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02-25-2018 11:46 PM
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  1. flyingkytez's Avatar
    Tomorrow is going to be the blood moon and many will be trying to take a picture of it. With LG's 16MP camera, you can zoom in and take a cropped photo with some decent detail. With a 12MP camera, you're not gonna get anything, just a blurry image. Any thoughts on this? Seems like people want to defend the 12MP sensors but I don't get why they are using less megapixels nowadays. Even a dual telephoto lens can't help.

    Another good example is if you're in a meeting and trying to take a picture of the white board with notes on it, the photo will be too blurry on a 12MP camera, hence a 16MP camera can capture detail from further distances.

    Why a 16MP camera is better than 12MP-20180130_173913.jpg
    01-30-2018 09:22 PM
  2. Mike Dee's Avatar
    Tomorrow is going to be the blood moon and many will be trying to take a picture of it. With LG's 16MP camera, you can zoom in and take a cropped photo with some decent detail. With a 12MP camera, you're not gonna get anything, just a blurry image. Any thoughts on this? Seems like people want to defend the 12MP sensors but I don't get why they are using less megapixels nowadays. Even a dual telephoto lens can't help.

    Another good example is if you're in a meeting and trying to take a picture of the white board with notes on it, the photo will be too blurry on a 12MP camera, hence a 16MP camera can capture detail from further distances.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20180130_173913.jpg 
Views:	132 
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    It's not just about Megapixels. That's only one factor in the equation. I have a 6 megapixel camera that will beat anything you can take with your 16 megapixel camera because it has a large sensor. LG uses smaller sensors than most other brands. If you cram too many pixels into a small sensor you give up light gathering capabilities. There is a point of diminshing returns. If it was a simple matter of using more megapixels everyone would do it. LG needs to get their act together because they can't even get their software processing right. Which is why you see many happy to be using the Google ported software.
    RaRa85 likes this.
    01-30-2018 10:07 PM
  3. vasekvi's Avatar
    Which is why you see many happy to be using the Google ported software.
    Tell me more about this please
    01-30-2018 10:11 PM
  4. Mike Dee's Avatar
    Tell me more about this please
    You are looking for the software?
    01-30-2018 10:12 PM
  5. Mike Dee's Avatar
    Tell me more about this please
    Try this link

    https://www.xda-developers.com/googl...de-angle-lens/

    There are two files you have to load....one for the normal camera and one for the wide.
    01-30-2018 10:14 PM
  6. vasekvi's Avatar
    Try this link

    https://www.xda-developers.com/googl...de-angle-lens/

    There are two files you have to load....one for the normal camera and one for the wide.
    Awesome. Will the V20 and G6 benefit?
    01-30-2018 10:16 PM
  7. Mike Dee's Avatar
    Awesome. Will the V20 and G6 benefit?
    Yes...it will work with V20...i haven't verified G6 but it should work.

    Here's a more direct link

    https://forum.xda-developers.com/lg-...4#post75364454
    vasekvi likes this.
    01-30-2018 10:18 PM
  8. vasekvi's Avatar
    Yes...it will work with V20...i haven't verified G6 but it should work.

    Here's a more direct link

    https://forum.xda-developers.com/lg-...4#post75364454
    Awesome gonna check this out with all three phones.
    01-30-2018 10:19 PM
  9. Mike Dee's Avatar
    01-30-2018 11:29 PM
  10. Mooncatt's Avatar
    If pixel count were everything, then this camera wouldn't exist.

    https://petapixel.com/2015/09/13/thi...zy-new-camera/

    What's best depends on what you're shooting.
    01-30-2018 11:50 PM
  11. LeoRex's Avatar
    Seems like people want to defend the 12MP sensors but I don't get why they are using less megapixels nowadays.
    You are only looking at raw resolving power... There's more to a picture. There's a delicate dance involved. Phones only have so much room to play with, so increasing the number of pixel sites means those pixels get smaller. And smaller often means longer exposures at higher ISO settings to capture the same amount of light.

