05-30-2013 10:38 PM
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  1. jdbii's Avatar
    There used to be a continuous draft -- at a guess I'd say this started with WWII, but I'm not an expert in such matters -- right up to about I want to say 1972, when Nixon eliminated it. And the reason? Take a look at the problems we had in Vietnam. Lots of people were there due to drafting, and actually also as an option for many petty criminals who could opt for military service in lieu of prison time. We as a nation learned our lesson that we're better off with a smaller military comprised of just those who want to be there, than any random person we might pluck off the street and force to be there.
    The draft wasn't universal back then but some kind of lottery. I'd defer to somebody who knew how it worked, but it seemed like the privileged got out and a higher proportion of of poor people and minorities ending up going to Vietnam. The biggest architects and advocates for invading Iraq were people who hadn't served in Vietnam or wiggled their way out. If everybody's children were in the military or had pending military service then there would be much more thought, debate, and public discourse on the merits of military action. When the US authorized invading Iraq there was something like 10 or 15 Members of Congress who had children serving in the military. I think it was just a few enlisted children and about a dozen officer children out of 535 voting members. The Halls of Congress were silent with a few notable exceptions like Senator Byrd.
    05-10-2013 11:18 AM
  2. Tall Mike 2145's Avatar
    jdbii: Yes, you're absolutely right, I mis-spoke when I wrote what I previously had written. It was most definitely a lottery-based system.

    If they ever decide to re-institute that system or any other such system, I hope the public stands up and says no. Let them try and arrest everyone.
    05-10-2013 05:37 PM
  3. msndrstood's Avatar
    The Vietnam era draft was indeed a lottery. It continued until 1974, although no one was called up in 1973. My husband's number in 1974 was 001. He was never called up.

    What?! ...I'm msndrstood.
    via Gnex
    05-10-2013 06:33 PM
  4. jdbii's Avatar
    The Vietnam era draft was indeed a lottery. It continued until 1974, although no one was called up in 1973. My husband's number in 1974 was 001. He was never called up.

    What?! ...I'm msndrstood.
    via Gnex
    I think it was problematic since if you had money or connections there were ways to get out of it.
    05-10-2013 06:58 PM
  5. jusmebabe's Avatar
    Nothing like a pathetic person making excuses. If she wants to be a breeding machine fine just don't sign up for the military. Once she's out of prison she should get kicked out of this country and shipped back to Canada.
    Spit in her face on the way across the border. :beer:


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    05-10-2013 07:05 PM
  6. trix's Avatar
    Nothing like a pathetic person making excuses. If she wants to be a breeding machine fine just don't sign up for the military. Once she's out of prison she should get kicked out of this country and shipped back to Canada.
    Spit in her face on the way across the border. :beer:


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    Good posting, welcome to america. Where the jealous and envious make excuses for why they dont have what others work hard for.

    When I quit making excuses about anything in life I became far happier, healthier, and more successful.

    My favorite is when people blame the president. Ohhhhh, I'm a failure because Obama. Really? Cause he's everyone elses president and not everyone else is failing. Ohhh he took away my job? Really? Find a new career path...

    Or the best. "I'm fat because it runs in my family." No... you're fat because no one runs in your family.

    Love people that make excuses, just gives me that much more incentive to work harder and get ahead that much more.

    Hows that saying go? "The harder I work, the luckier I get."



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    jusmebabe likes this.
    05-10-2013 08:58 PM
  7. jusmebabe's Avatar
    Yea let's keep pushing out as many unhealthy fat kids so we can further strain our already busted health system.
    If your willing to be taxed again to pay for all this kids go for it, I'm not. How hard it it to wrap it up?

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    05-11-2013 11:25 AM
  8. Jennifer Stough's Avatar
    This thread isnt about fat kids, carbon footprints, or contraception methods. Can't we please try to stay on subject?

