Forced apps and privacy concerns over android, htc, sprint evo 4g

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NewsFocus

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Let me open by first saying that I think the Evo 4G is the coolest damn piece of hardware that I have seen come along in years. It is literally a palm sized computer that actually, in many cases, does far more than your off the shelf computer. With that said, I have major reservations for which I have been compelled to file Federal complaints with the FCC and the FTC. Please let me explain why.

As someone who has been computing / programming since 1983, I have witnessed, along with a great portion of you, the proliferation of 2nd and 3rd party apps that come preinstalled on PCs and laptops as part of manufacturer and software vendor agreements. This has never been welcome by true programmers, especially so in the world of Microsoft Windows, where the registry becomes inundated with crap residual code that lurks around, even after uninstalling. Programmers would like a clean slate to begin with, as opposed to a system already fettered with unwanted code, that in many cases causes conflicts.

This unwanted intrusion of brokered software deals has now moved its way into smart phones. The big difference between the two technologies is, on your PC and laptop you can uninstall any undesired app you like, but on the new Android phones we are forced to accept apps that we do not want, a great many of which are system resource hogs, or worse yet, privacy infringing spyware.

Ask yourself why Android (Google), HTC or Sprint made the calculated decision to create a distinction between apps that you can uninstall and those that you cannot. It is clearly understandable with the operating software, but for apps like Nascar, Peep. Teeter, Stocks, etc, it is truly mind boggling that they will not allow them to be uninstalled.

The absolute gall and temerity.

We own this hardware. We supported them by buying their product, creating enormous profits for them, but as the end-user consumer our rights to our legally purchased hardware are ignored.

And don?t just say, ?well take the phone back.? That would be a lame excuse in consideration of the fact that there truly is no reason why you, your mom, dad, brother, or best friend should be treated this way when it is entirely technologically possible to simply allow removal of the apps. There is no tenable argument or justification for forcing us to keep them when we don?t want them. Period.

Arguably, for many, ?Footprints? is the most egregious piece of software on the Android phones. It is essentially tracking software, possibly part of the Patriot Act, so that you can be tracked, your footprint usage of the phone can be documented and traced. Even if you shut GPS off on your phone, you can be tracked. A very savvy electronics engineer and experienced Sprint tech has told me that.

Why do you possibly need a GPS coordinate, the exact physical longitude and latitude, down to 30 feet, to know where you took a picture from? I'm pretty good at remembering where I've taken pictures at. You probably are as well.

The only answer they can offer at Sprint, HTC and Google is the feeble excuse, "well, it's a handy feature if you're a real estate agent."

Ha!

I pointed out the infinitesimally diminutive number of real estate agents versus their entire customer base, plus the fact that real estate people are in the business of knowing the address of the house they're at. They don't need to be GPS'd while taking a picture, making a call, or sending email from a property.

I filed two Federal complaints with the FTC and the FCC. I was called by a Sprint executive who was willing to do whatever it took to get me to drop my complaints. Rather than offer a free solution, I was told that I could buy ?Root Explorer.? (Actually a decent program for a very nominal price.) The issue is though, to use the software, I still have to root my phone, something which a great many of you know can be an arduous and touchy process, especially so if you?re not a capable computer tech. You risk ?bricking? your phone, should you make the slightest mistake.

And don?t say that you can simply go into the settings and apps and ?force stop? the software. Under the original Android software you could do this, however, upon checking, data was still being collected by Footprints and Facebook. Some will argue, but that data doesn?t go anywhere, especially if you are not a subscriber to Facebook. Well, how do any of us know that for sure? Why still collect data if indeed the app has been shut off? It?s an easy code to write that says, when this app is killed, all data-mining efforts stop as well, but they do not appear to do so.

Ever look and see all the access these apps have to your sensitive data? Much has nothing to do with the operation of the app, so you have to ask yourself why this intrusion is allowed.

It has now become much worse. It seems the new Froyo 2.2 update, not only screws your phone up, but now also restricts you from turning off the nefarious "Footprints" GPS tracking software, as well as Facebook data-mining software (already proven to be CIA linked). You can turn off GPS and it still doesn't matter.

