products to cover the added costs of increased working conditions and wages.

And if we go with that third option, that still may not work out well. For example, the U.S. has a long history of being a premier manufacturer before so much was offshored to avoid growing regulatory costs and to find cheaper labor. If we have to pay almost the same price for something from China as we do for something made in the USA, most people here are likely to opt for the U.S. made product. Manufacturing would start to leave those countries to move here, thus still leaving those workers in worse conditions than they are now.

I have heard this before as well. Their point of view in their context is actually very interesting. Also if you look at China they're becoming a major economical power which actually makes the future of the workers look brighter when it comes to dealing with internation companies (China will still be China of course). But it's not all black and white indeed. I just want to try to do the best I can as I'm sure anyone who is aware of this situation would.

My main problem in that respect is child labor. I get that sometimes it is their best shot at making a living. But I have a very hard time with the tought of children working. That and when the work place is detrimental to the worker's health in that they end up dying earlier or very ill. A human life is a human life and definitely not worth a smartphone. Not paying good wages and working ridiculous hours in a day is one thing. But if the product I use causes children to lose their childhood and people to die, then I have a problem with that and that's what I'm trying to change, for me anyway.

 

[Coraya]

I don't know a ton about what goes on overseas but I did watch a documentary on what we call "sweatshops" in China. From what it shared, it's all about perspective. what we see as wrong, they see as building character. A woman who worked in a factory explained that she enjoyed it because she was learning something new. she would leave after a couple of years and find a job elsewhere producing some other type of consumer product. Again, she "said" it was about the experience and becoming as knowledgeable and as skilled as possible.

Now, not all documentaries are factual so take this with a grain of salt. But as far as perspective goes, I can see it being true. Here in the states we're so caught up in our ways that if the whole world doesn't follow our rules or share the same cultural qualities (be it religion, social economics etc...) they are wrong and need to change for OUR sake.

I feel like I have to have a disclaimer before someone loses their marbles.

DISCLAIMER: I don't in any way condone the use of slave labor in which some major companies have been accused. My comment was soley used to convey the perspective of one person in a certain region of the world...

Don't lose your marbles.

 

[dlalonde]

I don't know a ton about what goes on overseas but I did watch a documentary on what we call "sweatshops" in China. From what it shared, it's all about perspective. what we see as wrong, they see as building character. A woman who worked in a factory explained that she enjoyed it because she was learning something new. she would leave after a couple of years and find a job elsewhere producing some other type of consumer product. Again, she "said" it was about the experience and becoming as knowledgeable and as skilled as possible.

Now, not all documentaries are factual so take this with a grain of salt. But as far as perspective goes, I can see it being true. Here in the states we're so caught up in our ways that if the whole world doesn't follow our rules or share the same cultural qualities (be it religion, social economics etc...) they are wrong and need to change for OUR sake.

I feel like I have to have a disclaimer before someone loses their marbles.

DISCLAIMER: I don't in any way condone the use of slave labor in which some major companies have been accused. My comment was soley used to convey the perspective of one person in a certain region of the world...

Don't lose your marbles.

I completely understand what you're saying. I've heard this a lot actually. For some people it's the only way they can make a living. My thing with sweatshops though is that it's not because it's ok in the eyes of the workers that it's justified though. If for instance Wal-Mart, which uses sweatshops, offered 8 hours a day at US minimum wages, no one in China would refuse. But then again Wal-Mart wouldn't go to China but stay in the US and the chinese wouldn't have those jobs. It's a very complex moral situation.

My main problem remains child labor though. I mean in your example that was a woman talking not an 11 year old girl. But then again, maybe some families rely on child labor to subsist. I don't know.

Another issue is that, given it's China, we'll never know the true story.

 

[Mooncatt]

My main problem remains child labor though. I mean in your example that was a woman talking not an 11 year old girl. But then again, maybe some families rely on child labor to subsist. I don't know.

Child labor is still somewhat common even in the U.S. Just look at any family run farm. Before the advent of modern agriculture, it was common for the young kids to help out and it still happens today. In other countries, it is probably more of a necessity to make ends meet. If we take it as such, do we want them working in a factory, or something worse like child prostitution? I know that's a touchy subject, but I kind of have to be blunt to make my point. It has happened where a factory was shut down for one reason or another, and the kids working there moved into such "services."

 

[Maljunulo]

So, to you knowledge, which company has the best track record in that? And does that influence your choice of phone?

I have no idea, and no.