05-30-2013 10:38 PM
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  1. Aquila's Avatar
    05-02-2013 02:22 AM
  2. Greg C's Avatar
    If she isn't willing to deploy then she shouldn't be in the military. Besides... pregnant women are non-deployable. I served 10 years so I know this.
    05-02-2013 03:29 AM
  3. Disturbed_Angel's Avatar
    The article seems to say that she is pregnant now, but wasn't when it occurred. But yeah, stay out of the fire if you can't stand the heat. Don't join the Military thinking you can just chill on a stateside post doing nothing the entire time while using all the benefits and not deploy. The USA has a volunteer Military, so she choose to sign up, and should of known what she was signing up for. I have seen too many people like this during my time, and have no pity for them at all, nor for the punishment they face.
    05-02-2013 04:42 AM
  4. Live2ride883's Avatar
    I read an article on this that stated she did not file herself as a conscientious objector until after the fact....

    You signed up for the military, not a girl scout troop. Go where they send you, do the job you are told to do as long as you are not given unlawful/unconstitutional orders shut up and carry on....
    Aquila likes this.
    05-02-2013 01:36 PM
  5. omniusovermind's Avatar
    Was she really needed though? I thought you guys had drones now...

    J/K
    05-02-2013 01:39 PM
  6. Jennifer Stough's Avatar
    Pregnant womenare moved to rear d, and are non deployable. If she was not pregnant at the time and is now, the title is extremely misleading. As for her going awol while on leave (was this just leave, or r&r?), I have personally seen people sent to ft. Leavenworth for more understandable circumstances. She needs a dishonorable discharge and to get the hell out of the military. My husband doesn't support the war in Iraq but he spent a year in the sand, missing his sons first birthday and our first anniversary. No one likes to deploy, but she volunteered to be a citizen soldier and it is in her job description. Heck, she had to quote the soldiers creed, and it plain as day says "I will always place the mission first" as well as "I stand ready to deploy, engage, and destroy, the enemies of the United States of America in close combat." If she was just on leave and knew she had orders to deploy and decided to flee, there were better ways to get out of the deployment. Ie, speaking to the chaplain about family issues, or mental issues. Still as dishonorable, but it would have saved her her freedom for 10 months. If she was on r&r and decided to flee the country, I'm disappointed that she didn't get more time. Way back when, going awol during war time was death. No one forced her to be a soldier, and there are always ways out. She is a disgrace to the united states army.

    Sent from my Verizon Droid DNA
    Aquila, Bratigan, Ry and 1 others like this.
    05-02-2013 02:17 PM
  7. Jennifer Stough's Avatar
    I see that she did speak to a chaplian after reading through the article (i skimmed through the first time) and regardless, there were other options for her. Did she not think of the meaning of war before she deployed, or did she just care about the money? Even if the chaplian did not offer her the advice she needed, she could have used the first sgts open door policy and took it up the chain of command.

    Sent from my Verizon Droid DNA
    Aquila likes this.
    05-02-2013 02:26 PM
  8. Aquila's Avatar
    I read an article on this that stated she did not file herself as a conscientious objector until after the fact....

    You signed up for the military, not a girl scout troop. Go where they send you, do the job you are told to do as long as you are not given unlawful/unconstitutional orders shut up and carry on....
    This might not be relevant because she apparently never decided to use it as a defense, but there are those that argue that the "war" in Iraq was unconstitutional... however that would have made her first tour illegal as well. Also, clearly in the minds of the existing chain of command at the time, it was perfectly legal.
    05-02-2013 03:25 PM
  9. Jennifer Stough's Avatar
    This might not be relevant because she apparently never decided to use it as a defense, but there are those that argue that the "war" in Iraq was unconstitutional... however that would have made her first tour illegal as well. Also, clearly in the minds of the existing chain of command at the time, it was perfectly legal.
    I just dont get why she chose the extreme measures she did. If she was on orders to Iraq (and the article makes it seem like she was serving in Iraq as a gate guard on the fob, and while on r&r, fled the country??), she could have spoken to numerous people, not only the chaplain, to have her sent back home if she was not combat ready as she was a threat to the mission. And if it was prior to a deployment, she could have got out legally for conflicting ideals. She would have lost her gi bill and had a general other than honorable discharge, but if she took the time to really talk to her COC they would have never sent her overseas and would have had her chaptered before the rest of the units boots left US soil.

