10-09-2015 01:03 PM
145 12345 ...
tools
  1. garrettvp9's Avatar
    This whole OIS issue is kind of like NFC in the one plus 2, except the abscence of OIS makes more sense from a budget point of view.

    Posted via the Android Central App
    08-03-2015 03:01 AM
  2. getbretweir's Avatar
    This whole OIS issue is kind of like NFC in the one plus 2, except the abscence of OIS makes more sense from a budget point of view.

    Posted via the Android Central App
    people don't buy Motorola phones for the camera, but for a great user experience on a bloat free, unlocked device for a reasonable price. so yeah, to your point, not having OIS makes sense.

    as far as OP2, it's a little surprising they'd omit some features that seem pretty much standard. I don't use NFC so no loss there, but I was really disappointed not to see quick charge ... again, another feature you'd expect to see in 2015.

    the problem with One+ is they have an identity crisis. "try to please everybody and you'll please nobody"

    Posted via the Android Central App
    kingorkid likes this.
    08-03-2015 04:17 AM
  3. happasaiyan's Avatar
    I don't expect much out of any smartphone camera, because they all suck compared to, you know, an actual camera. They are convenient because we always have them close, but if you are expecting to get high quality pictures out of your smartphone, your expectations might be a bit off.

    I see people complaining about pictures taken on smartphones in low light all the time. Then when the new best phone comes out, they all want to see the low light pictures. Guess what? They are still going to suck. If you have a really steady hand (or smartphone tripod) and your subjects don't move, it's possible to take a half-decent pic in low light on your smartphone. Anything else, and it's not going to be pretty.

    If I want to take better pictures than my current smartphone takes, I'm not going to be looking at other smartphones. I'll be reaching for my Nikon J1, Coolpix A, or my D600.

    The sensor and the glass on the technical side are the biggest contributors to a high quality picture. VR/OIS are nice, but typically only improve about 3-4 stops. It's also useless if you are in low light, but your subjects are moving, as it only helps to correct the movement of the one holding the device taking the pictures.
    08-03-2015 09:10 AM
  4. Shepx13's Avatar
    people don't buy Motorola phones for the camera, but for a great user experience on a bloat free, unlocked device for a reasonable price.
    You're absolutely right. And look where that has gotten them up to this point with the previous Moto X phones: disappointing sales. In fact, sales for the moto x have been so disappointing, that if it weren't for the Moto G doing so well in emerging markets, Lenovo may not have even bought Motorola.

    Look, you can play the fanboy/apologist argument all you want in order to justify your purchase. The fact is that Motorola sees they needed to make drastic changes to the Moto X if they wanted it to be successful. They acknowledged in their release how important it was for people to have a quality cell phone camera. They even added a selfie flash (ugh) to entice buyers.

    They definitely upped their game by including a very good, possibly top of the line sensor in it, which is great! And if they couldn't include OIS due to costs, while still disappointing, I can understand that. But there is no excuse for them to not have better software support than they do now. Either by enabling CameraApi2, or just giving us a better app from themselves.

    Let's use another analogy. Let's say Hyundai decided to get into the sports car segment. They want to make an affordable sports car that is competitive. And they released a new way to purchase their car direct. You can customize your car's interior and exterior colors and trims. It was a fantastic idea, and lots of people loved it. But the car, being marketed as a Sportscar (flagship), was underwhelming compared to its class rivals when it came to performance.
    So they went back and redesigned it. Came back with the same customization options, but included a new, top of the line engine that had just as much power as it's rivals. People rejoiced! But that rejoicing fell to disappointment when they find out that the car is not only available only in an automatic (no manual transmission), but you don't even get the option override the auto transmission temporarily like you can most other cars. So you have all of this power at your fingertips, but you can't really make use of it to the best of its ability because they placed a handicap on it with their transmission choice.

    This is my problem with the moto x. No OIS? Ok, I can understand. No real, genuine software support to make the most out their hardware? Very disappointing. I want to support them and their vision for an android phone. I don't like TouchWiz or other skins. But I also don't want to give up other things to get my lag fee android experience.
    Ralph Seifer likes this.
    08-03-2015 09:40 AM
  5. Shepx13's Avatar
    I don't expect much out of any smartphone camera, because they all suck compared to, you know, an actual camera. They are convenient because we always have them close, but if you are expecting to get high quality pictures out of your smartphone, your expectations might be a bit off.

