07-15-2014 12:26 PM
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  1. pappy53's Avatar
    That doesn't negate the fact that it helps millions who work every day including overtime to support their family and do the right thing without any other government assistance.

    I suppose he's not gaming the system any worse than the Romneys in this country who pay very little taxes on their massive wealth.


    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    At least they made the money to pay taxes on. And don't blame the rich, blame the tax laws. And I guarantee that anyone who acquired that kind of wealth would do the same thing, including you and me.
    Or do you think that only rich Republicans do it?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    04-08-2014 02:43 PM
  2. anon8126715's Avatar
    That doesn't negate the fact that it helps millions who work every day including overtime to support their family and do the right thing without any other government assistance.

    I suppose he's not gaming the system any worse than the Romneys in this country who pay very little taxes on their massive wealth.


    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    C'mon, if they can't have their straw man argument then what else are they to do, Jesus' work?!?! "Ain't nobody got time fo dat!"
    04-08-2014 08:24 PM
  3. pappy53's Avatar
    C'mon, if they can't have their straw man argument then what else are they to do, Jesus' work?!?! "Ain't nobody got time fo dat!"
    Could you explain that statement?
    04-08-2014 10:23 PM
  4. GadgetGator's Avatar
    Proof?
    Ah, so when you make a claim everyone is supposed to accept it as true and factual? You're the one that made the original claim, therefore you are the one who needs to back up the figures.

    Back to the original post, I disagree the most with point number four. I do believe you can multiple wealth by dividing it. That's what a stock split does. And if you give someone a leg up and they go on to do great things and build a business and employ lots of people, that money multiplies, does it not?

    Now as to the doom and gloom prediction that we cannot survive if these poor rich people have to give up some of their income, what is the alternative? Nothing affects the instability of a country more then huge disparities in income. Keep that up and the end result is poor people showing up at your mansion with pitchforks. Therefore their must be kept some sort of balance. And the poor must have a path to prosperity as well as a political voice. Once they start getting shut out of things you start running into problems.

    Posted via Android Central App
    msndrstood likes this.
    04-09-2014 02:57 AM
  5. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Back to the original post, I disagree the most with point number four. I do believe you can multiple wealth by dividing it.
    That's not what a split does. A stock split isn't much more than a numbers trick. If it's a two for one split, the number of shares double, but the value per share is cut in half. It makes it seem a better buy to lower investors, but it's not really as the net value of the company is unchanged. It's like being paid biweekly vs weekly. One gives you big checks, the other is more smaller ones, but it's all the same in the end.


    It may see an increase in share price after the initial split reduction, but it's mostly artificial due to the perceived value and doesn't amount to much. It's not like in the OP where money is divided and given to someone else that didn't earn it.
    04-09-2014 04:26 AM
  6. GadgetGator's Avatar
    That's not what a split does. A stock split isn't much more than a numbers trick. If it's a two for one split, the number of shares double, but the value per share is cut in half. It makes it seem a better buy to lower investors, but it's not really as the net value of the company is unchanged. It's like being paid biweekly vs weekly. One gives you big checks, the other is more smaller ones, but it's all the same in the end.


    It may see an increase in share price after the initial split reduction, but it's mostly artificial due to the perceived value and doesn't amount to much. It's not like in the OP where money is divided and given to someone else that didn't earn it.
    But your potential investment has room to grow in a way that it might not have if left at the original high value. True there is no guarantee of that, but any stock that gets to the point of splitting, is probably a secure stock.

    And likewise giving money to someone who didn't earn it can be a risky bet too. But what is the risk if you do not? And what potential payoffs out of the investment are being missed?

    Posted via Android Central App
    04-09-2014 10:39 AM
  7. Mooncatt's Avatar
    But your potential investment has room to grow in a way that it might not have if left at the original high value. True there is no guarantee of that, but any stock that gets to the point of splitting, is probably a secure stock.

    And likewise giving money to someone who didn't earn it can be a risky bet too. But what is the risk if you do not? And what potential payoffs out of the investment are being missed?
    Whether or not a stock split is just one thing to consider when investing in a company. Probably a pretty small one to the professionals since it's not changing the value of the company. Market trends, executive changes, past sales, future projections, expansion/retraction plans, and on and on are more valuable information for consideration. Those changes are what will cause a stock to grow, not dividing it and reducing the individual share value to offset it.