    But going with larger pixels means sacrificing resolving power and at one point, quality starts to suffer.

    So why are so many going with 12mp? It gives the best compromise between resolution and light sensitivity and yields the best results across all conditions. As good as the V30 is in bright shots, it's junk in lower light. I have plenty of examples of indoor and night shots of my kids with a V30 that are comically bad... Exposures were too long and required far too much processing to clean up.

    Don't get be wrong, I'd love for them to be able to stuff a 20mp sensor with 2 micron pixels in a phone, but these are phones, not TARDISs..
    Golfdriver97 likes this.
    01-31-2018 01:13 AM
  12. D13H4RD2L1V3's Avatar
    Well, this post is going to be a long one. So sit back, relax and grab a cuppa because you're about to learn something you probably haven't seen before.

    I can understand why one would think a camera with a higher megapixel count would do better than a lower megapixel count. That's because megapixels denote a camera's resolution, with a megapixel being approximately 1 million pixels. It's not hard to know that in theory, a camera with a resolution of 21 million pixels will resolve more detail than a camera with 12 million pixels. It's part of the reason why people seem to think 21MP is undoubtedly better than 12MP.

    However, this is a basic fundamental judgement error people often make. Cameras are not always about one parameter (in this case, resolution or megapixel count). Instead, they're more about multiple factors such as;
    • Lens quality: The quality of the lens denotes how sharp an image could be, especially around corners, and good quality lenses will have less artifacts such as fringing and chromatic aberrations.
    • Sensor size: The actual size of the camera's image sensor.
    • Pixel size: The actual size of each individual photodiode. This relates to MP count and sensor size
    • DSP: Known as a digital signal processor, this is the stuff that makes the automatic wizardry in your camera work.
    • Processing: How a camera processes a RAW file from the sensor into a compressed JPG matters since techniques differ from manufacturer to manufacturer.
    • Aperture f-stop: Denotes how big an aperture is in relation to a camera's focal length. Do note that an aperture of f/1.8 is not universally similar since it differs in relation to the focal length of a camera.
    • Stabilization: Helps stabilize a shot in order to reduce blurriness or increase exposure times in non-ideal lighting environments. Can either be optical or digital.

    These aren't everything that makes a camera, but they're among the most critical.

    Now, back to this.
    Tomorrow is going to be the blood moon and many will be trying to take a picture of it. With LG's 16MP camera, you can zoom in and take a cropped photo with some decent detail. With a 12MP camera, you're not gonna get anything, just a blurry image. Any thoughts on this? Seems like people want to defend the 12MP sensors but I don't get why they are using less megapixels nowadays. Even a dual telephoto lens can't help.

    Another good example is if you're in a meeting and trying to take a picture of the white board with notes on it, the photo will be too blurry on a 12MP camera, hence a 16MP camera can capture detail from further distances.
    Let's take the V30's 16MP main camera and dissect it for a bit.

    The V30's main camera sensor is an Exmor IMX351, a backside-illuminated CMOS image sensor with an effective resolution of approximately 16MP on a 4:3 aspect ratio. On paper, that sounds fine, but here's the kicker. The sensor size is among the smallest on any flagship phone, at a mere 1/3.1", and as a result, the sensor size is probably the smallest, at 1 micron. For comparison, the iPhone X is around 1.22 microns, the Huawei Mate10 is 1.25 microns on its main camera, and the Pixel 2 XL, Galaxy Note8, HTC U11 and a Moto G5+ pack 1.4 micron pixels and have the largest sensors in this lot (1/2.6" vs 1/2.9" on the Huawei, 1/3" on the iPhone and 1/3.1" on the V30).

    At first glance, that doesn't seem too big right? Like what does pixel and sensor size have to do? Well, quite a lot actually, moreso than megapixels.