    I see people complaining about pictures taken on smartphones in low light all the time. Then when the new best phone comes out, they all want to see the low light pictures. Guess what? They are still going to suck. If you have a really steady hand (or smartphone tripod) and your subjects don't move, it's possible to take a half-decent pic in low light on your smartphone. Anything else, and it's not going to be pretty.

    If I want to take better pictures than my current smartphone takes, I'm not going to be looking at other smartphones. I'll be reaching for my Nikon J1, Coolpix A, or my D600.

    The sensor and the glass on the technical side are the biggest contributors to a high quality picture. VR/OIS are nice, but typically only improve about 3-4 stops. It's also useless if you are in low light, but your subjects are moving, as it only helps to correct the movement of the one holding the device taking the pictures.
    I've really respected your no frills leaks to us, and appreciate them. But I'm very disappointed to see you going this route in their defense. It's the moto x 2014 all over again? "Hey, you don't really need a good camera phone. If you really care, just use a real camera". Sorry, that just doesn't fly.

    I not only have a full ILC camera kit, but I have a Nikon coolpix A as my portable option. That was a > $1000 camera on release. But sometimes it's just not feasible to carry it.

    I never said I expect quality to rival dedicated cameras. I said I expect quality (and user controls) to match the other competing flagship phones. The quality looks like is there. The controls? Not so much.

    Sorry of you think having a software experience similar to other flagships is too much to ask for. I don't. And if they don't want to spend the effort doing so, just enable CameraApi2 (either fully or partially) so I can buy a separate app to do the things I want to.
    08-03-2015 09:48 AM
  6. happasaiyan's Avatar
    I've really respected your no frills leaks to us, and appreciate them. But I'm very disappointed to see you going this route in their defense. It's the moto x 2014 all over again? "Hey, you don't really need a good camera phone. If you really care, just use a real camera". Sorry, that just doesn't fly.

    I not only have a full ILC camera kit, but I have a Nikon coolpix A as my portable option. That was a > $1000 camera on release. But sometimes it's just not feasible to carry it.

    I never said I expect quality to rival dedicated cameras. I said I expect quality (and user controls) to match the other competing flagship phones. The quality looks like is there. The controls? Not so much.

    Sorry of you think having a software experience similar to other flagships is too much to ask for. I don't. And if they don't want to spend the effort doing so, just enable CameraApi2 (either fully or partially) so I can buy a separate app to do the things I want to.
    My leaks are one thing, my personal opinion is the other. I really do like these phones, and am not "coming to their defense" as much as I am coming to the defense of all smartphones. Should the camera be as good as the S6? Yes, it should. Is it? I really don't know, as I've never used it, nor compared photos side to side with another device. All I can go on at this point is that DXO rated them towards the top of all the smartphones they've tested. They have done their tests with the phones they have. You haven't. So at this point, it looks like the phone will at least be able to hold it's own compared to other phones up to this point.

    That is not my point, though. I'm not defending them or their decisions. I just honestly don't care much about smartphone picture quality. I am a photography hobbyist. I will never reach for my phone with the expectation for a good shot, full controls or not. Regardless of whether I could manually control the shutter speed, aperture, and ISO, it doesn't make the sensor bigger or better. RAW output would be welcomed, but do you know whether or not manual controls + RAW is something that Moto hasn't built into their software? I don't. They most likely haven't, but I won't jump to conclusions before ever touching the device or knowing for certain.
    DC Wuff, On2Vegas and Ralph Seifer like this.
    08-03-2015 10:12 AM
  7. syspry's Avatar
    You're absolutely right. And look where that has gotten them up to this point with the previous Moto X phones: disappointing sales. In fact, sales for the moto x have been so disappointing, that if it weren't for the Moto G doing so well in emerging markets, Lenovo may not have even bought Motorola.

    Look, you can play the fanboy/apologist argument all you want in order to justify your purchase. The fact is that Motorola sees they needed to make drastic changes to the Moto X if they wanted it to be successful. They acknowledged in their release how important it was for people to have a quality cell phone camera. They even added a selfie flash (ugh) to entice buyers.