    But you're right it's very risky to give money to people. If you know someone personally and want to fund an idea with your own money, that's one thing. To do it large scale with other people's money with little or nothing to ask for in return is idiocy. I doubt the numbers are out there to say either way, but I would guess if you did that, more money would be lost to wasteful spending than if the producers kept it to reinvest in their companies. Sure, a few people may use it to better themselves, but that would be more than offset by the people that blow it all.
    04-09-2014 11:59 AM
  8. GadgetGator's Avatar
    Whether or not a stock split is just one thing to consider when investing in a company. Probably a pretty small one to the professionals since it's not changing the value of the company. Market trends, executive changes, past sales, future projections, expansion/retraction plans, and on and on are more valuable information for consideration. Those changes are what will cause a stock to grow, not dividing it and reducing the individual share value to offset it.

    But you're right it's very risky to give money to people. If you know someone personally and want to fund an idea with your own money, that's one thing. To do it large scale with other people's money with little or nothing to ask for in return is idiocy. I doubt the numbers are out there to say either way, but I would guess if you did that, more money would be lost to wasteful spending than if the producers kept it to reinvest in their companies. Sure, a few people may use it to better themselves, but that would be more than offset by the people that blow it all.
    So then what should be done for poorer folk? Nothing? Should we just let all the net worth of the country end up in fewer and fewer hands as is the situation now? I see the complaints about the poor, but I don't hear any solutions from anyone. It's rather ironic that so many who are not rich run to defend and protect the wealthy. I've never understood that. I'm not saying that the store should be given away, but there has to be a balance. Even the poor in a country such as the US should be able to eat. And there should be a path for them. In other words, it shouldn't be hopeless.

    Posted via Android Central App
    msndrstood likes this.
    04-09-2014 02:33 PM
  9. msndrstood's Avatar
    So then what should be done for poorer folk? Nothing? Should we just let all the net worth of the country end up in fewer and fewer hands as is the situation now? I see the complaints about the poor, but I don't hear any solutions from anyone. It's rather ironic that so many who are not rich run to defend and protect the wealthy. I've never understood that. I'm not saying that the store should be given away, but there has to be a balance. Even the poor in a country such as the US should be able to eat. And there should be a path for them. In other words, it shouldn't be hopeless.

    Posted via Android Central App
    This. Yes. Well said. 👍😊

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    04-09-2014 03:05 PM
  10. Mooncatt's Avatar
    So then what should be done for poorer folk? Nothing? Should we just let all the net worth of the country end up in fewer and fewer hands as is the situation now? I see the complaints about the poor, but I don't hear any solutions from anyone. It's rather ironic that so many who are not rich run to defend and protect the wealthy. I've never understood that. I'm not saying that the store should be given away, but there has to be a balance. Even the poor in a country such as the US should be able to eat. And there should be a path for them. In other words, it shouldn't be hopeless.
    I still think a lot of the problem is the lack of work ethic in this country, but I do understand that isn't the only issue and some people truly need help. As I've said before, I'm not against all welfare, but the waste is no secret and little is done to fix it. I've also addressed the issue in another thread of the lack of graduated funding programs that cut back as you earn more instead of cutting off and encouraging people to stay on them. I've also addressed how the Fair Tax proposal could greatly increase job demand and thus wages (don't worry, I'm not gonna dig into that again right now).

    I can't speak for others, but I haven't just been complaining with no offers of solutions.
    msndrstood likes this.
    04-09-2014 03:47 PM
  11. anon8126715's Avatar
    Could you explain that statement?

