06-14-2018 11:05 AM
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  1. mrdave570's Avatar
    I bought 2 stock batteries from AT&T (my carrier). One of them went bad after a year. It refuses to charge in the phone or in the LG cradle. On Jan 1, I tried to order a new one from LG. They are out of stock. I had to order a new OEM from Ebay. Not sure what else to do. LG should be carrying them. WTF?
    01-02-2018 11:57 AM
  2. mwake4goten's Avatar
    Yeah, the proper way to charge a lithium-chemsitry battery is pretty-simple, but NOBODY does it (including LG).

    It's this:

    1. Charge at up to 1C (that is, if you have a 3,300mah battery, 3.3 Amps) until the cell voltage reaches 4.2V. This is 85% of capacity, approximately. From "empty" this will require about 45 minutes, assuming you can source sufficient current and the battery doesn't get hot.

    2. Hold the charge voltage at 4.2V. Charging current will taper; when it gets to .03 C (e.g. ~100ma) the cell is full. This will require about an additional *two hours*.

    A cell that exhibits more than a roughly ~20F rise in temperature during charging *before* its terminal voltage reaches 4.2V is compromised and should be replaced. The device *should* display a warning if that happens (note that no existing cellphone does from LG or anyone else.)

    If the device is on during charging then you have additional problems determining the actual rate of charge because you must accurately measure the drain of the device and subtract it from the charge current. You must also account for cell heating from the device and charging circuits when monitoring the cell temperature if you are attempting to alert on a defective battery due to high resistance.

    A phone company that actually cared about its customer experience would offer the following settings when it comes to batteries:

    In ALL cases -- any cell below 3V is charged at 0.1C (~300ma) until the voltage reaches 3V. This should NOT happen (such a battery has been "overdischarged") but it can, and the only safe alternative to the low-rate initial charge in this case is to declare such a battery "dead" and refuse to charge it at all.

    1. "Preserve battery life" (default): Charges to 4.2V at all available current levels up to 1C, then shuts off. No saturation charge; if left plugged in will hold voltage at 4.0V, assuming that temperature remains within limits. This will result in a battery charge to 85% very rapidly (assuming it doesn't get hot), but essentially no charge at all beyond that point. If you select this you'll more than *double* battery cycle life over what cell companies do to you now.

    2. "Fully charge consistent with good battery life": Charges to 4.2V at all available current levels to 1C, then holds at 4.2V until the charge current drops to 0.03C and terminates. If left plugged in will re-start when voltage drops to 4.0V. This cycle is a decent compromise, will charge to 85% from effective 0% in an hour but requires ~2-3 hours to reach full charge. This will result in roughly a 50% improvement in battery cycle life over what you experience now.

    3. "Fully charge and hold": Displays a warning about compromising cell life if selected. Charges to 4.3V before tapering. Far more likely to run into heat-limiting during the charge; will charge to 85% in an hour but "finish" in another 20 minutes or so. Holds the cell at 4.2V if left on charge. This is pretty-much the protocol that cell companies use now, and it does fairly severe damage to cells if frequently charged fully (resulting in about a one-year service life instead of 2-3.) This is what you get now.

    If the unit is OFF during charging then #1 is used with the modification that no float current is applied at all, nor will charge restart, until cell voltage drops to under 3.6V.

    LG appears to add a twist to #3 in that it immediately current-limits the charge to about 700ma if the screen is on. This is arguably a good practice as it limits some of the damage that #3 does especially in a car where you have the phone connected to power and are using it for Nav; most phones will immediately run the battery up to 100% under fast-charge in those conditions, limited only by heating, and that's really, really rough on battery life. It also appears LG cuts off the charge short of the 100% level (at about 95%) which is also good. But they could do better if they implemented the above.

    If manufacturers had any interest in actually providing you with all the cell life you bought originally they'd allow you to select #1 and maybe default to #2 . As it stands they all do #3 , some with a few twists. LG is one of the few I've seen that actually tries to mitigate *some* of the damage by limiting charge rate with the screen on and cutting it off a bit early if left plugged in.
    Yes I totally agree there should be selectable charging pattern options.
    01-03-2018 08:02 AM
  3. tickerguy's Avatar
    Sadly the problem is that "how fast does it charge" has become a customer comparison point.....
    01-03-2018 08:52 AM
  4. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Sadly the problem is that "how fast does it charge" has become a customer comparison point.....
    Nothing wrong with that, so long as the battery is designed to handle higher currents and such.
    01-03-2018 09:53 AM
  5. tickerguy's Avatar
    Nothing wrong with that, so long as the battery is designed to handle higher currents and such.
    It's not possible to short-time the saturation charge on a Lithium-chemistry cell without damaging the number of cycles it can sustain. It's a function of the chemistry in the cell and physics; there's nothing you can do about it.
    01-03-2018 10:12 AM
  6. Mooncatt's Avatar
    It's not possible to short-time the saturation charge on a Lithium-chemistry cell without damaging the number of cycles it can sustain. It's a function of the chemistry in the cell and physics; there's nothing you can do about it.
    I wasn't referring to that, but to the initial full current charge stage. The time to charge up to about 75% is where you'll see time savings and safely so.