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    05-11-2013 07:40 PM
  9. ItnStln's Avatar
    The Halls of Congress were silent with a few notable exceptions like Senator Byrd.
    I must have missed this. What did Byrd do?
    05-19-2013 11:17 PM
  10. ItnStln's Avatar
    I've known so many teens that joined to get the signing bonus and didn't really want to serve. It's pretty sad actually.
    Just be thankful we're not "required" to serve for 4 years like many countries.

    tap'n
    Sometimes I think there should be a requirement to serve, like other countries have. And then I see people with no discipline, and realize they won't make it sixty seconds into boot camp.
    As a woman who served 9 years and deployed to Iraq if she wasn't pregnant but got pregnant to get out of deployment she should be punished. Not saying prison but when a female does that someone has to fill that slot and it sometimes ends up being someone who just came home. I've seen it a bunch of times. A girl i sorta knew in Germany always got pregnant every time her name came down on the deployment roster. She has 5 kids and counting. It wasnt right. I understand that sometimes the extra money and/or bonuses seem to good to pass up but you signed the dotted line and you know what that entails. I've seen so many people get mad at having to pay back bonuses as well. You get that bonus on the agreement that you will complete that time and contract. You break that contract you should pay it back.

    Sent from my GT-N8013 using Android Central Forums
    That's crazy...having kids to get out of a deployment? What will people think of next?
    I agree that there is a hero status that seems to be adopted by service members and eventually they do begin to believe it. That was an issue of mine with a few of the men my husband works with who lie about having certain metals or having served in a war when their boots never left ground.
    Really? None of the military people I know, nor my family members who are military do that. Before I went back to college, I worked as a DOD contractor. No one in the office that I worked in made up war stories, nor lied about their medals. Quite the opposite actually. If I want to hear a war story, I'd call one of several relatives on my father's (O-6) side, and talk to them. Now I'm wondering where I can hang out at to hear some of these fake war stories, but I'm sure that's just boredom talking.
    A few of the men he knows even wear a combat patch and have never been deployed,
    Isn't there a UCMJ article that covers this? It's been a while since I've had to know this stuff, but I don't think I'm wrong...
    Aquila likes this.
    05-19-2013 11:47 PM
  11. jdbii's Avatar
    05-20-2013 03:10 AM
  12. ItnStln's Avatar
    I don't remember seeing this, thanks! Although it really is hypocritical, as Senator Byrd did build a multi-million training center for the Guard outside of Morgantown.
    Aquila likes this.
    05-20-2013 06:26 PM
  13. jdbii's Avatar
    I don't remember seeing this, thanks! Although it really is hypocritical, as Senator Byrd did build a multi-million training center for the Guard outside of Morgantown.
    Doesn't surprise me at all -- Members of Congress are in the business of securing as much federal funding as they possibly can for projects back home. Byrd was far from perfect having once been in KKK, but back when Congress was debating the merits of passing the Iraq War Resolution in 2002, hypocritical or not, he was the only one I can remember who showed any real backbone opposing it.

    Sometimes I think there should be a requirement to serve, like other countries have. And then I see people with no discipline, and realize they won't make it sixty seconds into boot camp.
    I am a strong believer in having a universal draft primarily because I think we would be less likely to send our young women and men off to combat zones if everybody: a) had served themselves; and, b) had children actively serving, facing service, or serving reserve-duty. War shouldn't be an abstract aberration that the majority of people in society can choose to ignore if they want to, but rather something society faces collectively together. For those who wouldn't make it in boot camp, or conscientious objectors, there should be alternatives.
    05-20-2013 08:57 PM
  14. ItnStln's Avatar
    Doesn't surprise me at all -- Members of Congress are in the business of securing as much federal funding as they possibly can for projects back home. Byrd was far from perfect having once been in KKK, but back when Congress was debating the merits of passing the Iraq War Resolution in 2002, hypocritical or not, he was the only one I can remember who showed any real backbone opposing it.
    True, it's all about how much money they can get from the feds. See, I don't have a problem with his past as a member of the KKK. Unlike other politicians, he didn't lie about his past. Also, he fought for his state. His successor is, from what I hear, a joke. I just find it hypocritical that he wanted millions spent on a TRAINING center near Morgantown, but wanted to oppose the war. The training center is for what again?
    I am a strong believer in having a universal draft primarily because I think we would be less likely to send our young women and men off to combat zones if everybody: a) had served themselves; and, b) had children actively serving, facing service, or serving reserve-duty. War shouldn't be an abstract aberration that the majority of people in society can choose to ignore if they want to, but rather something society faces collectively together. For those who wouldn't make it in boot camp, or conscientious objectors, there should be alternatives.
    By draft do you mean mandatory military service? If so, then I agree with you. Also I do not think the draft should exclude women. They are just as capable of doing non-combat work as men. This, to me, is discriminatory and unfair. Sadly, I think those with political connections will "play" the universal draft, and get assigned non-combat positions. In my opinion, Germany has a great idea. Or at least it was when I lived there, I'm not sure how it is now. Either you go into the military, or you do other public service work. The public service work did range from picking up trash in the town square and larger cities, to doing the equivalent of state road work. I just thought of something though, if you wanted out of the universal draft, or mandatory service requirement, could one go catch a few criminal charges? I would NOT do this, but I'm sure that there's people who would want out of their commitment bad enough that they would.
    jdbii likes this.
    05-20-2013 09:27 PM
  15. Jennifer Stough's Avatar