    The job of a photodiode is to capture light and resolve that light info into digital data that can be processed by the DSP into a suitable JPEG (although one can skip the JPEG processing if one wants to edit the RAW files in Lightroom). Here's where the problem lies. Smaller photodiodes are less capable of sensing light, and when they're packed so closely together, there is a tendency for them to "bounce around" or crosstalk, sometimes causing patches of weird color noise that you see in some RAW shots taken in very low light. While this problem isn't as noticeable in daylight, the smaller photodiode size also means they're more likely to be "flooded" with patches of higher exposures in contrast to lower ones. Which is why you sometimes see blowouts in highlights, mainly due to the photodiodes' limited ability to resolve detail. It also bears mentioning that because they're less capable of sensing light, the ISO would have to be jacked up as well, increasing luminance noise.

    So in your particular case, I'd wager that the 16MP sensor wouldn't immediately be a clear victor, mostly because the noise-reduction has to work extra hard to curb some of the increased noise levels due to the smaller photodiodes caused by a combination of a higher resolution on a smaller sensor. The f/1.6 aperture can help but it serves more to balance out the drawbacks. If anything, the output probably won't be much different from that produced by a U11 or Note8.

    Reason why most of the OEMs seem to have stuck with 12MP is because on the limited size on phone sensors, 12MP offers a good balance of detail, noise, dynamic range and luminance. It's also why companies have stopped chasing for more pixels and have instead looked to either dual-camera solutions or increasingly sophisticated post-processing techniques via computational means, with a famous example being Google's HDR+, popularized by the 2016 Pixels and recently made their way onto more phones with the help of XDA.

    It's also worth noting that this isn't a problem on actual cameras due to their actual size. They pack massive sensors, so it is possible to cram in a ton of pixels without compromising on the actual shot. I'm not kidding when I say a Sony Alpha a7R Mark III is better at actual photo output than a Pixel 2 XL almost solely due to its sensor since it is bigger, has a higher resolution all while packing in significantly larger pixels. Phone cameras don't share this luxury due to limited space, so it's always a balancing act.

    TL;DR version: MP doesn't matter as much now. That 16MP moon shot probably wouldn't look much different on a Pixel 2 XL.
    01-31-2018 07:08 AM
  13. Aquila's Avatar
    This is not how MP works in phones. If all other factors were equal, 16 MP would provide a poorer picture than 12 MP assuming everything other than the MP count was identical and that 12 is more than the 8 or so minimum for the basics of quality. The nature of the pixel is more important than the quantity, but there are many factors far more important... such as software.
    RaRa85 likes this.
    01-31-2018 08:17 AM
  14. Aquila's Avatar
    Also... We've had this conversation before, right?. Why not just post in your other threads about the same thing?
    01-31-2018 08:18 AM
  15. htcrazy's Avatar
    I have read every thread and article referring to pixel size, sensor size, software algorithms, etc. that I could find. When all is said and done, what matters most is what the final result looks to you. When the Galaxy S6 came out, Phil Nickinson of Android Central called it a "wonderful camera" and it certainly is. I haven't heard any phone camera since referred to in such terms. Yes, other phones do better in extreme low light, but I seldom take such pictures and when I do I use my Panasonic LX-7 with a f1.4 lens. So to me, I would rather take pictures with my S6, than with my LG V30, HTC U11 or Galaxy S8. Many will probably disagree, but in the end, all that matters is what works best for you.
    01-31-2018 09:14 AM
  16. Mike Dee's Avatar
    01-31-2018 09:39 AM
  17. Mike Dee's Avatar
    It's not always about the megapixels
    Attached Thumbnails Why a 16MP camera is better than 12MP-9693.jpg  
    01-31-2018 10:00 AM
  18. vasekvi's Avatar
    It's not always about the megapixels
    https://www.google.com/search?kgmid=...ypoint=sh/x/kp
    01-31-2018 10:46 AM
  19. Aquila's Avatar
    When the Galaxy S6 came out, Phil Nickinson of Android Central called it a "wonderful camera" and it certainly is. I haven't heard any phone camera since referred to in such terms. Yes, other phones do better in extreme low light, but I seldom take such pictures and when I do I use my Panasonic LX-7 with a f1.4 lens. So to me, I would rather take pictures with my S6, than with my LG V30, HTC U11 or Galaxy S8. Many will probably disagree, but in the end, all that matters is what works best for you.
    Agree with the what works best for you part, however I also agree that almost everyone will disagree with the S6 being a better camera than any you listed ... except for the other thing that Phil and Jerry used to regularly say, which was something to the effect of, "the best smartphone camera is the one that is in your hand".
    01-31-2018 10:57 AM
  20. flyingkytez's Avatar
    It's not always about the megapixels
    Wow, that was taken from a 12MP? That's impossible! Must've used a magnifying telescope
    01-31-2018 06:52 PM
  21. flyingkytez's Avatar
    Well, this post is going to be a long one. So sit back, relax and grab a cuppa because you're about to learn something you probably haven't seen before.