I turn Facebook off, yet it still gathers data. How can I be assured it does not still send that data out? If I turn the app off, that should clearly kill the data-mining feature. Simple as that and very easy to code it that way. No need to still collect data if the app is turned off.

I have to add, they do still have the button that "makes you think" you are turning off the offending apps, however, when you go back into the phone, they are automatically turned back on now.

Again, you have to ask yourself? WHY?

They refuse to allow you to turn them off, or uninstall the apps. Now, ask yourself why this is good for any of us.

You OWN your phone, just like you own your computer. You have the RIGHT to take off any apps that you do not like. Period.

So why won't Google allow people to take off Footprints, or Facebook, etc?

It has been rumored that footprints logs more than just photo ops... supposedly any phone usage can be gleaned from the Footprints app... so I am told.

IF it is truly an innocuous app, and not a tool for "big brother" then why not simply let us remove it if we want to? That is a very simple request.

As a result, I have now had to file my 2nd complaint with both the FCC and the FTC over my Evo 4G phone.

I called Google headquarters in Mountainview, CA and informed them of my filed complaints with the FCC and the FTC. They refused to let me speak with anyone regarding Footprints or the data-mining Facebook app. Is that seriously the kind of company you would like to do business with? They refused to speak to me regarding the issue. That clearly shows no care for the consumer whatsoever.

There is a class action lawsuit brewing against big bucks Google over this. They have clearly made a distinction over apps that can be deleted and apps that cannot be deleted.

Once again, they do not own my phone. I own it. You own yours. We have the right to delete any apps that we choose, but Android (Google), HTC and Sprint have restricted that right from all of us.

I shouldn't have to go through the extremely cumbersome procedure of rooting my phone and possibly "bricking" it if I mess up, just to rid my phone of unwanted apps.

I love my Evo 4G, except for this one huge flaw.

The ACLU will also no doubt be a part of this action as it is clearly a violation of privacy rights.

As a paying supporter of Sprint, HTC, Android (Google)? we have the RIGHT to expect more from the companies we supported and made profitable. As the old saying goes, ?the squeaky wheel gets the grease,? so please get involved.

Make some calls to the following and tell them to honor us, the end-user that gave them our hard earned money. The device belongs to us now, not them.

Please call and voice your opinion.

Sprint? 888-211-4727
HTC? 866-449-8358
Google? 650-253-0000

Thank you for reading and for any efforts that you can put forth in pressuring these companies to conduct business in a professional manner which respects the wishes (and privacy concerns) of its consumers.
 

Trust

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I agree with you that we should be able to choose what apps we keep and what apps we remove but take into consideration:

1. We did not purchase the phone at retail price. We came to an agreement with Sprint that if we stayed with them for 2 years they would split the cost of the phone with us. So technically, the phone is not ours until the contract is up or we pay ETFs.

2. A lot of us have rooted and removed these unwanted apps already. It's faster and easier to do this right here and now rather than wait for a lawsuit to settle 3-5 years from now when it doesn't matter anymore.

3. Your phone also have E911 GPS capability. Is that considered a violation of privacy in your opinion as well?
 
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dwhitman

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You're aware that Sprint knows where your phone is (albeit with somewhat less resolution) just by seeing what towers you're currently interacting with? And has for as long as cellphones have existed?

I consider myself a (minor) privacy nut, but I think you're blowing the significance of pre-loaded software waaaay out of proportion. Do you really think that Sprint/HTC/Google/Facebook/etc care all that much about tracking your every movement (you personally, as opposed to generic trends)? You're not that important. (And neither am I, or anyone else reading this thread).

Turn off your GPS if you're worried. Or root your phone and delete the stuff you don't trust.
 

Trust

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You're aware that Sprint knows where your phone is (albeit with somewhat less resolution) just by seeing what towers you're currently interacting with? And has for as long as cellphones have existed?