    Sent from my Verizon Droid DNA
    05-02-2013 03:45 PM
  10. Aquila's Avatar
    I just dont get why she chose the extreme measures she did. If she was on orders to Iraq (and the article makes it seem like she was serving in Iraq as a gate guard on the fob, and while on r&r, fled the country??), she could have spoken to numerous people, not only the chaplain, to have her sent back home if she was not combat ready as she was a threat to the mission. And if it was prior to a deployment, she could have got out legally for conflicting ideals. She would have lost her gi bill and had a general other than honorable discharge, but if she took the time to really talk to her COC they would have never sent her overseas and would have had her chaptered before the rest of the units boots left US soil.

    Sent from my Verizon Droid DNA
    I agree, 100% handled incorrectly. Now, 5-6 years later with her family doubled in size and now pregnant again, is a prison term the right call?
    05-02-2013 03:51 PM
  11. Jennifer Stough's Avatar
    It sounds to me like she really didn't know how to stand up for herself and was looking for an easy out. Joining the army isnt some spur of the moment decision you make for a GI bill and health care. You need to consider what is expected of you and the consequences if you fail to deliver. She knew when she enlisted (and she was a PFC, two years in service, making her enlistment date in 2004.) That she was joining during a time of war and there was a very large chance that she would be sent to Iraq upon completion of bct and ait. She was also very aware of her job description upon signing that contract. Political opinions don't just appear out of no where, she knew from the get go what was going on over there and what her view on it was. I'm willing to bet that she only joined for the large enlistment bonuses that were being thrown around post 9-11, as well as the health care for her children and other benefits. And there is nothing wrong with that, as long as you hold up your end of the contract.

    Sent from my Verizon Droid DNA
    Aquila likes this.
    05-02-2013 03:53 PM
  12. Live2ride883's Avatar
    I agree, 100% handled incorrectly. Now, 5-6 years later with her family doubled in size and now pregnant again, is a prison term the right call?
    Absolutely, they have hospitals in prisons as well as Dr.'s. She can give birth in the hospital there just as easily as she can on the outside. He husband can bring the baby in during visiting hours.

    She knew what she signed up for, now she needs to pay the price for her actions. It's called personal responsibility, as far as I am concerned she is a deserter.
    Jennifer Stough likes this.
    05-02-2013 03:57 PM
  13. Aquila's Avatar
    It sounds to me like she really didn't know how to stand up for herself and was looking for an easy out. Joining the army isnt some spur of the moment decision you make for a GI bill and health care. You need to consider what is expected of you and the consequences if you fail to deliver. She knew when she enlisted (and she was a PFC, two years in service, making her enlistment date in 2004.) That she was joining during a time of war and there was a very large chance that she would be sent to Iraq upon completion of bct and ait. She was also very aware of her job description upon signing that contract. Political opinions don't just appear out of no where, she knew from the get go what was going on over there and what her view on it was. I'm willing to bet that she only joined for the large enlistment bonuses that were being thrown around post 9-11, as well as the health care for her children and other benefits. And there is nothing wrong with that, as long as you hold up your end of the contract.

    Sent from my Verizon Droid DNA
    I agree with all except the political views not changing. In 2003/2004 the majority of American's thought that Iraq had something to do with 9/11 and/or that Iraq was a danger to the US because of plans to invade, WMD's, or whatever. By 2007 a large number of people had realized that there were no reasons to go into Iraq at all and were clamoring for the end of our illegal occupation. I would see it as possible she was one of the people who "changed their mind" as they learned more about the situation. That being said, it doesn't excuse the acts she took or negate her responsibilities as a soldier. I'm not disagreeing about whether or not what she did was wrong at all.
    05-02-2013 03:58 PM
  14. Jennifer Stough's Avatar
    I agree with all except the political views not changing. In 2003/2004 the majority of American's thought that Iraq had something to do with 9/11 and/or that Iraq was a danger to the US because of plans to invade, WMD's, or whatever. By 2007 a large number of people had realized that there were no reasons to go into Iraq at all and were clamoring for the end of our illegal occupation. I would see it as possible she was one of the people who "changed their mind" as they learned more about the situation. That being said, it doesn't excuse the acts she took or negate her responsibilities as a soldier. I'm not disagreeing about whether or not what she did was wrong at all.
    Perhaps I should have used a different word than political opinion...her primary argument was that she couldn't point a gun at an Iraqi child and open fire. Not that the US presence in Iraq was wrong, but that she didn't have what it took to kill another person, let alone a child. Im the type of person who would think she'd have known before deployment whether or not she had what it took to pull the trigger.