    Are you saying manufacturers are trying to shorten the saturation stage? If so, then I would agree that's a bad idea and isn't something I've personally seen attempted. Any phone I've had properly throttles back the final stages, and to do otherwise would result in battery problems across board. So until I've seen evidence that manufacturers are doing that, I'm not going to fault them for artificially degrading batteries.
    01-03-2018 07:02 PM
  7. tickerguy's Avatar
    Yes, they are, and yes, they do. Instrument a few devices (I have) and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.
    01-03-2018 11:38 PM
  8. Mooncatt's Avatar
    I don't have a separate tool for checking this, but these are from one of my monitoring apps. You can clearly see, that at least with LG, the saturation phase has the draw down of charging current as expected. (Fyi, the voltage graph scale is over a longer time period, so I could show the voltage increase before saturation.) I suspect I'd see similar results on an external meter, which may still be inaccurate unless charging with the phone off.

    Also of note, the Lipo's LG uses are rated at 3.85 nominal voltage, not the usual 3.7V. I remember reading in one of the Battery University articles that newer technologies/materials have allowed for these slightly higher charge voltages without severely impacting safety or longevity.

    Taking my typical charge and usage into account (I.e. A fair bit of gaming and usually charging to 100%), I can say my overall battery life on any phone is about as good as can be expected. I get over a year of use out of them with charging 40-100% usually 2-3 times a day.
    Attached Thumbnails How's your V20 stock battery holding up?-capture-_2018-01-04-01-30-52.jpg   How's your V20 stock battery holding up?-capture-_2018-01-04-01-31-34.jpg  
    01-04-2018 02:20 AM
  9. tickerguy's Avatar
    Charge voltages beyond 4.2V have a very material impact on battery life, and LG, like every other cellphone company, runs their charger at well beyond 4.2V.

    This is how they (and everyone else) shortens the "absorption" phase -- they drive it harder. The "chemistry changes" people talk about in terms of allegedly higher nominal voltages doesn't translate into "you can run that higher charge voltage during absorption without impacting cell life", however. What it does do is reduce, to some degree, the heating that results during the absorption phase -- but the damage is still taking place.
    01-04-2018 08:18 AM
  10. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Look into the newer graphene style Lipo batteries. These are designed for up to 4.4V charging. The LG battery doesn't mention the chemistry, but I'm speculating that's what's going on with them and other "high voltage" batteries. I do know they are somewhat common in RC hobby Lipos now.
    01-04-2018 03:30 PM
  11. flyingkytez's Avatar
    I bought 2 stock batteries from AT&T (my carrier). One of them went bad after a year. It refuses to charge in the phone or in the LG cradle. On Jan 1, I tried to order a new one from LG. They are out of stock. I had to order a new OEM from Ebay. Not sure what else to do. LG should be carrying them. WTF?
    Amazon is still carrying the original battery kit, 100% authentic. Zero lemon is a reputable company and sells a replacement battery. Manufactures don't support phones after 1 year, so in the future we'd have to rely on 3rd party. I have 5 LG batteries right now and I'm cycling through all of them evenly. Same thing with cars, everyone has to rely on aftermarket parts eventually.
    01-04-2018 03:44 PM
  12. flyingkytez's Avatar
    If you really want your batteries to last long, use a laptop cooling fan to cool the battery when charging. Avoid fast charging unless necessary, also don't let the battery drop below 15%. Disable useless apps, don't use messenger apps, use Greenify to hibernate apps, and use ForceDoze for better standby time. I get a solid 4 hours SOT, sometimes 5.5.
    01-04-2018 03:47 PM
  13. Mooncatt's Avatar
    If you really want your batteries to last long, use a laptop cooling fan to cool the battery when charging. Avoid fast charging unless necessary, also don't let the battery drop below 15%. Disable useless apps, don't use messenger apps, use Greenify to hibernate apps, and use ForceDoze for better standby time. I get a solid 4 hours SOT, sometimes 5.5.
    Geeze, what are you leaving running then? I was able to get better than that without all those steps. Not so much now, since my battery is getting weak. But I was able to get 6 without much trying in the past.
    01-04-2018 04:32 PM
  14. flyingkytez's Avatar
    Geeze, what are you leaving running then? I was able to get better than that without all those steps. Not so much now, since my battery is getting weak. But I was able to get 6 without much trying in the past.
    I have a ton of apps installed. Apps like eBay, Amazon, What's App, Group Me, Yahoo Mail, etc. drains battery by push messages and updates. I don't have Facebook or FB messenger but instead a 3rd party app.
    01-05-2018 12:29 AM
  15. Morty2264's Avatar
    I've heard about this Apple thing. Based off of what I've seen and read on social media, quite a few users aren't happy and even stated they want to jump to Android.

    I too hope LG never does this to their customers... But I did read that LG, HTC, Samsung, and one other company (Motorola?) confirmed that they do not do this type of thing with their phones.
    01-06-2018 10:53 AM
  16. tickerguy's Avatar
    What Apple did is an egregiously evil thing, and consumer fraud on top of it.