    They definitely upped their game by including a very good, possibly top of the line sensor in it, which is great! And if they couldn't include OIS due to costs, while still disappointing, I can understand that. But there is no excuse for them to not have better software support than they do now. Either by enabling CameraApi2, or just giving us a better app from themselves.

    Let's use another analogy. Let's say Hyundai decided to get into the sports car segment. They want to make an affordable sports car that is competitive. And they released a new way to purchase their car direct. You can customize your car's interior and exterior colors and trims. It was a fantastic idea, and lots of people loved it. But the car, being marketed as a Sportscar (flagship), was underwhelming compared to its class rivals when it came to performance.
    So they went back and redesigned it. Came back with the same customization options, but included a new, top of the line engine that had just as much power as it's rivals. People rejoiced! But that rejoicing fell to disappointment when they find out that the car is not only available only in an automatic (no manual transmission), but you don't even get the option override the auto transmission temporarily like you can most other cars. So you have all of this power at your fingertips, but you can't really make use of it to the best of its ability because they placed a handicap on it with their transmission choice.

    This is my problem with the moto x. No OIS? Ok, I can understand. No real, genuine software support to make the most out their hardware? Very disappointing. I want to support them and their vision for an android phone. I don't like TouchWiz or other skins. But I also don't want to give up other things to get my lag fee android experience.
    I'm not sure how this is affecting photo quality, can you post the photos you've taken so far with your Moto X Style so I can what you're referring to?
    Ry and kingorkid like this.
    08-03-2015 10:16 AM
  8. Shepx13's Avatar
    I'm not sure how this is affecting photo quality, can you post the photos you've taken so far with your Moto X Style so I can what you're referring to?
    What, can't discuss with facts, so just dismiss? That's fine, move along.
    08-03-2015 10:41 AM
  9. syspry's Avatar
    What, can't discuss with facts, so just dismiss? That's fine, move along.
    Just asking a simple question
    08-03-2015 10:43 AM
  10. Shepx13's Avatar
    RAW output would be welcomed, but do you know whether or not manual controls + RAW is something that Moto hasn't built into their software? I don't. They most likely haven't, but I won't jump to conclusions before ever touching the device or knowing for certain.
    Raw and manual controls are currently NOT supported. The person from dpreview that did the camera test verified this.
    That doesn't mean they can't add it later. But until we see a release saying it's upcoming, or it shows up on the phone itself, we can't assume that will change.
    08-03-2015 10:53 AM
  11. noobsquared's Avatar
    I didn't realize that. are you sure it's not the same sensor used in Droid Turbo or Z phones?
    08-03-2015 10:56 AM
  12. happasaiyan's Avatar
    Raw and manual controls are currently NOT supported. The person from dpreview that did the camera test verified this.
    That doesn't mean they can't add it later. But until we see a release saying it's upcoming, or it shows up on the phone itself, we can't assume that will change.
    Ok, you are free to complain about the lack of manual controls now. Options are always good, and it's disappointing they would not use an API that is available to them. They could change it later (they are known to change their camera app), but yeah, I wouldn't bank on it.

    I hope you know that you are in the minority, though.
    08-03-2015 11:03 AM
  13. Aquila's Avatar
    I'd agree that until the phone is out on final software, there is little ground to say it sucks when all of the evidence shows it near the top of the heap.

    M Dev Nexus 6 Assassin Edition. Gonfaloniere
    Almeuit likes this.
    08-03-2015 11:11 AM
  14. jephanie's Avatar
    Take a poll of general users and ask the questions that make a device appeal to them and I'm pretty sure "ability to manipulate aperture, shutter speed and ISO and edit in RAW format" would hit the absolute bottom of the list of responses. Most people don't even know what any of that means and the vast majority of people simply want to whip out their phones, launch the camera and snap a pic. They aren't predisposed to micromanage all the settings nor do they use software to edit RAW images. The vast majority of smartphone users are using the camera as a point-and-shoot device.