I consider myself a (minor) privacy nut, but I think you're blowing the significance of pre-loaded software waaaay out of proportion. Do you really think that Sprint/HTC/Google/Facebook/etc care all that much about tracking your every movement (you personally, as opposed to generic trends)? You're not that important. (And neither am I, or anyone else reading this thread).

Turn off your GPS if you're worried. Or root your phone and delete the stuff you don't trust.

/Tinfoil hat:ON
 

thekarens

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Eye rolling. If you don't want bloatware, etc you need to flash a rom (which isn't hard at all) or buy a Nexus One. All other phones from every carrier and OS has bloatware on it. Speaking about US only.
 

Caitlyn McKenzie

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This unwanted intrusion of brokered software deals has now moved its way into smart phones. The big difference between the two technologies is, on your PC and laptop you can uninstall any undesired app you like, but on the new Android phones we are forced to accept apps that we do not want, a great many of which are system resource hogs, or worse yet, privacy infringing spyware.

No such privacy infringing spyware exists on these phones.

Ask yourself why Android (Google), HTC or Sprint made the calculated decision to create a distinction between apps that you can uninstall and those that you cannot. It is clearly understandable with the operating software, but for apps like Nascar, Peep. Teeter, Stocks, etc, it is truly mind boggling that they will not allow them to be uninstalled.

The absolute gall and temerity.

Heaven forbid there's a bit of crap. Besides, Google really doesn't force anyone to have anything on the Android OS. It's all HTC or, the really bad offenders, the service providers like Sprint.

We own this hardware. We supported them by buying their product, creating enormous profits for them, but as the end-user consumer our rights to our legally purchased hardware are ignored.

And don?t just say, ?well take the phone back.? That would be a lame excuse in consideration of the fact that there truly is no reason why you, your mom, dad, brother, or best friend should be treated this way when it is entirely technologically possible to simply allow removal of the apps. There is no tenable argument or justification for forcing us to keep them when we don?t want them. Period.

Uhm, that's your opinion.

Arguably, for many, ?Footprints? is the most egregious piece of software on the Android phones. It is essentially tracking software, possibly part of the Patriot Act, so that you can be tracked, your footprint usage of the phone can be documented and traced. Even if you shut GPS off on your phone, you can be tracked. A very savvy electronics engineer and experienced Sprint tech has told me that.

A. Footprints doesn't (and CAN'T) do tracking when it's not running.
B. The only tracking it can do with GPS turned off is cell tower triangulation, which is, at best, accurate to ~1000 meters.
C. You can even turn that off if you're that paranoid.

Why do you possibly need a GPS coordinate, the exact physical longitude and latitude, down to 30 feet, to know where you took a picture from? I'm pretty good at remembering where I've taken pictures at. You probably are as well.

It's an option. Turn it off if you don't like it. Apple originally coined the idea, for people who like to see where they took pictures at exactly, like on trails. Not to mention, it helps sorting lots of photos incredibly easy, as you can do impressive things like search for photos from a certain location.

The only answer they can offer at Sprint, HTC and Google is the feeble excuse, "well, it's a handy feature if you're a real estate agent."

Ha!

That's like the last possible reason ever for using that functionality, as described above by me.

I filed two Federal complaints with the FTC and the FCC. I was called by a Sprint executive who was willing to do whatever it took to get me to drop my complaints. Rather than offer a free solution, I was told that I could buy ?Root Explorer.? (Actually a decent program for a very nominal price.) The issue is though, to use the software, I still have to root my phone, something which a great many of you know can be an arduous and touchy process, especially so if you?re not a capable computer tech. You risk ?bricking? your phone, should you make the slightest mistake.

So don't buy a phone with the crap you don't want. There are Android phones without it. This is exactly like the PC market. If you don't want a PC with crap on it, don't buy HP/Dell/etc.