    Really? None of the military people I know, nor my family members who are military do that. Before I went back to college, I worked as a DOD contractor. No one in the office that I worked in made up war stories, nor lied about their medals. Quite the opposite actually. If I want to hear a war story, I'd call one of several relatives on my father's (O-6) side, and talk to them. Now I'm wondering where I can hang out at to hear some of these fake war stories, but I'm sure that's just boredom talking.

    Isn't there a UCMJ article that covers this? It's been a while since I've had to know this stuff, but I don't think I'm wrong...
    There is an AR that covers lying about medals, or wearing medals you haven't earned. Not sure if combat patches fall under that category. But yes, I have heard many soliders bs war stories just for the attention. Hang out in an aggieville bar by fort riley on a weekend and you're sure to hear your fair share. Or any bar near a college near a military installation for that fact.


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    05-20-2013 09:39 PM
  16. jdbii's Avatar
    By draft do you mean mandatory military service?
    Yes, I meant mandatory military service.

    Also I do not think the draft should exclude women
    100 percent agree.

    Sadly, I think those with political connections will "play" the universal draft, and get assigned non-combat positions.
    Yes, it most certainly could not be like it was in Vietnam where the rich, privileged, and well-connected didn't get shipped off. It has to be equal and fair for everybody, rich and poor, etc. No selling your number to some poor kid, and no stateside desk job for Mark Zuckerberg, unless they had him programming the missiles from mission control somewhere.

    Either you go into the military, or you do other public service work.
    I support something like this too, but I don't know how Germany did it. I do know that Germany is moving away from mandatory military service and to a volunteer army. I think it is a mistake and I think one of the results will be Germany will start engaging in conflicts worldwide. It might be good for the world to have a rich country like Germany participating and paying their fair share, but I just don't believe there will be as much public debate about it since not everybody will face military service.

    I just thought of something though, if you wanted out of the universal draft, or mandatory service requirement, could one go catch a few criminal charges?
    There are always going to be scumbags who would do something like that. At least they get tagged early for what they are and they don't end up politicians are a head of a bank if they get a black mark like this. Easier said than done, and it gets hard to implement, but I do think there should be an out for conscientious objectors and people who couldn't physically handle the military.
    05-20-2013 10:07 PM
  17. MBM7881's Avatar
    Sometimes I think there should be a requirement to serve, like other countries have. And then I see people with no discipline, and realize they won't make it sixty seconds into boot camp.

    That's crazy...having kids to get out of a deployment? What will people think of next?

    Really? None of the military people I know, nor my family members who are military do that. Before I went back to college, I worked as a DOD contractor. No one in the office that I worked in made up war stories, nor lied about their medals. Quite the opposite actually. If I want to hear a war story, I'd call one of several relatives on my father's (O-6) side, and talk to them. Now I'm wondering where I can hang out at to hear some of these fake war stories, but I'm sure that's just boredom talking.

    Isn't there a UCMJ article that covers this? It's been a while since I've had to know this stuff, but I don't think I'm wrong...
    It may be AR 380-5. I could be wrong but this regulation covers falsifying documents and such so it may be covered under this one

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    05-20-2013 10:13 PM
  18. trix's Avatar
    There is an AR that covers lying about medals, or wearing medals you haven't earned. Not sure if combat patches fall under that category. But yes, I have heard many soliders bs war stories just for the attention. Hang out in an aggieville bar by fort riley on a weekend and you're sure to hear your fair share. Or any bar near a college near a military installation for that fact.