    I can understand why one would think a camera with a higher megapixel count would do better than a lower megapixel count. That's because megapixels denote a camera's resolution, with a megapixel being approximately 1 million pixels. It's not hard to know that in theory, a camera with a resolution of 21 million pixels will resolve more detail than a camera with 12 million pixels. It's part of the reason why people seem to think 21MP is undoubtedly better than 12MP.

    However, this is a basic fundamental judgement error people often make. Cameras are not always about one parameter (in this case, resolution or megapixel count). Instead, they're more about multiple factors such as;
    • Lens quality: The quality of the lens denotes how sharp an image could be, especially around corners, and good quality lenses will have less artifacts such as fringing and chromatic aberrations.
    • Sensor size: The actual size of the camera's image sensor.
    • Pixel size: The actual size of each individual photodiode. This relates to MP count and sensor size
    • DSP: Known as a digital signal processor, this is the stuff that makes the automatic wizardry in your camera work.
    • Processing: How a camera processes a RAW file from the sensor into a compressed JPG matters since techniques differ from manufacturer to manufacturer.
    • Aperture f-stop: Denotes how big an aperture is in relation to a camera's focal length. Do note that an aperture of f/1.8 is not universally similar since it differs in relation to the focal length of a camera.
    • Stabilization: Helps stabilize a shot in order to reduce blurriness or increase exposure times in non-ideal lighting environments. Can either be optical or digital.

    These aren't everything that makes a camera, but they're among the most critical.

    Now, back to this.


    Let's take the V30's 16MP main camera and dissect it for a bit.

    The V30's main camera sensor is an Exmor IMX351, a backside-illuminated CMOS image sensor with an effective resolution of approximately 16MP on a 4:3 aspect ratio. On paper, that sounds fine, but here's the kicker. The sensor size is among the smallest on any flagship phone, at a mere 1/3.1", and as a result, the sensor size is probably the smallest, at 1 micron. For comparison, the iPhone X is around 1.22 microns, the Huawei Mate10 is 1.25 microns on its main camera, and the Pixel 2 XL, Galaxy Note8, HTC U11 and a Moto G5+ pack 1.4 micron pixels and have the largest sensors in this lot (1/2.6" vs 1/2.9" on the Huawei, 1/3" on the iPhone and 1/3.1" on the V30).

    At first glance, that doesn't seem too big right? Like what does pixel and sensor size have to do? Well, quite a lot actually, moreso than megapixels.

    The job of a photodiode is to capture light and resolve that light info into digital data that can be processed by the DSP into a suitable JPEG (although one can skip the JPEG processing if one wants to edit the RAW files in Lightroom). Here's where the problem lies. Smaller photodiodes are less capable of sensing light, and when they're packed so closely together, there is a tendency for them to "bounce around" or crosstalk, sometimes causing patches of weird color noise that you see in some RAW shots taken in very low light. While this problem isn't as noticeable in daylight, the smaller photodiode size also means they're more likely to be "flooded" with patches of higher exposures in contrast to lower ones. Which is why you sometimes see blowouts in highlights, mainly due to the photodiodes' limited ability to resolve detail. It also bears mentioning that because they're less capable of sensing light, the ISO would have to be jacked up as well, increasing luminance noise.