    To detect a known bad hardware condition and fail to alert the owner is beyond the pale. To attempt to "mitigate" it without warning where there is a purely financial motive in doing so by avoiding warranty service is even worse. That's a violation of the law in the US at least ("unfair and deceptive practices") both at a state and federal level, but large companies no longer get prosecuted for literally anything they do -- which is probably why Apple thought they could get away with it.

    Remember that Apple has been accused of this for quite some time -- and repeatedly lied, saying they were doing no such thing. It was only when someone went to the trouble to actually prove they were doing it that they came clean. If that's not proof of intent I don't know what would satisfy someone in that regard.
    Morty2264 likes this.
    01-06-2018 11:51 AM
  17. Morty2264's Avatar
    What Apple did is an egregiously evil thing, and consumer fraud on top of it.

    To detect a known bad hardware condition and fail to alert the owner is beyond the pale. To attempt to "mitigate" it without warning where there is a purely financial motive in doing so by avoiding warranty service is even worse. That's a violation of the law in the US at least ("unfair and deceptive practices") both at a state and federal level, but large companies no longer get prosecuted for literally anything they do -- which is probably why Apple thought they could get away with it.

    Remember that Apple has been accused of this for quite some time -- and repeatedly lied, saying they were doing no such thing. It was only when someone went to the trouble to actually prove they were doing it that they came clean. If that's not proof of intent I don't know what would satisfy someone in that regard.
    I too agree that it is a cruel and very immoral and very illegal breach - especially of consumer trust. You pay so much for a device these days - especially an iPhone, even of older iterations - and for Apple to purposely allow your device to perform less efficiently is just malicious.
    01-06-2018 11:59 AM
  18. tickerguy's Avatar
    Oh I don't know if I buy the "force you to buy a new phone" argument, but it's not necessary to make the fraud point stick.

    You only need any financial motive for no-notice slowdowns, and the warranty angle is likely the true motivation (with a side helping of "forced upgrades") since warranty returns are a serious cost center for any company. Reducing them by hiding defects you know about is a clearly malicious act and doing so for financial purposes crosses the fraud line.

    The root of the issue comes down to the collision between how batteries are treated in their charging regimes, the size of the installed cell (thus the likelihood the customer will charge more than once in a day, effectively exposing the cell to TWO cycles daily instead of one) and how these two things collide with what you SELL the consumer in terms of expectations (e.g. "thin and light", "charges fast", etc.) What you sell the customer is always your choice; the 'base demand' from the customer side is always "free, infinite battery life and charges in 5 seconds" in this regard, none of which you can actually do of course. There is always a balance between what the customer would like and what can be reasonably delivered but when you discover you blew it and the result is that you're eating warranty claims due to going too far down the "thin and light" and "charges fast" road, and try to evade the financial hit on the warranty side by hiding it, well.....
    01-06-2018 12:34 PM
  19. mthorn82's Avatar
    I bought my LG V20 about a year ago from T-Mobile first time turned it on was very hot seemed strange and I even recall telling my gf at the time this isn't going to be good for long term use. So fast forward a year later this was my issue and how I fixed it so far.

    Battery started reading hot around 105-115 degrees F either when plugged in charging on a fast charger or when using apps. I would notice battery charge state going nuts on min it would show 50% charged when plugged in then 20%.

    Soon after the phone started acting up making this crackling sound from the speaker, running very slow and I would loose all sound be it external and internal speaker. Apps would run sluggish and a reboot would not work. When rebooting the phone it would take 5 min to start back up, the T-Mobile boot screen sound was not there, and the phone would show the wrong date and time to begin. Strange YOUTUBE would not load videos! It would give me an error. Hard reset and complete wipe nothing phone still acted up. Sometimes letting the phone sit 10-15 min with a battery swap would help but not always.

    Finally I gave in placed the phone one night in the freezer with it powered off when it was acting up about 5 min later I took it out rebooted the phone and instantly it started right up like nothing was wrong so I knew I had a heat issue as it seemed the cold air got it working again.

    So for now the fix seems to be thermal paste on the internal CPU you can get it on amazon and you have to remove the circuit board apply it and then put the phone back together. A new aftermarket battery was next I ordered one on Amazon placed it in the phone charged it up some then ran some tests this is the result.

    New battery and thermal paste on CPU clocking AVG 86-87 degrees max on the battery down from 105-115 on the factory LG battery. CPU is reading 85-95 on standby clocking around 107 degrees max on apps running on games. So far no lag, no locking up, no funny cracking speaker sounds it's running solid. A little slow while charging apparently this is a design from LG to slow the CPU down. Give it a shot spent around $35 total for the battery and thermal paste.

    Cheers.
    06-13-2018 12:29 PM
  20. recDNA's Avatar
    I'm on my 4th battery but I abuse the hell out of them. Constantly charging to 100% to get max screen on time.

    Mine sometimes runs hot even when doing nothing but biggest users are Android sys etc so can't tell ehat app is really reaponsible.
    06-14-2018 11:05 AM
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