    Straw man argument is when you find a very bad example of someone cheating the welfare system and use it to try to insist that it's a widespread issue. Instead of trying to spread the word of Christ, if you identify yourself as a Christian. Although, as I said it before, I doubt you follow that religion because it doesn't seem Christian-like to have such angst towards the poor.
    04-09-2014 10:34 PM
  12. Serial Fordicator's Avatar
    Straw man argument is when you find a very bad example of someone cheating the welfare system and use it to try to insist that it's a widespread issue. Instead of trying to spread the word of Christ, if you identify yourself as a Christian. Although, as I said it before, I doubt you follow that religion because it doesn't seem Christian-like to have such angst towards the poor.
    Couldn't one say the same in reverse? A few rich people have taken advantage but now it's a widespread issue? While I can't speak for everyone, I will say I've seen alot more of the poor cheat the system than the rich. Now I'm also not saying that rich shouldn't have to pay something, but the biggest problem within the poor of this country is obesity. Now am I saying all poor people are obese? No. But there are problems with both sides that need to be addressed. A fair tax addresses these problems well.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    04-09-2014 11:18 PM
  13. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    Couldn't one say the same in reverse? A few rich people have taken advantage but now it's a widespread issue? While I can't speak for everyone, I will say I've seen alot more of the poor cheat the system than the rich. Now I'm also not saying that rich shouldn't have to pay something, but the biggest problem within the poor of this country is obesity. Now am I saying all poor people are obese? No. But there are problems with both sides that need to be addressed. A fair tax addresses these problems well.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    Wouldn't the biggest problem actually be a lack of income?

    Let's assume you're correct though. How does a fair tax system help with obesity?

    Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk
    04-10-2014 03:38 AM
  14. Serial Fordicator's Avatar
    It doesn't. I'm just constantly hearing that poor people in America will starve. Why twist what I say? This is about the poor vs the rich and who is screwing the system.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ



    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    04-10-2014 03:53 AM
  15. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    It doesn't. I'm just constantly hearing that poor people in America will starve.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    Well.... If they really don't have money or another means to get food isn't starvation a concern then? Not for all, but for some?

    Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk
    04-10-2014 03:53 AM
  16. Serial Fordicator's Avatar
    Well.... If they really don't have money or another means to get food isn't starvation a concern then? Not for all, but for some?

    Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk
    That's what I was talking about. We are debating who is screwing the system more the rich vs the poor. Read all of what I said don't take one sentence out of context.
    I brought up that the general concern of the poor in this country is obesity. There are way too many programs in this country to prevent people from starving Vs the rich are screwing everyone.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    04-10-2014 04:02 AM
  17. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    That's what I was talking about. We are debating who is screwing the system more the rich vs the poor. Read all of what I said don't take one sentence out of context.
    I brought up that the general concern of the poor in this country is obesity. There are way too many programs in this country to prevent people from starving Vs the rich are screwing everyone.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    Then go back and answer my first question to you please. You ignored it with your response to me.

    Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk
    04-10-2014 04:05 AM
  18. Serial Fordicator's Avatar
    Then go back and answer my first question to you please. You ignored it with your response to me.

    Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk
    Please elaborate on what question. There were 2 and I thought I anwered them, though it didn't pertain to what I said/meant.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    04-10-2014 04:52 AM
  19. anon8126715's Avatar
    Couldn't one say the same in reverse? A few rich people have taken advantage but now it's a widespread issue? While I can't speak for everyone, I will say I've seen alot more of the poor cheat the system than the rich. Now I'm also not saying that rich shouldn't have to pay something, but the biggest problem within the poor of this country is obesity. Now am I saying all poor people are obese? No. But there are problems with both sides that need to be addressed. A fair tax addresses these problems well.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    Exxon, BP, GE, and other large companies not paying any taxes, IMO should be more scrutinized than a poor person gaming they system just based on the sheer amount of money involved, a few thousand dollars vs several million dollars. They are both guilty, but for some reason some people have less tolerance for welfare scammers. I personally think it has to do with peoples' personal prejudices. When some people think of a welfare scammer, they have a certain image in their heads, and for some reason they quantify it as a bigger offense than when a company games the system.
    GadgetGator and msndrstood like this.
    04-10-2014 06:23 AM
  20. anon8126715's Avatar
    It doesn't. I'm just constantly hearing that poor people in America will starve.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    If you're poor and rely on food that doesn't have nutritious value, that's one form of starvation. Lets also remember that if you're poor and your meals come infrequently, when you do finally get something to eat, there's a good chance that you're going to overeat. Starvation isn't just about the quantity of food, but the quality of food.
    Evilguppy and GadgetGator like this.
    04-10-2014 06:26 AM
  21. Serial Fordicator's Avatar
    Exxon, BP, GE, and other large companies not paying any taxes, IMO should be more scrutinized than a poor person gaming they system just based on the sheer amount of money involved, a few thousand dollars vs several million dollars. They are both guilty, but for some reason some people have less tolerance for welfare scammers. I personally think it has to do with peoples' personal prejudices. When some people think of a welfare scammer, they have a certain image in their heads, and for some reason they quantify it as a bigger offense than when a company games the system.
    Ok, I'll explain it best as I can. I am mad that companies don't pay, I am more upset that someone is taking out and not putting anything in than someone not putting in and not taking anything out.