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    Im in Houston. Bar suggestions where I can hear some good war stories? Not much of a drinker though and I feel like I may need some to enjoy the stories.

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    05-20-2013 10:15 PM
  19. jdbii's Avatar
    Really? None of the military people I know, nor my family members who are military do that. Before I went back to college, I worked as a DOD contractor. No one in the office that I worked in made up war stories, nor lied about their medals. Quite the opposite actually. If I want to hear a war story, I'd call one of several relatives on my father's (O-6) side, and talk to them. Now I'm wondering where I can hang out at to hear some of these fake war stories, but I'm sure that's just boredom talking.
    I think there was a case just in front of the US Supreme Court that was about the constitutionality of a law the prohibited people from wearing fake ribbons. These aren't active duty soldiers, but rather civilians who would wear ribbons like in parades, and possibly (this I don't know) from misrepresenting and lying about military service. The Supreme Court struck down the law because it violated free speech. In other words, it is legal to lie about your military valor. Supreme Court Strikes Down Stolen Valor: You Can Lie About Military Service - ABC News My home state, Oregon, we had a Congressman falsely claim he was a special forces in the Korean War. Wes Cooley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
    05-20-2013 10:25 PM
  20. Jennifer Stough's Avatar
    Im in Houston. Bar suggestions where I can hear some good war stories? Not much of a drinker though and I feel like I may need some to enjoy the stories.

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    Sorry mate, I just moved to san Antonio from Kansas, I don't know TX from Adam.

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    05-20-2013 10:39 PM
  21. Jennifer Stough's Avatar
    I think there was a case just in front of the US Supreme Court that was about the constitutionality of a law the prohibited people from wearing fake ribbons. These aren't active duty soldiers, but rather civilians who would wear ribbons like in parades, and possibly (this I don't know) from misrepresenting and lying about military service. The Supreme Court struck down the law because it violated free speech. In other words, it is legal to lie about your military valor. Supreme Court Strikes Down Stolen Valor: You Can Lie About Military Service - ABC News My home state, Oregon, we had a Congressman falsely claim he was a special forces in the Korean War. Wes Cooley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
    It is legal for a civilian to impersonate a military member, but its illegal for a service member to lie about military valor.

    Just my two cents, its pretty messed up that its illegal to impersonate a officer of the law, but not a soldier.

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    jdbii likes this.
    05-20-2013 10:41 PM
  22. ItnStln's Avatar
    Yes, I meant mandatory military service.
    Okay, I thought soI was just making sure that I was understanding what youre saying.
    100 percent agree.
    Lets not say that too loud, wed be labeled as sexist!
    Yes, it most certainly could not be like it was in Vietnam where the rich, privileged, and well-connected didn't get shipped off. It has to be equal and fair for everybody, rich and poor, etc. No selling your number to some poor kid, and no stateside desk job for Mark Zuckerberg, unless they had him programming the missiles from mission control somewhere.
    Exactly, equal and fair. Sadly the well-connected people will still come out ahead. Also, I think those who volunteer for the military should have first choice for their job over the so-called draftees, who are going to do their time just to fill a square. As for your example about Mark Zuckerberg sitting behind his desk programming missiles from mission control, that is most likely the type of job that the well-connected would get. Because, chances are, they will never set foot in a combat zone.
    I support something like this too, but I don't know how Germany did it. I do know that Germany is moving away from mandatory military service and to a volunteer army. I think it is a mistake and I think one of the results will be Germany will start engaging in conflicts worldwide. It might be good for the world to have a rich country like Germany participating and paying their fair share, but I just don't believe there will be as much public debate about it since not everybody will face military service.
    In Germany, you either went into the military for I forget how many years, or you did other public service work. The public service work did range from picking up trash in the town square and larger cities, to doing the equivalent of state road work. I did not know that Germany was moving to an all-volunteer military. But that isnt surprising. Most European countries dont have large militaries because of the US presence there. Plus there is that clause in the NATO agreement that basically states that an attack on one member nation is to be considered an attack on all member nations. How did that work after 9/11 again?!
    There are always going to be scumbags who would do something like that. At least they get tagged early for what they are and they don't end up politicians are a head of a bank if they get a black mark like this. Easier said than done, and it gets hard to implement, but I do think there should be an out for conscientious objectors and people who couldn't physically handle the military.
    Theyll probably still end up as politicians. Look at Bill Clinton, who was a Vietnam draft dodger. Or John Kerry who lied about his military awards from Vietnam. But Id hope that pulling a stupid stunt to get out of your mandatory service would bar you from public office, from getting a security clearance, and from government employment. I say that the out for conscientious objectors would be something like Germany did/does. I believe that it was either a two year military service, or three or four years doing public service work. I will try and ask a friend who is living in Germany now if he knows.
    jdbii likes this.
    05-20-2013 10:46 PM
  23. jdbii's Avatar
    It is legal for a civilian to impersonate a military member, but its illegal for a service member to lie about military valor.