And don?t say that you can simply go into the settings and apps and ?force stop? the software. Under the original Android software you could do this, however, upon checking, data was still being collected by Footprints and Facebook. Some will argue, but that data doesn?t go anywhere, especially if you are not a subscriber to Facebook. Well, how do any of us know that for sure? Why still collect data if indeed the app has been shut off? It?s an easy code to write that says, when this app is killed, all data-mining efforts stop as well, but they do not appear to do so.

What checking? It sure as hell isn't doing anything for me. In fact, Footprints hasn't done a single thing cause I've never used it.

Ever look and see all the access these apps have to your sensitive data? Much has nothing to do with the operation of the app, so you have to ask yourself why this intrusion is allowed.

Like what?

It has now become much worse. It seems the new Froyo 2.2 update, not only screws your phone up, but now also restricts you from turning off the nefarious "Footprints" GPS tracking software, as well as Facebook data-mining software (already proven to be CIA linked). You can turn off GPS and it still doesn't matter.

Facebook is not data mining (nor is it capable), and you're stating it's "CIA linked" proven without any proof, thus, it's not. Tinfoil!

I turn Facebook off, yet it still gathers data. How can I be assured it does not still send that data out? If I turn the app off, that should clearly kill the data-mining feature. Simple as that and very easy to code it that way. No need to still collect data if the app is turned off.

Just because it shows up as "in the background" doesn't mean it's running. In fact, by design of Android, it likely isn't.

I have to add, they do still have the button that "makes you think" you are turning off the offending apps, however, when you go back into the phone, they are automatically turned back on now.

What button are you referring to? All I can see here is one unresearched and uninformed statement after another. It's all tinfoil, but worse off, it's poorly written tinfoil. Tinfoil statements should at least be made to seem plausible.

You OWN your phone, just like you own your computer. You have the RIGHT to take off any apps that you do not like. Period.

So why won't Google allow people to take off Footprints, or Facebook, etc?

Things like this are perfect examples. Google isn't forcing anyone to do, or not do anything.

It has been rumored that footprints logs more than just photo ops... supposedly any phone usage can be gleaned from the Footprints app... so I am told.

It's been rumored that aliens are reading our minds using microwaves. Completely false if you actually bothered to look for such logs.

IF it is truly an innocuous app, and not a tool for "big brother" then why not simply let us remove it if we want to? That is a very simple request.

Possibly because it's not just an app but part of HTC's Sense UI and thus would cause errors if simply deleted? Oh wait, I guess that makes too much sense.

As a result, I have now had to file my 2nd complaint with both the FCC and the FTC over my Evo 4G phone.

Glad to see someone overreacting without even bothering to do the legwork first. I'm sure the FTC/FCC will be happy to waste time and resources on your complaints.

I called Google headquarters in Mountainview, CA and informed them of my filed complaints with the FCC and the FTC. They refused to let me speak with anyone regarding Footprints or the data-mining Facebook app. Is that seriously the kind of company you would like to do business with? They refused to speak to me regarding the issue. That clearly shows no care for the consumer whatsoever.

Amazing, they wouldn't allow you to talk to anyone regarding the apps that they didn't write or have control over? Why I never!

There is a class action lawsuit brewing against big bucks Google over this. They have clearly made a distinction over apps that can be deleted and apps that cannot be deleted.

No there isn't. Sure, you could sue, but then again, I could sue you for being silly. Would I succeed? No, the judge would likely throw it out before it even saw a courtroom. Same with your tinfoil.

Once again, they do not own my phone. I own it. You own yours. We have the right to delete any apps that we choose, but Android (Google), HTC and Sprint have restricted that right from all of us.

You own the hardware, you license the software. You're free to do whatever you want with that hardware, but they are never, ever required to make it easy, software-wise, to do so. Thus, the rooting bit.

The ACLU will also no doubt be a part of this action as it is clearly a violation of privacy rights.

Seeing as what you've said has been around for over a year now, no, they won't.

As a paying supporter of Sprint, HTC, Android (Google)? we have the RIGHT to expect more from the companies we supported and made profitable. As the old saying goes, ?the squeaky wheel gets the grease,? so please get involved.

I don't recall seeing any such right in our constitution.