    Until the law changes, I wish no companies paid taxes but anyone, including the owners, get taxed for any dime paid to them out of that company so we can help keep companies from going out of country. This would also help some companies give more back to employees through profit sharing and bonuses.

    Care to elaborate on the prejudices and the images people have in their heads?

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    04-10-2014 06:34 AM
  22. GadgetGator's Avatar
    Couldn't one say the same in reverse? A few rich people have taken advantage but now it's a widespread issue? While I can't speak for everyone, I will say I've seen alot more of the poor cheat the system than the rich. Now I'm also not saying that rich shouldn't have to pay something, but the biggest problem within the poor of this country is obesity. Now am I saying all poor people are obese? No. But there are problems with both sides that need to be addressed. A fair tax addresses these problems well.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    Are you denying that the country's wealth is ending up in fewer hands? I like some of your ideas, but the majority of poor people are not slackers. Many of them work two and three jobs. Jobs that pay little. Jobs with no benefits like sick pay so they get set back even further. While fraud should be controlled you make it sound like the poor are living high on the hog. If pulling off scams was so lucrative, they wouldn't be poor.

    Meanwhile the wealthy shelter their money overseas just to pay less taxes which affects things far more adversely than any poor person gaming the system could. Yet there isn't much of a fuss made about that.

    Posted via Android Central App
    msndrstood likes this.
    04-10-2014 09:07 AM
  23. pappy53's Avatar
    Straw man argument is when you find a very bad example of someone cheating the welfare system and use it to try to insist that it's a widespread issue. Instead of trying to spread the word of Christ, if you identify yourself as a Christian. Although, as I said it before, I doubt you follow that religion because it doesn't seem Christian-like to have such angst towards the poor.
    If I personally know of 2 people in my small area, then chances are it is a widespread issue. Spreading the word of Christ has nothing to do with criticizing the government for encouraging people to stay on the welfare system. I have zero anger toward the poor, as by government standards I am borderline poor, but it is still wrong for a system to be set up for a example like I gave to be used.
    04-10-2014 09:28 AM
  24. Serial Fordicator's Avatar
    Are you denying that the country's wealth is ending up in fewer hands? I like some of your ideas, but the majority of poor people are not slackers. Many of them work two and three jobs. Jobs that pay little. Jobs with no benefits like sick pay so they get set back even further. While fraud should be controlled you make it sound like the poor are living high on the hog. If pulling off scams was so lucrative, they wouldn't be poor.

    Meanwhile the wealthy shelter their money overseas just to pay less taxes which affects things far more adversely than any poor person gaming the system could. Yet there isn't much of a fuss made about that.

    Posted via Android Central App
    Not all of the wealthy does that just like not all poor take advantage which we could probably all agree on. I really can't blame someone who's job is to manage money in the smartest place available to do so. As much as I pay in taxes, I'm trying to find a way I don't owe as much. Plus, alot of these rich people employ alot of people. I think we are all quick to point at the boogeyman when we don't know exactly what he does. I think it's used as a distraction to divide and conquer whether intentionally or more than likely unintentionally.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    04-10-2014 09:33 AM
  25. oz123's Avatar

    Meanwhile the wealthy shelter their money overseas just to pay less taxes which affects things far more adversely than any poor person gaming the system could. Yet there isn't much of a fuss made about that.

    Posted via Android Central App
    Not only are they not paying tax, the government is paying interest to them !

    Apple and Microsoft among US tech giants reaping interest payments on offshore cash | The Bureau of Investigative Journalism
    04-10-2014 10:11 AM
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