    Sent from my Verizon Droid DNA
    Aquila likes this.
    05-02-2013 04:02 PM
  15. Aquila's Avatar
    Perhaps I should have used a different word than political opinion...her primary argument was that she couldn't point a gun at an Iraqi child and open fire. Not that the US presence in Iraq was wrong, but that she didn't have what it took to kill another person, let alone a child. Im the type of person who would think she'd have known before deployment whether or not she had what it took to pull the trigger.

    Sent from my Verizon Droid DNA
    There are also thousands of jobs that, were she able to articulate that and be qualified, she could perform without being in a situation such as that. Regardless, every soldier's first and foremost job is a soldier, with their MOS being of secondary concern. I would find it hard to believe, especially in a time when we didn't officially view women as being able to fight "on the front lines" that they couldn't find a better seat on the bus for her, were she to have asked.
    Jennifer Stough likes this.
    05-02-2013 04:06 PM
  16. Jennifer Stough's Avatar
    Absolutely, they have hospitals in prisons as well as Dr.'s. She can give birth in the hospital there just as easily as she can on the outside. He husband can bring the baby in during visiting hours.

    She knew what she signed up for, now she needs to pay the price for her actions. It's called personal responsibility, as far as I am concerned she is a deserter.
    This. I agree. My sister had her second child in prison and my neice is as healthy as can be. As for her husband having to provide for the children on his own while she serves her time, she hasn't been officially chaptered from the army yet, that will happen after she finishes her time. So she will still be making some (not alot) of money while incarcerated. She can still help out a little.

    Sent from my Verizon Droid DNA
    05-02-2013 04:08 PM
  17. Jennifer Stough's Avatar
    There are also thousands of jobs that, were she able to articulate that and be qualified, she could perform without being in a situation such as that. Regardless, every soldier's first and foremost job is a soldier, with their MOS being of secondary concern. I would find it hard to believe, especially in a time when we didn't officially view women as being able to fight "on the front lines" that they couldn't find a better seat on the bus for her, were she to have asked.
    I agree. She could have been a cook, or worked in finance, or been a fueler. Some of them may have required her to leave the wire, but many of them do not. I'm assuming she was most likely an MP.

    Sent from my Verizon Droid DNA
    Aquila likes this.
    05-02-2013 04:10 PM
  18. jdbii's Avatar
    I don't have anything to add that hasn't already been said but I missed this post.

    I think she got off easy. Ten months is a mere slap in the wrist for desertion. I think it was in fact desertion because she tried to emigrate to Canada and therefore had not intention of returning to service. I was happy to see that Canada denied her citizenship since she did volunteer for the US Army. She was an adult and only an ***** would not know that by enlisting they very likely would be deployed to a combat zone. Even if Iraq and Afghanistan were not going on, it is still an volunteer army and you train for war and you don't get to choose the wars you fight otherwise you put your comrades in danger.

    I don't have any sympathy for her being pregnant and going to prison other to say that it is a sad situation. So long as she gets the proper medical care then it is okay, but pregnant women commit crimes too, and as ugly as it is, they need to serve their time. Sorry to say this, and I am only speculating, but I wouldn't be all that surprised if she got pregnant on purpose hoping for leniency, and she might have gotten it with only a 10 month sentence.

    As to giving her a job in the rear, (rather than front line combat job), they might have already been doing that. I don't know, but the guard post she was assigned might have been heavily manned so there were other soldiers to cover her. I doubt her Sergeant or Lieutenant would have assigned her to some forward position or sent her out on patrol. In my opinion, this is kind of dicey and not fair to the other soldier who would have to cover for her. So she gets to stay on base where somebody else goes on patrol and gets exposed to all the dangers. It is hard for the Army to maintain operational readiness (sorry if I'm using the wrong term) and make special amends for soldiers who can't do their duty. By the sheer number of people in the Army there is always going to be Kimberly Rivera. I wonder how she got through Basic Training.

    The discussion about her, in the hypothetical, raising the defense of the war being illegal since there were no WMD's found or maybe because Congress never declared war, is no defense in my opinion. Like I said, soldiers don't get to choose the wars they fight, but more importantly I would say she lost any right to raise any defense by deserting.
    05-05-2013 10:23 PM
  19. androidluvr2's Avatar
    What the hell is wrong with someone having that many children? Don't people know the world is overpopulated? To top it all off, they are obese!

    For christ's sake, honey, close your freaking legs once in awhile. I am sure she got herself pregnant on purpose to try to garner sympathy.

    And learn to push a plate of food away from your mouth every now and then. Geez.