All in all, this is the most tinfoil, incorrect, uninformed post I've seen here in a while. It was a hilarious read, and an even more hilarious post to pick apart.
 

mcdonoughab

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Using a conspiracy theory link (Facebook + CIA) as one of your arguments severely undercuts your credibility.

Sent from my HTC Evo using Tapatalk
 

project.in.process

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i agree--
THAT apps should be allowed to be uninstalled
THAT apps should be allowed to be Permenantly Stopped
THAT bloatware sucks
THAT the phone does have the capability to be tracked (911 was a good example)
THAT rooting is an obvious solution

and therefore,
i root.

problem solved.


if this were to actually gain media attention and have a chance at being brought to a national forum, then i'd consider joining the 'fight'.
but at the moment, Root is good enough.
-documentation of a CIA link to the phone/facebook would be helpful.
 

eldub1

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Wow! Come on. The OP makes a lot of valid points. The response that we give a fellow Evo lover that he's a radical conspirasist is just unbelievable. No I have not witnessed any Elvis sightings.
 

Caitlyn McKenzie

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The funny thing is things are far worse than this fellow is ranting about even knows.... This is a legit story, do more research if you want to know more:

US Court OK's warrantless government cellphone tracking
Justice Dept. defends warrantless cell phone tracking | Politics and Law - CNET News

Oh no, in a criminal investigation, they're allowed to do the same thing they've been doing with land lines for DECADES. And keep in mind, just because it's warrantless, doesn't mean it's completely without any reason. They do have to have a criminal investigation in progress to even file a request for such information.

Besides, this has nothing to do with what the OP posted at all. They're not even using GPS information (Which would be nearly impossible to get, as (aGPS not withstanding) GPS tracking is done on the phone only).
 

NewsFocus

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Totally missed the point...

I have no desire to debate with those who have little insight nor the intellectual capability to reason for themselves without being spoon-fed from the media and Faux News.

I made a rational case for ownership of my/our phone(s) and that in no situation do we have to accept software that cannot be uninstalled. Plain and simple and most irrefutable.

A great many of you entirely missed the point, but by the feeble attempts at rebuttal, I am not at all surprised.

Only one person attempted a rational ?discussion? of the topic and that was ?Truth.? I will disagree with two of those points though. First off, cost has nothing to do with the points raised. Full price, as some do pay, or half price, cost has nothing to do with accepting an invasion of privacy or the prevention of ?easily? uninstalling unwanted apps. Second, while a great many of us are capable of rooting our phone, the greater majority of users are not. More would end up ?bricking? their phone. I do thank you for the discussion though, as opposed to the rancor and vitriol of others.

The initial missed point was why are some apps able to be uninstalled easily, but others aren?t. No one has given a reasonable answer for that.

The fact that this situation exists merely proves that they (Sprint, HTC, Android) do not want some apps uninstalled. Why?

If they have collected their fee from the software vendor to put it on the phone, then they have fulfilled their part of the bargain, just as PC manufacturers do. If we take the software off, that is our prerogative and our right. To restrict us from removing such apps without an extremely arduous process is simply bad business and ought to raise a ?Spock eyebrow? for some as to why this environment exists at all. NASCAR is obvious, because Sprint is a huge funder of the sport, but ?Footprints? and ?Facebook? make not just me wonder, but many others as well.

Per the E911 comment? it simply has the capability to be misused. If I need help, I can call.

Maybe most have missed the news that our phone and cell records have been turned over to various alphabet agencies which is a violation of our right to privacy. The Bush administration was most happy to encourage this. Some of you obviously think that?s a great thing in a free country.

Another missed point? it is not that I or you are important to be tracked. Our government ?of the people, by the people and for the people? has no right to track any of us. Period.

We are not terrorists, yet we are being treated as such under the Patriot Act and the Military Commissions Act. Very few of you, much like our recalcitrant Congress, have ever bothered to read either of these heinous pieces of legislation. So please don?t speak about invasion of privacy concerns until you are better educated in the real world that evolved while many of you were watching ?American Idol? and ?Dancing With The Stars.?