    Claiming a device is a loser because of the failure to incorporate that capability means nearly every single smartphone is a loser. And without seeing how good or bad the camera is on the 3rd gen X, it is simply premature to say it's a winner or loser. But it's obvious that someone demanding CameraApi2 will have a very limited choice of devices.
    08-03-2015 12:00 PM
  15. Aquila's Avatar
    Just curious, what source is used to state that camera2 isn't supported by the Style? And is it stating that it is not used by the stock Moto app, or not supported by the hardware? Neither link in the OP mention Camera2 anywhere in the article. Did they try the MC test on unfinished software and call it missing? Where did they say it is missing? I have seen exactly zero sourced statements on this.
    Ry likes this.
    08-03-2015 01:01 PM
  16. Ry's Avatar
    Take a poll of general users and ask the questions that make a device appeal to them and I'm pretty sure "ability to manipulate aperture, shutter speed and ISO and edit in RAW format" would hit the absolute bottom of the list of responses. Most people don't even know what any of that means and the vast majority of people simply want to whip out their phones, launch the camera and snap a pic. They aren't predisposed to micromanage all the settings nor do they use software to edit RAW images. The vast majority of smartphone users are using the camera as a point-and-shoot device.

    Claiming a device is a loser because of the failure to incorporate that capability means nearly every single smartphone is a loser. And without seeing how good or bad the camera is on the 3rd gen X, it is simply premature to say it's a winner or loser. But it's obvious that someone demanding CameraApi2 will have a very limited choice of devices.
    Exactly.

    The G4, GS6, Note 4, iPhone 6, and iPhone 6 Plus have great cameras because they take great photos. Most people don't/won't use any additional manual settings.
    Open camera app. Take photo. Review result.
    08-03-2015 01:29 PM
  17. Ry's Avatar
    What, can't discuss with facts, so just dismiss? That's fine, move along.
    ..actual photos would be facts.
    08-03-2015 01:38 PM
  18. Ry's Avatar
    Raw and manual controls are currently NOT supported. The person from dpreview that did the camera test verified this.
    That doesn't mean they can't add it later. But until we see a release saying it's upcoming, or it shows up on the phone itself, we can't assume that will change.
    Fact is end-user support for RAW and manual controls aren't the be all, end all for quality photo results.
    08-03-2015 01:39 PM
  19. eao1991's Avatar
    Fact is end-user support for RAW and manual controls aren't the be all, end all for quality photo results.
    Yup. It would be great if they included it since options are always good, but for most users, they're more worried about taking a shot and having it come out looking good without the need to process RAW photos. Most are happy with using apps like Snapseed to do quick edits.
    08-03-2015 01:47 PM
  20. Shepx13's Avatar
    Fact is end-user support for RAW and manual controls aren't the be all, end all for quality photo results.
    It's not just about the raw capabilities. More than that, it's having a functional interface that allows manual control for those who wish it.

    It's as simple as this: if you're going to say you're going to be the class leader for a phone camera, and that you're going to bring it, means you BRING IT.

    Go pick up most dslrs out there. What do they have? Auto mode and manual modes. Why? Because there different user have different needs.

    There's no excuse for any phone running Lollipop to not include at least some more advanced camera features, since Google has already built it into the code.

    Even iOS has some built in manual controls now. You know, for the phone that some hardcore android peeps like to point at and say is for simple minded non-technical folks.

    It's sad to see so many band wagon apologists sticking up for Motorola on this because it's your beloved brand or future phone of choice. Typical, but sad nonetheless.
    08-03-2015 01:49 PM
  21. Ry's Avatar
    Mod note: Thread stuck for now.
    Aquila likes this.
    08-03-2015 01:51 PM
  22. Ry's Avatar
    It's not just about the raw capabilities. More than that, it's having a functional interface that allows manual control for those who wish it.

    It's as simple as this: if you're going to say you're going to be the class leader for a phone camera, and that you're going to bring it, means you BRING IT.

    Go pick up most dslrs out there. What do they have? Auto mode and manual modes. Why? Because there different user have different needs.

    There's no excuse for any phone running Lollipop to not include at least some more advanced camera features, since Google has already built it into the code.

    Even iOS has some built in manual controls now. You know, for the phone that some hardcore android peeps like to point at and say is for simple minded non-technical folks.

