08-09-2016 08:44 AM
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  1. Aquila's Avatar
    All of that nonsense said, I'm strongly considering buying a Moto Z to try to change my mind on it. I need to stop comparing it to an X; they have nothing in common and the Z needs to be evaluated on its own merits.
    06-12-2016 06:22 AM
  2. D13H4RD2L1V3's Avatar
    I was also one of Moto's biggest supporters from 2013 until mid 2015 when it became apparent that they were no longer supporting their devices in the manner that made them an industry leader for the prior two generations. In 2013 my posts are all over the forums defending the decision to use the custom SoC they used, and I was using exclusively Moto phones until the 6P was released (So three X 13's, 14, 15, Nexus 6 and a G + a 360). I didn't to use my X 2015 very long because a month or two in my daughter apparently ninja-star'd it into the floor - which is when I had to return to using the Nexus 6 / X '14 combo I'd been dual wielding for a bit. Losing Moto is like losing a long-time friend (even though there's only two years and 8 devices in our relationship) - I didn't come to the breakup lightly and I wouldn't have chosen it.

    So, I don't believe the Z is going to be a bad phone. I think it's going to be a very good phone for those who choose it. But there's no denying it's a directional shift and it's one that I find very frustrating because of the opportunity cost. Moto decided to stop supporting their devices with timely updates and security patches. That doesn't matter to most people, but it matters a lot to me. Moto decided to provide less support for their devices from a customer service standpoint. That doesn't matter to most people, but it matters to those who get phones that have issues. Or that have questions about shipping delays, etc. Moto was one of the leaders in bringing new and better things to Android. MotoMaker, the G line, the X line, very well designed phones that are not in line with the new Z. That's fine, the Z is something new. It's not a continuation of the X line - but the X line is what I was on board with. And I came to the X line because it was a Nexus + More Better Stuff that worked on Verizon. The 2014 was even more so, with leather and even better features. The 2015 brought it more in line with mainstream devices. In 2016, I can safely say, the Z is definitely not a Nexus + More Better Stuff. It's a Moto Z, which is different. Where the X was about simplicity - data driven components matching how customers actually use their phones - the Z seems to be more about blazing a new path and changing how customers use their phones.

    I completely understand some people are going to love it and some are going to hate it. And to each their own and we shouldn't ever begrudge someone for having or sharing their opinion on what they want to spend their money on. I don't believe that it is elitist to say that one line of phones fits a person's needs better than another. I also don't believe it is safe to say the Z is the logical next step in the X evolution. They share some design language and obviously some software and history, but modules and such cannot be said to be a further refinement to more elegance and simplicity.
    Very well said. +1

    Posted via the Android Central App
    06-12-2016 06:52 AM
  3. Ry's Avatar
    I was also one of Moto's biggest supporters from 2013 until mid 2015 when it became apparent that they were no longer supporting their devices in the manner that made them an industry leader for the prior two generations. In 2013 my posts are all over the forums defending the decision to use the custom SoC they used, and I was using exclusively Moto phones until the 6P was released (So three X 13's, 14, 15, Nexus 6 and a G + a 360). I didn't to use my X 2015 very long because a month or two in my daughter apparently ninja-star'd it into the floor - which is when I had to return to using the Nexus 6 / X '14 combo I'd been dual wielding for a bit. Losing Moto is like losing a long-time friend (even though there's only two years and 8 devices in our relationship) - I didn't come to the breakup lightly and I wouldn't have chosen it.

    So, I don't believe the Z is going to be a bad phone. I think it's going to be a very good phone for those who choose it. But there's no denying it's a directional shift and it's one that I find very frustrating because of the opportunity cost. Moto decided to stop supporting their devices with timely updates and security patches. That doesn't matter to most people, but it matters a lot to me. Moto decided to provide less support for their devices from a customer service standpoint. That doesn't matter to most people, but it matters to those who get phones that have issues. Or that have questions about shipping delays, etc. Moto was one of the leaders in bringing new and better things to Android. MotoMaker, the G line, the X line, very well designed phones that are not in line with the new Z. That's fine, the Z is something new. It's not a continuation of the X line - but the X line is what I was on board with. And I came to the X line because it was a Nexus + More Better Stuff that worked on Verizon. The 2014 was even more so, with leather and even better features. The 2015 brought it more in line with mainstream devices. In 2016, I can safely say, the Z is definitely not a Nexus + More Better Stuff. It's a Moto Z, which is different. Where the X was about simplicity - data driven components matching how customers actually use their phones - the Z seems to be more about blazing a new path and changing how customers use their phones.

    I completely understand some people are going to love it and some are going to hate it. And to each their own and we shouldn't ever begrudge someone for having or sharing their opinion on what they want to spend their money on. I don't believe that it is elitist to say that one line of phones fits a person's needs better than another. I also don't believe it is safe to say the Z is the logical next step in the X evolution. They share some design language and obviously some software and history, but modules and such cannot be said to be a further refinement to more elegance and simplicity.
    Here's the thing. Based on history, the Moto Z is a logical product for Motorola. Yes, it's not the next Moto X. Yes, it's not what you want. But there's more to Moto than just last three years.

    Posted via the Android Central App on the Moto X Pure Edition
    06-12-2016 08:10 AM
  4. Ry's Avatar
    Trying to break into the module space is fine - obviously the market is pushing that way, as two separate OEM's are trying it out. The problem I have with it is that nearly all of the modules are making up for deficiencies that the phones now possess relative to other flagships because their contents were moved to modules.

    Example: Music, Photos & Battery Life. Having to choose which one you want isn't fun when it's clear that an OEM can make a device that nails all three without modules.

    So I'm in favor of things changing and in favor of OEM's trying new things out - but modules need to bring functionality that is otherwise impossible to bring to a phone. Otherwise, why not put that functionality in the phone?
    Music: if the speaker quality is the same as the last Moto X, except its a single speaker vs. dual it's a deficiency? Must be dual to sound good?

    Photos: we haven't seen samples from either Moto Z. Are you implying the camera is going to suck because of the rumored Hasselblad camera mod?

    Battery life: 2600 mAh is probably too small, sure. We're probably going to see a Galaxy S6 situation again. But yeah, let's get confirmation on that before we assume it won't get through a day.

    Posted via the Android Central App on the Moto X Pure Edition
    06-12-2016 08:15 AM
  5. Aquila's Avatar
    Music: if the speaker quality is the same as the last Moto X, except its a single speaker vs. dual it's a deficiency? Must be dual to sound good?

    Photos: we haven't seen samples from either Moto Z. Are you implying the camera is going to suck because of the rumored Hasselblad camera mod?

    Battery life: 2600 mAh is probably too small, sure. We're probably going to see a Galaxy S6 situation again. But yeah, let's get confirmation on that before we assume it won't get through a day.

    Posted via the Android Central App on the Moto X Pure Edition
    That's not what I meant on any of the points. I mean, choosing between an extended battery or improved audio experience or improved camera experience - instead of baking all three into the device. Granted, several modules are the feature + some battery. I'm not saying the camera or speakers or battery life is going to suck out of the box. I'm saying it's going to be worse than if they'd put the better functionality into the device to begin with. There's no reason not to have a world class DAC, amp and speakers on the device to begin with. So I do have a problem with that being a mod, because HTC and others are putting it right in the device. The mod in that case isn't bringing new functionality, it's bringing a deficiency up to par. On a flagship (presumably). That's unacceptable on a flagship. This is why I'm saying that modules should bring NEW functionality, especially things that are impossible without modules. As an example, the Pro Camera Mod, if that is real, is something a phone just can't do without being significantly huger. So that's a completely acceptable mod to have and it's the one I'd be most interested in getting. So even if those three things are great out of the box, they would have been better if the improvements were baked in, rather than sold separately. Is there going to be a mod that adds a better DAC, a headphone amp, better battery life and the much better camera? Seems like that one mod would put all others out of business.
    06-12-2016 08:31 AM
  6. Ry's Avatar
    That's not what I meant on any of the points. I mean, choosing between an extended battery or improved audio experience or improved camera experience - instead of baking all three into the device. Granted, several modules are the feature + some battery. I'm not saying the camera or speakers or battery life is going to suck out of the box. I'm saying it's going to be worse than if they'd put the better functionality into the device to begin with. There's no reason not to have a world class DAC, amp and speakers on the device to begin with. So I do have a problem with that being a mod, because HTC and others are putting it right in the device. The mod in that case isn't bringing new functionality, it's bringing a deficiency up to par. On a flagship (presumably). That's unacceptable on a flagship. This is why I'm saying that modules should bring NEW functionality, especially things that are impossible without modules. As an example, the Pro Camera Mod, if that is real, is something a phone just can't do without being significantly huger. So that's a completely acceptable mod to have and it's the one I'd be most interested in getting. So even if those three things are great out of the box, they would have been better if the improvements were baked in, rather than sold separately. Is there going to be a mod that adds a better DAC, a headphone amp, better battery life and the much better camera? Seems like that one mod would put all others out of business.
    In the case of the Moto Z, how do we know there are deficiencies with photos and music playback based on what we've seen so far?

    Battery, I understand the 2600 mAh spec causes concern.

    I'm just trying to better understand where your assumptions are coming from.

    Posted via the Android Central App on the Moto X Pure Edition
    06-12-2016 08:47 AM
  7. Aquila's Avatar
    In the case of the Moto Z, how do we know there are deficiencies with photos and music playback based on what we've seen so far?

    Battery, I understand the 2600 mAh spec causes concern.

    I'm just trying to better understand where your assumptions are coming from.

    Posted via the Android Central App on the Moto X Pure Edition
    I'm not assuming that they're bad. I'm assuming that they're worse than when combined with the enhancements from mods provide. So they can be independently awesome, but whatever they are is going to be less than whatever they are + something better. It's simple logic. Something + something else > something (unless something else = 0 or is negative). So if we assume that the mods are in fact enhancements, then they're positive added value and therefore make a combination that is better than the original something.

    But music is a great example, because there's a very good reason to believe speaker playback is going to be worse than what the HTC 10 provides out of the box and that, with the attachment for the JBL SoundBoost Speaker will be better than what the HTC 10 provides. Until headphones come into play, then HTC probably has a significant lead even with mods on the Moto Z.

    I'm not too worried about 2600 mAh battery. The device runs more modern software and has a smaller AMOLED screen than the last X, so my guess is that battery life between the X 2015 and the Z are going to be very similar. I don't like it when OEM's go down in battery size from year to year, but they're trying to make the phone tiny and most mods have battery space within them as well from what I can tell.
    06-12-2016 09:02 AM
  8. Ry's Avatar
    I'm not assuming that they're bad. I'm assuming that they're worse than when combined with the enhancements from mods provide. So they can be independently awesome, but whatever they are is going to be less than whatever they are + something better. It's simple logic. Something + something else > something (unless something else = 0 or is negative). So if we assume that the mods are in fact enhancements, then they're positive added value and therefore make a combination that is better than the original something.

    But music is a great example, because there's a very good reason to believe speaker playback is going to be worse than what the HTC 10 provides out of the box and that, with the attachment for the JBL SoundBoost Speaker will be better than what the HTC 10 provides. Until headphones come into play, then HTC probably has a significant lead even with mods on the Moto Z.

    I'm not too worried about 2600 mAh battery. The device runs more modern software and has a smaller AMOLED screen than the last X, so my guess is that battery life between the X 2015 and the Z are going to be very similar. I don't like it when OEM's go down in battery size from year to year, but they're trying to make the phone tiny and most mods have battery space within them as well from what I can tell.
    ..so if the Moto Z sounded the same as the HTC 10, music playback wouldn't be a deficiency even with the existence of the JBL SoundBoost speakers?

    The SoundBoost speakers make up for crappy audio from the phone's speakers.

    Posted via the Android Central App on the Moto X Pure Edition
    06-12-2016 09:08 AM
  9. Aquila's Avatar
    ..so if the Moto Z sounded the same as the HTC 10, music playback wouldn't be a deficiency even with the existence of the JBL SoundBoost speakers?

    The SoundBoost speakers make up for crappy audio from the phone's speakers.

    Posted via the Android Central App on the Moto X Pure Edition
    If the phone came with an industry leading DAC and headphone amp, and then a speaker module existed to make it super loud for people who wanted that - yes, I'd be happy. I can't tell, but I don't think the SoundBoost does anything extra for headphone listening. Which, while I agree with utilizing the USB C port for that functionality long term, right now the most important use case for me that requires good audio output is the speakers on my bike, which requires an auxiliary cable that unfortunately goes through the headphone jack, which in the case of the Z is the C to Aux converter - which almost certainly doesn't have an amp in it. Now someone else can make that module, but again my preference would be that the phone itself be an industry leader without the need for modifications since listening to music is a pretty common use case. I haven't even heard of a mod that enhances headphone listening (yet).
    06-12-2016 09:26 AM
  10. Ry's Avatar
    If the phone came with an industry leading DAC and headphone amp, and then a speaker module existed to make it super loud for people who wanted that - yes, I'd be happy. I can't tell, but I don't think the SoundBoost does anything extra for headphone listening. Which, while I agree with utilizing the USB C port for that functionality long term, right now the most important use case for me that requires good audio output is the speakers on my bike, which requires an auxiliary cable that unfortunately goes through the headphone jack, which in the case of the Z is the C to Aux converter - which almost certainly doesn't have an amp in it. Now someone else can make that module, but again my preference would be that the phone itself be an industry leader without the need for modifications since listening to music is a pretty common use case. I haven't even heard of a mod that enhances headphone listening (yet).
    Mods aren't as relevant to your specific example though. That's more of Motorola's decision to not incorporate a 3.5mm audio jack.

    Posted via the Android Central App on the Moto X Pure Edition
    06-12-2016 09:44 AM
  11. sharkita's Avatar
    Trying to break into the module space is fine - obviously the market is pushing that way, as two separate OEM's are trying it out. The problem I have with it is that nearly all of the modules are making up for deficiencies that the phones now possess relative to other flagships because their contents were moved to modules.

    Example: Music, Photos & Battery Life. Having to choose which one you want isn't fun when it's clear that an OEM can make a device that nails all three without modules.

    So I'm in favor of things changing and in favor of OEM's trying new things out - but modules need to bring functionality that is otherwise impossible to bring to a phone. Otherwise, why not put that functionality in the phone?
    Exactly!
    06-12-2016 11:35 AM
  12. zerospace-net's Avatar
    Well, I'm late to this party! Being that up until fairly recently, I was a big moto fan, I feel like the Moto Z is a total letdown in so many ways. And Ara, your opinions have lots of merit, but I disagree with you on one big thing: that camera bump. I've HATED it on every phone that's ever had one of those big ugly things (including how many Nokia windows phones? Ugh). Yes, I slap a case on just about every one of my phones, but I still don't like that if I don't, I'm going to scratch the living crap out of it. There's just no way around it. Heck, I worry about scratching the back of my SGS7 when I take the case off of it for 5 minutes to wipe the whole thing down! I just worry about stuff like that. My phones usually look almost like new a year later, that's how anal I am about caring for them (and no, I do not use an otter box case, either). Ugliness is a subjective thing, and I just find camera humps/bumps/bars/big things that absolutely overwhelm the look of the back of a phone to be ugly -- that's just my personal opinion, though (obviously some others feel the same way). In all fairness, I found the back of the 6P to be ugly as heck, too.

    The modules.. eh. They don't do anything for me. I didn't find them compelling on the G5, and I don't find them compelling here. I get it though, and I'm not against them. Do I hate the contacts being openly visible on the back of the Moto Z? Yep! Do I see 'em getting dirtier than heck if no mod is attached? Yep. I can't help but feel like the back of the Moto Z was designed to always have a module on it -- but selling the phone without a basic one in the box seems like the cheap, money-grabbing thing to do. Look! You can add functionality to your phone with modules! And without one, your phone will feel too thin, have a huge camera hump, and its contact points (that should be squeaky clean for a solid connection to be made to the phone for a module) are fully exposed right out of the box! Oh, and if you want to cover that up, buy a module (yay, more money for us). It feels like they're putting an unfinished product in the box and telling us that what we need to make it really whole is sold separately. meh. I hope there's something in the box to cover that up ... but I'm betting not.

    Oh yeah, and then there's that whole Verizon exclusive thing. That alone is going to destroy this phone's chances of success in the broader market. Ah, well. Hopefully Lenovo will learn from this (or maybe not).

    I got disgruntled with moto/lenovo when they stopped caring about updates to their existing phones and their dev/forums/support team started acting like they were one giant, disorganized mess. At that point, I exited the Motorola Feedback Network for good, and I worried about what the future with them would be like. I see now that I was absolutely right to walk away after the 2014 Moto X, and after seeing the Moto Z, I know that I will not be coming back (at least not for a very long time).
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    06-12-2016 12:25 PM
  13. benjamminh's Avatar
    Some are saying it will come with one shell included so you don't have to have those connectors naked nor have a camera hump.
    06-12-2016 03:46 PM
  14. 1901Madison's Avatar
    I love the concept of the Moto Z. Each person gets to pick the feature that most appeals to them and make the phone great at it.
    06-12-2016 04:03 PM
  15. Ry's Avatar
    Some are saying it will come with one shell included so you don't have to have those connectors naked nor have a camera hump.
    I'm leaning towards believing that it will come with a basic Style Shell.

    Posted via the Android Central App on the Moto X Pure Edition
    06-12-2016 04:26 PM
  16. Clocks's Avatar
    I love the concept of the Moto Z. Each person gets to pick the feature that most appeals to them and make the phone great at it.
    I like the fact that the phone is a true flagship device without any mods as well (assuming the camera quality is decent). I really don't buy for a second the complaints that moto "removed" stuff from the phone and are making you "buy them back" via mods. It's competitive with everything else out there and you can snap on enhancements if you want.
    06-12-2016 05:15 PM
  17. cbreze's Avatar
    I'm not a fan of the Z yet and it's not looking like I will become one. All the mods plus the thinness sans mods just doens't trip my trigger not to mention no unlocked, bloat free model for Verizon. Glad to see the different options coming along for us phone geek consumers tho as options are good. I believe I'll pass on this and wait to see what the next X brings along to the table. Meanwhile my MXPE is still going strong.
    06-12-2016 05:36 PM
  18. Toes Up's Avatar
    I like the fact that the phone is a true flagship device without any mods as well (assuming the camera quality is decent). I really don't buy for a second the complaints that moto "removed" stuff from the phone and are making you "buy them back" via mods. It's competitive with everything else out there and you can snap on enhancements if you want.
    I've been a Motorola fan, having owned the Droid Razr, Maxx, T1 & T2. With that said, the S7 gets you a great camera, water resistance, wireless charging, etc. Now, it appears, you will have to pay extra for several of those features on the Z, AND you won't be able to have them on the phone at the same time. The key will be the price. My guess is that even if the price of the phone is lower, by the time you slap on a couple of the mods, the total price will be higher. If Moto can sell it, more power to them. Time will tell.....
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    06-12-2016 05:44 PM
  19. Aquila's Avatar
    I really don't buy for a second the complaints that moto "removed" stuff from the phone and are making you "buy them back" via mods.
    I don't think that's the argument, but I could be wrong. The example that I had was audio. It is virtually 99% probable that the Z is going to be weaker at headphone playback for music, etc. than other flagships. The technology required to push a fantastic listening experience is simply absent from the Z, so there's no stretch in logic there. That doesn't mean it won't be good, it just means that it is obvious that OEM's that focused on that experience are going to do better in that category. It is obvious that they had constraints, such as budget, profile, etc. to work within that precluded them being able to ring that bell - but it still means that it is the weaker offering (on that category) out of the box. Now, as we explored before, nothing about the mods changes that. So it's not that they removed anything, the X 2015 didn't have the proper tech either - and it's not that it's a cash grab, because the tech still isn't available, even with mods. And it probably won't be.

    It's competitive with everything else out there and you can snap on enhancements if you want.
    This is likely true. As a whole package, the X 2015 was very competitive (especially at it's price) and the Z almost certainly didn't go backwards on any of the features that the majority of consumers love. I suspect they may target a similar price point this year and if they do, yeah - that's a fighter. I also have a feeling that unbreakable screen and waterproof Z Force is going to be popular for obvious reasons, assuming that it gets marketed.

    Now here's a very important part. We KNOW that smartphones are nowhere near being able to put out high quality images that rival digital shooters without modules or some sort of similar device. If Moto can execute well on that particular module and get it out there so the majority of consumers know about it, that's the winner right there. Because while lately AC readership has been on an audio quality kick - let's be real and assume that just like the on screen vs off screen button debate, the vast majority of consumers couldn't care less about headphone audio quality. But almost everyone cares about how good their shots are when they take pictures - and a huge number of people don't take pictures with their phones because their DLSR is just that much better for the most important shots. If Moto can sell the idea that someone can truly take one device out of their bag - and if is is TRUE, then that's the winner.


    TLDR version:

    Moto should ignore what I want.
    06-12-2016 06:01 PM
  20. Clocks's Avatar
    I've been a Motorola fan, having owned the Droid Razr, Maxx, T1 & T2. With that said, the S7 gets you a great camera, water resistance, wireless charging, etc. Now, it appears, you will have to pay extra for several of those features on the Z, AND you won't be able to have them on the phone at the same time. The key will be the price. My guess is that even if the price of the phone is lower, by the time you slap on a couple of the mods, the total price will be higher. If Moto can sell it, more power to them. Time will tell.....
    None of the features of the Z were previously available from the x line then ripped out to be sold as modules, they are enhancements beyond what the x line previously offered and in some cases what no other flagship is offering (10x optical zoom, 5000+ total mah battery).

    The s7 has some things going for it, and some negatives which would forever prevent me from buying one. All indications are that the base Z will have some good and bad too.
    Aquila likes this.
    06-12-2016 06:17 PM
  21. Ry's Avatar
    I've been a Motorola fan, having owned the Droid Razr, Maxx, T1 & T2. With that said, the S7 gets you a great camera, water resistance, wireless charging, etc. Now, it appears, you will have to pay extra for several of those features on the Z, AND you won't be able to have them on the phone at the same time. The key will be the price. My guess is that even if the price of the phone is lower, by the time you slap on a couple of the mods, the total price will be higher. If Moto can sell it, more power to them. Time will tell.....
    I'll give you the wireless charging one. Previous DROIDs had it. But no previous Moto had it in the US.

    Posted via the Android Central App on the Moto X Pure Edition
    06-12-2016 06:25 PM
  22. Ry's Avatar
    I like the fact that the phone is a true flagship device without any mods as well (assuming the camera quality is decent). I really don't buy for a second the complaints that moto "removed" stuff from the phone and are making you "buy them back" via mods. It's competitive with everything else out there and you can snap on enhancements if you want.
    I don't buy that argument at all either.

    It could be that we're seeing the phone mostly exposed and to some, the connector could look like there's something missing.

    Moto needs to show this phone off with the connectors exposed so people know what they are. But when these things hit the market, I doubt anyone is going to use the phone without at least a Style Shell, and it's rumored to ship with one.

    Posted via the Android Central App on the Moto X Pure Edition
    06-12-2016 07:03 PM
  23. MazoMark's Avatar
    Right?!

    Make it a circle and they're copying Apple. Rectangle with rounded corners and they're copying Samsung.
    Well, I guess trapezoids and octagons are still available!
    06-13-2016 11:34 AM
  24. Clocks's Avatar
    Well, I guess trapezoids and octagons are still available!
    And rainbows, and unicorns.

    Confessions of a Motorola Fangirl: The Honeymoon is Over-download.jpg
    Ry likes this.
    06-13-2016 11:36 AM
  25. Ry's Avatar
    Well, I guess trapezoids and octagons are still available!
    I would prefer a circle, heck draw the Motorola batwing logo inside and ditch the "moto" text on the front.

    Posted via the Android Central App on the Moto X Pure Edition
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    06-13-2016 11:41 AM
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