    Just my two cents, its pretty messed up that its illegal to impersonate a officer of the law, but not a soldier.

    Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Android Central Forums
    Agreed, that is pretty messed up. It might be because Police Officers have authority over civilians. They can pull over your car, redirect traffic, and most people most likely would open their front doors for the police. Civilians almost never come into contact with men and woman in military uniforms unless you live close to a military base, and the 4 years I was in the Navy I can't remember one time coming into contact with a civilian off base while I was in uniform. (Except my first liberty weekend after Basic). If somebody donned a uniform and attempted to detain somebody for questioning, or misrepresent themselves to take advantage of somebody, there would be some laws like "false imprisonment" or "kidnapping" that they would be subject to. I wonder if any law would be broken if an impersonator in a military uniform gained access to your house under false pretenses, but with your permission.
    Jennifer Stough likes this.
    05-20-2013 10:59 PM
  24. ItnStln's Avatar
    It is legal for a civilian to impersonate a military member, but its illegal for a service member to lie about military valor.

    Just my two cents, its pretty messed up that its illegal to impersonate a officer of the law, but not a soldier.

    Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Android Central Forums
    But it is: If you're subject to the UCMJ, then you are violating Article 134, which is "Impersonating a commissioned, warrant, noncommissioned, or petty officer, or an agent or official."
    The Federal Law is Title 10 U.S. Code Chapter 45 paragraph 771 which clearly states that this is illegal:
    "Except as otherwise provided by law, no person except a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, as the case may be, may wear
    (1) the uniform, or a distinctive part of the uniform, of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps; or
    (2) a uniform any part of which is similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps."

    As for the impersonating a law enforcement officer, don't you actually have to state that you are a LEO and not just dress like one? I remember from my first semester in college taking a law class that the professor who was a lawyer (now judge) said that you actually have to do more than dress the part and have the badge. This could be why when I got pulled over last summer the State Trooper, as soon as he got to my window, said "My name is Trooper [name] with the Maryland State Police." I don't know, I am just asking.
    05-20-2013 11:00 PM
  25. Jennifer Stough's Avatar
    But it is: If you're subject to the UCMJ, then you are violating Article 134, which is "Impersonating a commissioned, warrant, noncommissioned, or petty officer, or an agent or official."
    The Federal Law is Title 10 U.S. Code Chapter 45 paragraph 771 which clearly states that this is illegal:
    "Except as otherwise provided by law, no person except a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, as the case may be, may wear
    (1) the uniform, or a distinctive part of the uniform, of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps; or
    (2) a uniform any part of which is similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps."

    As for the impersonating a law enforcement officer, don't you actually have to state that you are a LEO and not just dress like one? I remember from my first semester in college taking a law class that the professor who was a lawyer (now judge) said that you actually have to do more than dress the part and have the badge. This could be why when I got pulled over last summer the State Trooper, as soon as he got to my window, said "My name is Trooper [name] with the Maryland State Police." I don't know, I am just asking.
    Perhaps I should have stated clearer, it is legal for a civilian to impersonate an NCO/senior officer or to lie regarding military valor. It is illegal for a service member to do so. As for your second question, I really do not know for certain.

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    05-20-2013 11:07 PM
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