To those who responded with the intellectually deficient response ?tinfoil hat,? kudos to you for offering an illiterate response to the valid points raised. You merely highlighted your poor manners and/or ignorance.

And to Mr. Law, you write a lot, but dispute little. You have clearly not examined the info available to many of the apps on this phone. You glossed right over that points with no refutation of fact.

As to who is guilty for this bloatware, that isn?t really the issue is it? It is the fact that it DOES exist and should not be on my phone, nor yours.

And yes I have done much investigation and spoke with numerous representatives from Sprint, HTC and Google. They ALL duck and cover and point the finger at the other. So clearly one, two or all of them are lying. At least I took the time to call and ask who was guilty. The interesting thing is, no one denied to me that the apps were data-mining our phones.

To ignorantly claim ?that is your opinion? was a hoot. The points were, (1) we own the phone and (2) to repeat myself, it is entirely technologically possible to simply allow removal of the apps. There is no tenable argument or justification for forcing us to keep them when we don?t want them. Period. That is fact, not opinion. Sorry you miss the distinction.

Mr. Law, you missed another huge point, ?Footprints? cannot be turned off. Get your facts straight and look into your phone before you make unsubstantiated and highly disingenuous claims.

If you need GPS to help you sort your pictures, well, that?s your issue. Glad you finally have a way in the computer era of being able to sort your pictures. <sigh>

Per your ignorance (and Mcdonoughab) regarding Facebook and the CIA, please read the following before shooting your mouth off again?

Facebook steps up lobbying, deepens ties with intelligence agencies, FTC | VentureBeat

And if you haven?t heard about the relationship between Google and the alphabet agencies, well, keep watching FOX News. Google is now, arguably, the largest data-mining operation in the world

Your comment about a class action lawsuit is most uninformed, like most of your post. And you spoke to which lawyer over this? Did you speak with mine? Wow, dude, talk about speaking when you don?t know what the hell you?re talking about.

Regarding the right to privacy, yes it is inferred to in the Constitution regarding ?mail.? Since we did not have electronic media at that time, mail was the only possible form of communication that could be covered.

If you seriously want to argue that we have no right to privacy from invasive corporations that we fund as consumers, you sir should feel right at home. Welcome to the new Amerika buddy! You, Rush and Bill O? should feel right at home.

Quit watching TV and start getting your facts straight. I spent 25 years in broadcast media and understand implicitly how information is controlled. We have tragically fallen to a mere SIX corporations that own it all now. That of course means that six CEOs set corporate policy for what is news and what isn?t. It is no wonder you are as naive as you are. You either watch too much TV, or are a junkie of FOX News. (One of my favorite oxymorons) None of us with a media background take FOX seriously, at all.

But I digress. My points stand. We own the phone. They do not allow certain apps to be uninstalled on purpose. We should not have to root our phones, it should be part of the normal OS. There are apps that data-mine our phones and that is indisputably an invasion of our privacy. Look first before you speak so assuredly.

Mr. Law, if it weren?t for some of us who keep tabs on our government and the unscrupulous corporations that control it, you very well might not have the freedom to shoot your mouth off like you do. Lucky for you.

My apologies to others for having to address the forum in this manner. Again, my original post is most valid and was meant to protect us all. It seems many missed the salient points that were raised. That is disconcerting to say the least and quite sad for an open ?forum? for intelligent discussion.

Again, we own the phone. Pretty simple concept to understand.

I will not revisit this forum, considering the narrow minded uninformed trolls who have nothing better to do than character assassinate and name call. I did my best to raise a topic that is germane to those of us using the Evo 4G and Android OS. I will leave it at that and be done with the forum, for, as pointed out, few raised any rational, informed debate. No need to thus waste my time.

It is noteworthy that the moderator helped initiate this, even though offering no valid points of rebuttal. Your job is to moderate the forum. You overstepped your duties. (IMHO)

Best regards to those with the ability to reason on their own and respond in a courteous manner.
 
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