    It's sad to see so many band wagon apologists sticking up for Motorola on this because it's your beloved brand or future phone of choice. Typical, but sad nonetheless.
    Your definition of "bringing it" probably doesn't line up with a general user's expectation.

    Most people are probably interested in the actual result. When Motorola claims best in class camera, I'm concerned with the results not necessarily in manually controlling the shot.

    Here's an example of how most people and most reviewers are going to test if the Moto X Style has a good camera or not:

    • Take low-light photo with the rear camera. Compare to iPhone 6, iPhone 6 Plus, Note 4, GS6, and G4.
    • Take a motion shot, maybe sports or kid playing, or dog running. Compare to iPhone 6, iPhone 6 Plus, Note 4, GS6, and G4.
    • Take a low-light selfie. Compare to iPhone 6, iPhone 6 Plus, Note 4, GS6, and G4.
    • Take a picture of flower. Compare to iPhone 6, iPhone 6 Plus, Note 4, GS6, and G4.
    • Take a picture where the subject is only lit by a streetlight. Compare to iPhone 6, iPhone 6 Plus, Note 4, GS6, and G4.
    • Take a landscape shot in bright light. Compare to iPhone 6, iPhone 6 Plus, Note 4, GS6, and G4.
    • Take a picture of a building. Compare to iPhone 6, iPhone 6 Plus, Note 4, GS6, and G4.


    The Moto X Style will be judged on it's point and shoot capabilities - just like current camera phone kings (iPhone 6, iPhone 6 Plus, Note 4, GS6, and G4). DSLRs are irrelevant to the conversation.
    08-03-2015 02:01 PM
  23. Ry's Avatar
    Yup. It would be great if they included it since options are always good, but for most users, they're more worried about taking a shot and having it come out looking good without the need to process RAW photos. Most are happy with using apps like Snapseed to do quick edits.
    I agree. It would be great if those options were available.

    I wouldn't use them and the lack of those options don't automatically mean that Motorola didn't "bring it" as so they've claimed.

    In the end, if the shots don't come out as good as the iPhone 6, iPhone 6 Plus, Note 4, GS6, and G4, Motorola will definitely hear it.

    Though how do they define "class" in "best in class"? What if the iPhone 6, iPhone 6 Plus, Note 4, GS6, and G4 aren't considered since they're in a higher price class? That would be nuts.
    08-03-2015 02:05 PM
  24. Shepx13's Avatar
    This is my last post on this thread. I'm tired of people acting like I (and others like me) have no right to be upset by Motorolas decisions on this topic. But as I said, it's no different than any other controversial topic on these forums. It's always the same. Someone is bothered because there's a feature missing from an otherwise good phone for them, they bring it up, and the Fanboys come out in full force in defense of their favorite company. Swappable batteries, SD cards, extra long battery life, waterproof, you name it, if it's something they don't personally need, they'll defend their phone of choice, disregarding anyone else who has a different need than theirs. The only difference here is that my main complaint is fixable, since it's a software issue.
    08-03-2015 02:07 PM
  25. happasaiyan's Avatar
    This is my last post on this thread. I'm tired of people acting like I (and others like me) have no right to be upset by Motorolas decisions on this topic. But as I said, it's no different than any other controversial topic on these forums. It's always the same. Someone is bothered because there's a feature missing from an otherwise good phone for them, they bring it up, and the Fanboys come out in full force in defense of their favorite company. Swappable batteries, SD cards, extra long battery life, waterproof, you name it, if it's something they don't personally need, they'll defend their phone of choice, disregarding anyone else who has a different need than theirs. The only difference here is that my main complaint is fixable, since it's a software issue.
    You're upset with Motorola? It's pretty simple- if you don't like the phone, don't buy it.
    Ry and jephanie like this.
    08-03-2015 04:10 PM
145 12345 ...

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 03-05-2016, 06:06 AM
  2. Replies: 27
    Last Post: 08-22-2015, 06:27 PM
  3. Moto G my review
    By rajamass in forum Moto G (2015)
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 08-19-2015, 01:11 PM
  4. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-03-2015, 01:39 PM
  5. Does the Moto X Style have Qi Wireless charging?
    By Nick_87 in forum Ask a Question
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-03-2015, 10:39 AM
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD