06-30-2015 12:52 PM
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  1. tdizzel's Avatar
    The Sony Z3 is a flagship. The Z3v is a minor variant and *not* a flagship.
    So Sony and Verizon hold a big event. In New York. Invite all sorts of tech and media types. The event was specifically to announce and launch the z3v for Verizon, but it's not a flagship? Riiiiiiight. If that's the case, then there really are no flagships by any OEMs.
    06-24-2015 05:05 PM
  2. doogald's Avatar
    So Sony and Verizon hold a big event. In New York. Invite all sorts of tech and media types. The event was specifically to announce and launch the z3v for Verizon, but it's not a flagship? Riiiiiiight. If that's the case, then there really are no flagships by any OEMs.
    The Samsung Galaxy S6/S6 Edge and Note 4 are samsung's current flagships. The HTC One M9 is a flagship. The LG G4 is a flagship, and the G Flex 2 *might* be (I'd argue that it's not). The Moto X is a flagship. The Sony Experia Z3 is a flagship (I believe it's about to be superceded by the Z4). The iPhone 6 and 6 Plus are flagships.

    Those are flagships. Making a special phone for one carrier is not a flagship. OEMs have flagships, carriers do not.

    Here is Sony's Android device page. Smartphones: Compare and review unlocked and Android Xperia smartphone mobile phone technology - Sony US

    You see your flagship there?
    06-24-2015 05:13 PM
  3. Almeuit's Avatar
    I think at a certain point you have ask yourself if it's ever going to come out, it's a matter of if, not when. The CLIQ XT customers had to come to that realization. As I said it's best for a company to say very little and string customers along for as long as possible so they move on. It becomes less of a news story (bad publicity) when it's about an old phone that they don't sell anymore. And legally it's less costly to deal with.
    That is your opinion and you're entitled to it -- legally though they didn't do a bait and switch (a.k.a promising Lollipop) to users to get them to buy the Turbo. They were simply trying to let everyone know they're working on it .. Sadly .. Like with any other software there were some bugs that caused some delay.
    06-24-2015 05:22 PM
  4. tdizzel's Avatar
    The Samsung Galaxy S6/S6 Edge and Note 4 are samsung's current flagships. The HTC One M9 is a flagship. The LG G4 is a flagship, and the G Flex 2 *might* be (I'd argue that it's not). The Moto X is a flagship. The Sony Experia Z3 is a flagship (I believe it's about to be superceded by the Z4). The iPhone 6 and 6 Plus are flagships.

    Those are flagships. Making a special phone for one carrier is not a flagship. OEMs have flagships, carriers do not.

    Here is Sony's Android device page. Smartphones: Compare and review unlocked and Android Xperia smartphone mobile phone technology - Sony US

    You see your flagship there?
    Link appears to be broken.
    You can't possibly believe OEMs don't make carrier specific Flagships. If you do you must have only been following Android for about 2 weeks. They've been doing it since forever. My first android phone was the Motorola Droid which was a flagship that was specifically made for Verizon. That has continued on to the Droid Turbo, with dozens of phones by numerous OEMs made specifically for a single carrier in between. It's not done as much now, but it's definitely still done. To say otherwise is just wrong. the Z3v is the Flagship phone that Sony made for Verizon.
    Now if they had released the regular Z3 on Verizon and then released a lower spec'd Z3v, then I'd agree that it's not a flagship. But that's not the case. It absolutely is a Flagship by most accounts and definitions.

    And since we're on Android Central debating this:

    This week's sidebar poll: Best Android flagship — Note 4 or Droid Turbo? | Android Central

    Referring to the Droid Turbo, which is a special phone for one carrier, as a flagship.
    06-24-2015 05:42 PM
  5. Aquila's Avatar
    This thread is pretty awesome - it has gone 75 pages for 100% of posts to not answer the question - since no one that is not at the table with Verizon and Motorola can possibly know what the stakeholders probably still don't know today. They could make an educated guess; but all that anyone else can say is, "no information has been released save that they are working hard at it and trying to overcome some issues". One has to admire the ardor with which this statement has been folded.
    GeodudeFFP likes this.
    06-24-2015 06:06 PM
  6. vzwuser76's Avatar
    First, anything said about the Turbo before release is not official, it was rumor. Nothing was official until the day of release. Around the time of release, they mentioned that it would be upgradeable to LP. By itself the only way anyone could even think of suing is if the Turbo gets EOLed before it sees LP. With no specific date given, they only have to get the update out before support is ended to meet their statement.

    I want LP as well, though for me it's curiosity to see how far off of AOSP the Turbo's build will be. I understand that some are having issues on KK, but those affected appear to be random and in the minority. My device works fine the way it is, and I know some here are saying that waiting longer won't ensure a more stable build. That is not necessarily true. A rushed update will have more issues than one that they take their time on it, that's just common sense. Sure they may get lucky and rush an update and have a minimal amount of bugs, but luck runs out. What if they had pushed a build out earlier for either 5.0.2 or 5.1 because people were screaming for it and then it ended up causing a support nightmare? Again I want the update as well, maybe not as much as some of you, but since there is apparently a rather serious issue so far, I would prefer they concentrate on fixing the issue rather than pushing the update so they can say they did and screwing up my device.

    Regardless, what is a lawsuit going to get you? You want money, a new device, both? History has shown that any winnings from such a suit will be negligible, look at Apple's solution for their grip of death scandal. They sent out rubber bumpers that most likely cost them less than a dollar each, and that's from the wealthiest company on the planet. In the majority of these suits, the compensation awarded to the plaintiffs ends up being less than what they put into it. You would also have to show that either you were harmed by their actions or that they willfully misled you. If they didn't think they were going to be able to do what they said and did it anyway, they open themselves up to litigation, and they aren't going to risk that. I seriously can't see how people can't understand that it's possible that they didn't believe that they would have as much trouble as they have. There are plenty of times I went to repair something in my former job and it proved to be a much more involved process to resolve than I originally thought. When it happens, the only thing you can do is put your head down and keep plugging away at it until you resolve the issue, which is what they're doing now. And giving a timeframe for the fix when you have no earthly idea how long it will take is irresponsible. All it does is shut people up until the date arrives and then you have to explain why you couldn't fulfill your promise. How is that more professional than saying "we're working on it"? At least there you're not outright lying to the customers. Unless you can say with certainty how long it will take to fix the issue, it's better to say you don't know but that you are working on it. Otherwise you're just saying what they want to hear to get them off your backs when you know full well you aren't going to meet that deadline.
    06-24-2015 06:12 PM
  7. vzwuser76's Avatar
    When I started reading today's posts I started to think I ended up a few pages back. It seems like every few pages is just a copy and paste of the previous pages.
    mrtonk likes this.
    06-24-2015 06:14 PM
  8. Aquila's Avatar
    When I started reading today's posts I started to think I ended up a few pages back. It seems like every few pages is just a copy and paste of the previous pages.
    If folks aren't reading it all, that's likely to happen. At this length, it is a safe bet that very few are reading.
    06-24-2015 06:15 PM
  9. Davidoo's Avatar
    If there is no update, what should they say?

    They've never given dates. We've seen it bite HTC and OnePlus in recent memory.



    By saying fix, you're implying that there is something broken. For the most part, everyone who doesn't care about updates seems generally happy with KitKat.



    With all due respect, it seems like you have no idea on how Android OS upgrades and carrier test labs work.

    From what I learned with the DROID RAZR/DROID Bionic updates and Verizon, when a device gets into the carrier labs, one thing going wrong can and will reset testing. The carrier will halt testing without testing anything else and the build goes back to the OEM. Very inefficient.
    If there is no update they should just come clean and say they can't update it. I fail to understand why some of you think there is a problem with the company just telling the truth. Coming out with comments like David Schuster did on the 11th saying it is in the "lab" and going well tells the customer nothing! When a corporation tells you all is going well you should be worried.

    Just because they never give dates doesn't mean it is right. And some do give dates. Microsoft is telling the world that they are putting out a new OS free to download on July 29th that will run on perhaps billions of computers.

    Also, there are a lot of people on this forum that need a "fix" because their AC doesn't work, WiFi has connection and holding a connection problems, calls that don't make a ringing sound while waiting for the other party to answer, which according to the release notes published for 5.1 on another moto device may get fixed by the update. Is it OK for people to pay full price for things they could fix just because they simply haven't gotten around to it yet and how dare you ask when it will get fixed?

    It is an accurate statement that I don't know how their test labs work. That statement seems a bit arrogant. Is updating an OS on a smartphone is just so darn complicated and almost impossible to do that it really takes 9 months to do it, and how dare we even ask questions about it because us non-code writing idiots couldn't possibly understand? We all have our opinions and I respect yours. I'm still going with the theory that they can't update it due to some flaw, and they are just not going to tell us and keep stringing everyone along so eventually people give up and move on to something else.
    06-24-2015 06:28 PM
  10. Davidoo's Avatar
    Those who need to know, know.
    Wouldn't customers who are paying the bills need to know? Why is it such a secret? It is called customer service. I can tell you have never worked anywhere where you actually had to deal with customers directly and meet goals and deadlines.
    bafrench likes this.
    06-24-2015 06:33 PM
  11. philly's Avatar
    I have to respectfully disagree with you on this, Ry. I see no transparency here at all. And I don't consider "we're working on it" or "soon" to be valid updates and are in fact a slap in the face to customers. I guess I also don't grasp why there are no timetables or dates given for updates? Why not? Do they really have no idea?

    I'm repeating what I've said before, but I know of no other business that can give these vague answers and have people with products that don't work as intended and they basically just tell you it's too bad, we'll fix it "soon."

    I would just say that although we were never "promised" an update by a certain date, the Turbo was clearly sold proudly and boldly stating in all the advertising that it was upgradeable to lollipop. To those of you who think that waiting for said update going on 9 months now is reasonable, with no real communications as to when it will be updated, I submit that you have no idea what good customer service looks like.
    before I bought the turbo I went and verified that it did indeed saying something about upgrading to lollipop and it did. And here we are almost july, coming up on a year in a few months lol. This isn't 2012. Upgrades are flying left and right, different phones have gotten multiple lollipop updates in this timeframe, yet the droid turbo still hasn't got a single one. I do think kitkat works fine but I am expecting a lollipop droid turbo build by now that works fine also. I don't think they have put any urgency on it at all, no offense to the apologists in these threads, but they are the kind of people keeping helping to keep the heat off of verizon and motorola for letting this slip this late.
    06-24-2015 06:34 PM
  12. mimsiesboy's Avatar
    OK fess up, how many verizon reps on here defending the big red machine?

    Posted via the dell
    Davidoo and deesugar like this.
    06-24-2015 06:37 PM
  13. Aquila's Avatar
    s updating an OS on a smartphone is just so darn complicated and almost impossible to do that it really takes 9 months to do it, and how dare we even ask questions about it because us non-code writing idiots couldn't possibly understand?
    They haven't been working on 5.1 for 9 months. It's been like 3? Unfortunately, that resets the clock. 5.0 was scrapped after approx 6 months, either because it was too difficult or because 5.1 would be a better experience. Either way, asking questions is fine - but Motorola (and most OEMs) have never given dates and KEPT to them. Most don't give dates at all, and those that do often fail to meet that deadline. Giving a deadline when the carrier is in control is a horrible idea.


    Just because they never give dates doesn't mean it is right. And some do give dates. Microsoft is telling the world that they are putting out a new OS free to download on July 29th that will run on perhaps billions of computers.
    Microsoft is making their software available for download on a specified date - and it has probably been ready for months. They aren't at the mercy of carriers and they're not an OEM (aside from Surface, and sorta kinda at that?) - Microsoft is akin Google in this example, in which case Lollipop was released on time and available for whoever wanted it on a Nexus. So Microsoft releasing software doesn't mean anything, unless you're going to forgive Verizon for the Turbo because Google did release Lollipop.
    06-24-2015 06:38 PM
  14. Aquila's Avatar
    Wouldn't customers who are paying the bills need to know? Why is it such a secret? It is called customer service. I can tell you have never worked anywhere where you actually had to deal with customers directly and meet goals and deadlines.
    In this relationship, Motorola's customer is Verizon. Their customer is also you, but in a much more tertiary capacity. Verizon holds all the cards on whether or not they get to push an update to you.
    06-24-2015 06:39 PM
  15. Aquila's Avatar
    before I bought the turbo I went and verified that it did indeed saying something about upgrading to lollipop and it did. And here we are almost july, coming up on a year in a few months lol. This isn't 2012. Upgrades are flying left and right, different phones have gotten multiple lollipop updates in this timeframe, yet the droid turbo still hasn't got a single one. I do think kitkat works fine but I am expecting a lollipop droid turbo build by now that works fine also. I don't think they have put any urgency on it at all, no offense to the apologists in these threads, but they are the kind of people keeping helping to keep the heat off of verizon and motorola for letting this slip this late.
    I think we can all acknowledge that it sucks for those that are waiting that 5.0 was abandoned in favor of 5.1. I don't see anyone arguing against that. What I see is people saying that most people don't care and that neither Verizon nor Motorola are doing anything differently with this device than what they do with any other devices. It's about perspective and scale - not trivializing your frustrations; merely pointing out that all of this is business as usual for both companies (and all other associated companies sans Google's Nexus devices). Does business as usual suck if you're really wanting the latest software on non-stock devices? Yep.

    Let's keep in mind the Turbo is probably Moto's least popular device and that Verizon is one of the most scrutinizing customers they serve. Those two factors do not bode well for the overall update longevity nor the speed of any updates that are granted. Getting your lowest priority item through the highest of hoops is always going to take a back burner to more important and/or easier projects. That doesn't mean it won't get done, it just means sometimes other things are going to cut in line.
    06-24-2015 06:42 PM
  16. Ry's Avatar
    If there is no update they should just come clean and say they can't update it. I fail to understand why some of you think there is a problem with the company just telling the truth. Coming out with comments like David Schuster did on the 11th saying it is in the "lab" and going well tells the customer nothing! When a corporation tells you all is going well you should be worried.
    By update, I mean no new news. They've been saying the same thing for the other devices and the Moto X, Moto G, and Moto E have all been getting Lollipop with 5.1 coming out recently. What makes you believe that there is anything different going on with the TURBO?

    Just because they never give dates doesn't mean it is right. And some do give dates. Microsoft is telling the world that they are putting out a new OS free to download on July 29th that will run on perhaps billions of computers.
    I'm talking specifically to Android OS updates. Samsung doesn't give dates. HTC and OnePlus have given dates in the past and they both got bit by not being able to hit them.

    Also, there are a lot of people on this forum that need a "fix" because their AC doesn't work, WiFi has connection and holding a connection problems, calls that don't make a ringing sound while waiting for the other party to answer, which according to the release notes published for 5.1 on another moto device may get fixed by the update. Is it OK for people to pay full price for things they could fix just because they simply haven't gotten around to it yet and how dare you ask when it will get fixed?
    A Risk Analysis of the bug would help determine how fast it gets fixed. 5.0 Lollipop alone wouldn't have fixed the issue. 5.1 may fix it.

    It is an accurate statement that I don't know how their test labs work. That statement seems a bit arrogant. Is updating an OS on a smartphone is just so darn complicated and almost impossible to do that it really takes 9 months to do it, and how dare we even ask questions about it because us non-code writing idiots couldn't possibly understand? We all have our opinions and I respect yours. I'm still going with the theory that they can't update it due to some flaw, and they are just not going to tell us and keep stringing everyone along so eventually people give up and move on to something else.
    I dealt with the Verizon process on this very forum when I was following DROID BIONIC and DROID RAZR updates. Also, it's not that the update would be complicated but I think it's naive to think that it's as simple as you make it to be. And again, looking at how Motorola has rolled out Lollipop 5.0 and 5.1 updates to their other devices, namely both generations of Moto X, Moto G, and Moto E, it's clear that the DROID TURBO is lower in priority. Not sure how much Motorola has expanded since they had to be saved by Google then sold to Lenovo but the size of the team writing and testing OS updates probably hasn't expanded all that much.

    Heck. Again. The Verizon variant of the Motorola Moto E for their PREPAID service got an update from 5.0 to 5.1. The second gen Moto X has 5.1 rolling out. The Nexus 6 has 5.1. We've seen Motorola do 5.1 for low-end devices (Moto E). We've seen Motorola do 5.1 for mid-range devices (Moto G). They've done it with similar hardware to the TURBO in the Moto X and Nexus 6. And if I read things right, the DROID TURBO's international variant, the Moto Maxx, has 5.0 on it already.

    Motorola is working on the update and have been keeping people up to date through various social media channels.
    06-24-2015 06:46 PM
  17. Ry's Avatar
    Wouldn't customers who are paying the bills need to know? Why is it such a secret? It is called customer service. I can tell you have never worked anywhere where you actually had to deal with customers directly and meet goals and deadlines.
    I'm a project manager for a large (45K employees) company that deals with medical devices and medication management for hospitals. The software and hardware products I manage deal directly with the distribution of medication to from the loading dock all the way through being administered to a patient. I know goals and deadlines.

    As stated by others, Motorola's customer is Verizon.
    Aquila likes this.
    06-24-2015 06:50 PM
  18. tdizzel's Avatar
    If there is no update they should just come clean and say they can't update it. I fail to understand why some of you think there is a problem with the company just telling the truth. Coming out with comments like David Schuster did on the 11th saying it is in the "lab" and going well tells the customer nothing! When a corporation tells you all is going well you should be worried.

    Just because they never give dates doesn't mean it is right. And some do give dates. Microsoft is telling the world that they are putting out a new OS free to download on July 29th that will run on perhaps billions of computers.

    Also, there are a lot of people on this forum that need a "fix" because their AC doesn't work, WiFi has connection and holding a connection problems, calls that don't make a ringing sound while waiting for the other party to answer, which according to the release notes published for 5.1 on another moto device may get fixed by the update. Is it OK for people to pay full price for things they could fix just because they simply haven't gotten around to it yet and how dare you ask when it will get fixed?

    It is an accurate statement that I don't know how their test labs work. That statement seems a bit arrogant. Is updating an OS on a smartphone is just so darn complicated and almost impossible to do that it really takes 9 months to do it, and how dare we even ask questions about it because us non-code writing idiots couldn't possibly understand? We all have our opinions and I respect yours. I'm still going with the theory that they can't update it due to some flaw, and they are just not going to tell us and keep stringing everyone along so eventually people give up and move on to something else.
    Wouldn't customers who are paying the bills need to know? Why is it such a secret? It is called customer service. I can tell you have never worked anywhere where you actually had to deal with customers directly and meet goals and deadlines.

    Again with complaining about them saying that its in the lab and that not telling the customer anything? Myself and at least one other person here have explained to you exactly what it means, you just don't seem to want to listen for some reason. Maybe you just like to complain, I don't know.
    And it is absolutely right for them to not give us a date, because they have no way of knowing the date it will be ready. Myself and others have also explained this to you multiple times but, again, you don't seem to want to listen.
    And you keep talking about them missing deadlines. What exactly are their deadlines? Not some date that David Ruddock posted on G+ and Twitter(and then changed but nobody seems to want to mention that) that he got from some overseas contact(his admission) that he refused to post on the blog that he works at(for reasons he wouldn't say, but likely because he knew there was a low likeliness of it being correct) but the deadlines that Verizon and moto set for updating the Turbo. If you can't with 100% knowledge and accuracy state the goal, then any statement you make about them missing goals and deadlines is completely meaningless. And anyone who has significant experience in customer service will tell you that just because a customer wants to know something, it doesn't mean you should tell them.
    We get it. You're upset that you don't have lollipop on your phone. You are totally, completely and absolutely well within your right to be upset about that. But please,try to at least listen to what people are saying before you decide that you are just going to ccomplain.
    06-24-2015 06:55 PM
  19. Davidoo's Avatar
    Link appears to be broken.
    You can't possibly believe OEMs don't make carrier specific Flagships. If you do you must have only been following Android for about 2 weeks. They've been doing it since forever. My first android phone was the Motorola Droid which was a flagship that was specifically made for Verizon. That has continued on to the Droid Turbo, with dozens of phones by numerous OEMs made specifically for a single carrier in between. It's not done as much now, but it's definitely still done. To say otherwise is just wrong. the Z3v is the Flagship phone that Sony made for Verizon.
    Now if they had released the regular Z3 on Verizon and then released a lower spec'd Z3v, then I'd agree that it's not a flagship. But that's not the case. It absolutely is a Flagship by most accounts and definitions.

    And since we're on Android Central debating this:

    This week's sidebar poll: Best Android flagship — Note 4 or Droid Turbo? | Android Central

    Referring to the Droid Turbo, which is a special phone for one carrier, as a flagship.
    Just fell out of my chair looking at the article from our very own Android Central that tdizzel posted. Here a great quote from it. Gotta love it...with "the promise of fast (very freaking fast) updates." If this is considered "freaking fast" I would hate to see slow!

    "Motorola isn't taking this lying down, and they have released a beast of their own in the Droid Turbo. So far it's only available on Verizon here in the US, but we're thinking that will change. While it has no S Pen, it does have the specs and one important thing — the promise of fast (read: very freaking fast) updates."
    philly and quantum tao like this.
    06-24-2015 06:57 PM
  20. Davidoo's Avatar
    My apologies to you Ry and tdizzel. I know my last few posts have seemed like just complaining for complaining sake. I have read and followed many of your posts and appreciate your input. I know many keep telling me this is usual procedure along with "Verizon is Motorola's customer." It just seems the real customers who are paying their bills are the least informed. I'm taking a break from this for a while (ok, at least a couple of hours) as sometimes I need to keep in perspective the important things in life as I tend to get wrapped up in some of these non-important things too much, and I should know better.
    06-24-2015 07:05 PM
  21. tdizzel's Avatar
    Just fell out of my chair looking at the article from our very own Android Central that tdizzel posted. Here a great quote from it. Gotta love it...with "the promise of fast (very freaking fast) updates." If this is considered "freaking fast" I would hate to see slow!

    "Motorola isn't taking this lying down, and they have released a beast of their own in the Droid Turbo. So far it's only available on Verizon here in the US, but we're thinking that will change. While it has no S Pen, it does have the specs and one important thing — the promise of fast (read: very freaking fast) updates."
    I can't vouch for the commenters lol. I read some of them when I posted that and it made me smile a little.
    06-24-2015 07:11 PM
  22. tdizzel's Avatar
    My apologies to you Ry and tdizzel. I know my last few posts have seemed like just complaining for complaining sake. I have read and followed many of your posts and appreciate your input. I know many keep telling me this is usual procedure along with "Verizon is Motorola's customer." It just seems the real customers who are paying their bills are the least informed. I'm taking a break from this for a while (ok, at least a couple of hours) as sometimes I need to keep in perspective the important things in life as I tend to get wrapped up in some of these non-important things too much, and I should know better.
    No need to apologize. I'm in no hurry to get lollipop, but I completely understand your frustration with not having it. Just trying to calm you down a little so you're not so frustrated.
    Davidoo likes this.
    06-24-2015 07:12 PM
  23. vzwuser76's Avatar
    If there is no update they should just come clean and say they can't update it. I fail to understand why some of you think there is a problem with the company just telling the truth. Coming out with comments like David Schuster did on the 11th saying it is in the "lab" and going well tells the customer nothing! When a corporation tells you all is going well you should be worried.
    Who has said there is no update? There is an update, one that they are apparently having problems with getting to work well on the Turbo. Just because we don't have the update in our hands doesn't mean it doesn't exist. He said it's in the lab, if they are having issues and are working to correct them, what else should he say? When they work on these updates, they test them in labs at first, then test them out of the lab, then they have the carrier test and if they approve the update they issue a soak test to have non employees test it. If all that goes well, they push the OTA update to customers. Issues can arise anywhere during the chain, and in addition to that the carrier can request it be redone to either add or remove features or software. That presents a lot of opportunity for issues to arise.

    Maybe they were already having issues with LP on 5.0.2 and decided that 5.1 might solve them so they skipped 5.0.2 only to find 5.1 had as bad or worse of an issue. Add to that that they also have 2 generations of the Moto X, G, and E to update as well ahead of the Droid Turbo, and last year's Droids to update after it gets it. Considering the shakeup in management, there were probably also many tech positions consolidated or liquidated, so they may be working with less resources than they had under Google.
    06-24-2015 08:29 PM
  24. GeodudeFFP's Avatar
    I think WHENever the update comes, and WHATever version it is, we should all go out to dinner and celebrate! Until then, I'll enjoy the phone I have (XT1225 still running KK), and remember that everything I (and everyone who is NOT directly involved with producing the update) believe about the update is, in reality, nothing more than speculation. Let's enjoy summer...but OK, I'll confess that I'll keep reading this thread, in part because it's quite entertaining, and because there is definitely some informative things interspersed in here.

    Posted via the Android Central App
    vzwuser76 and hub1 like this.
    06-24-2015 10:19 PM
  25. deesugar's Avatar
    This "update" with how long it's been taking, constantly changing statuses and the way Motorola communicates or doesn't communicate sounds more and more like every tech related thing that eventually turned into vaporware.

    There are always some people that want to continue drinking the Kool-Aid but I'm about ready to put my cup down and join reality.
    06-25-2015 02:18 AM
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