    So in your particular case, I'd wager that the 16MP sensor wouldn't immediately be a clear victor, mostly because the noise-reduction has to work extra hard to curb some of the increased noise levels due to the smaller photodiodes caused by a combination of a higher resolution on a smaller sensor. The f/1.6 aperture can help but it serves more to balance out the drawbacks. If anything, the output probably won't be much different from that produced by a U11 or Note8.

    Reason why most of the OEMs seem to have stuck with 12MP is because on the limited size on phone sensors, 12MP offers a good balance of detail, noise, dynamic range and luminance. It's also why companies have stopped chasing for more pixels and have instead looked to either dual-camera solutions or increasingly sophisticated post-processing techniques via computational means, with a famous example being Google's HDR+, popularized by the 2016 Pixels and recently made their way onto more phones with the help of XDA.

    It's also worth noting that this isn't a problem on actual cameras due to their actual size. They pack massive sensors, so it is possible to cram in a ton of pixels without compromising on the actual shot. I'm not kidding when I say a Sony Alpha a7R Mark III is better at actual photo output than a Pixel 2 XL almost solely due to its sensor since it is bigger, has a higher resolution all while packing in significantly larger pixels. Phone cameras don't share this luxury due to limited space, so it's always a balancing act.

    TL;DR version: MP doesn't matter as much now. That 16MP moon shot probably wouldn't look much different on a Pixel 2 XL.
    Do you know why cropped pictures look blurry with 12MP as opposed to the 16MP? Try taking a picture of a book from far away.

    Unedited cropped photo: 13MP ZTE camera VS 16MP LG V20. Tried this on a Galaxy S7 back when I had one, same result. I take landscape photos so this is important to me.
    Why a 16MP camera is better than 12MP-photogrid_1517443283180.jpg

    Another good example is taking a picture of someone's license plate while driving. Tried it with the 12MP, the plate was unreadable. The 16MP was able to capture it. Important if you need to report a bad driver or capture evidence.

    BTW the Galaxy S7/S7 Edge/S7 Active, Note 7 camera sucks. It's only good because of the dual pixel technology, otherwise the 12MP camera was unsatisfactory, picture quality looked reduced from the previous year's model. My eyes can see the sharpness difference.
    01-31-2018 07:03 PM
  22. Aquila's Avatar
    Do you know why cropped pictures look blurry with 12MP as opposed to the 16MP? Try taking a picture of a book from far away.

    Unedited cropped photo: 13MP ZTE camera VS 16MP LG V20
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	PhotoGrid_1517443283180.jpg 
Views:	38 
Size:	291.3 KB 
ID:	278562
    Two different cameras, probably two different sensors, definitley different software, possibly taken with different settings, etc, etc.
    01-31-2018 07:05 PM
  23. Mike Dee's Avatar
    Wow, that was taken from a 12MP? That's impossible! Must've used a magnifying telescope
    6 Megapixel....and if you crop it enough you can see the US flag left behind from Apollo 11.
    01-31-2018 07:14 PM
  24. flyingkytez's Avatar
    Two different cameras, probably two different sensors, definitley different software, possibly taken with different settings, etc, etc.
    I don't have a Galaxy S8 to test now but I did several tests when I used to have one. Couldn't capture detail when cropping images (can't capture the whiteboard written notes on the wall).
    01-31-2018 07:17 PM
  25. Aquila's Avatar
    I don't have a Galaxy S8 to test now but I did several tests when I used to have one. Couldn't capture detail when cropping images (can't capture the whiteboard written notes on the wall).
    Yeah I'm just saying if we're trying to compare different cameras, there are a lot more factors than just the MP count and also that the MP count is probably one of the least important factors.
    01-31-2018 07:19 PM
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