    I feel sorry for her children (of which there are too many).
    jusmebabe likes this.
    05-05-2013 10:27 PM
  20. Live2ride883's Avatar
    What the hell is wrong with someone having that many children? Don't people know the world is overpopulated? To top it all off, they are obese!

    For christ's sake, honey, close your freaking legs once in awhile. I am sure she got herself pregnant on purpose to try to garner sympathy.

    And learn to push a plate of food away from your mouth every now and then. Geez.

    I feel sorry for her children (of which there are too many).
    So instead of addressing the topic of this thread, which is her refusing deployment. You decide to throw personal attacks at them???
    05-05-2013 11:14 PM
  21. Jennifer Stough's Avatar
    What the hell is wrong with someone having that many children? Don't people know the world is overpopulated? To top it all off, they are obese!

    For christ's sake, honey, close your freaking legs once in awhile. I am sure she got herself pregnant on purpose to try to garner sympathy.

    And learn to push a plate of food away from your mouth every now and then. Geez.

    I feel sorry for her children (of which there are too many).
    I was one of three children, and had my mom not had a miscarriage, there would have been four of us. There is nothing wrong with having as many children as you would like as long as you can provide for them and teach them to be a functioning part of society.

    As for the obese and other hateful comments you have directed towards her and her family, I am not going to give you the pleasure of an argument, but say only this: Not every one is stick skinny, but every one is beautiful in their own way.

    Sent from my Verizon Droid DNA
    jdbii, Live2ride883 and msndrstood like this.
    05-05-2013 11:21 PM
  22. androidluvr2's Avatar
    There is nothing wrong with having as many children as you would like as long as you can provide for them and teach them to be a functioning part of society.
    Whoosh. That is the sound of the point I was making about overpopulation flying right over your head. Whoosh.

    As for the obese and other hateful comments you have directed towards her and her family, I am not going to give you the pleasure of an argument, but say only this: Not every one is stick skinny, but every one is beautiful in their own way.
    How large is the carbon footprint of someone who is obese? Clearly, carbon footprints are a concept that is way over your head.

    There is NOTHING beautiful about being a glutton. And there is NOTHING beautiful about not having any sensibility about what over consuming is doing to this earth.

    Please spare me your trite platitudes.
    Topgonzo likes this.
    05-05-2013 11:36 PM
  23. androidluvr2's Avatar
    I was one of three children, and had my mom not had a miscarriage, there would have been four of us.
    So what? You say this like there is something noble about having sex and getting knocked up. There isn't dear.

    Any female, even the most repugnant, can find some guy to have sex with her and that is all it takes to be a mom.
    Topgonzo likes this.
    05-05-2013 11:38 PM
  24. Jennifer Stough's Avatar
    Any female, even the most repugnant, can find some guy to have sex with her and that is all it takes to be a mom.
    That is where you are completely wrong. That is all it takes to be a biological MOTHER, not all that it takes to be a mom. There is a big difference between being able to pop a child out, and being able to rear a child.

    Being overweight is not always contributed to gluttony. If you believe so, you are much less educated than you would like to think. A poor diet, with minimal exercise, and the wrong genetics can contribute to being overweight or "obese." I eat once a day, maybe twice if I'm lucky, I get little exercise, and my bmi states I am overweight/ at threat for obesity. I am 5'11 and weigh 220. Does that I mean I am not beautiful? You have the right to your beliefs, but I embrace my weight and my looks, and I don't need you to say I am beautiful for me to believe it. From the outside you would just believe that I'm fat. That I am gluttonous and unhealthy. You wouldn't know that I was on steroids until I was seven years old, or that I have been striving to loose weight since I was 15 years old. Who the hell are you to judge someone else based on how they look? You don't know their story or their struggle. It doesn't matter how beautiful you are on the outside when you're personality so obviously overshadows it. Your blatant negativity, flat, disrespectful connotations, and plain materialistic assumptions have removed all pleasure of continuing this conversation for me.

    Sent from my Verizon Droid DNA
    jdbii, Live2ride883 and msndrstood like this.
    05-05-2013 11:55 PM
  25. androidluvr2's Avatar
    That is where you are completely wrong. That is all it takes to be a biological MOTHER, not all that it takes to be a mom. There is a big difference between being able to pop a child out, and being able to rear a child.
    Yawn. You patting yourself on the back is BORING.

    my bmi states I am overweight/ at threat for obesity. I am 5'11 and weigh 220. Does that I mean I am not beautiful?
    You need to think less about whether or not you are perceived as beautiful and more about what is happening to this earth by people who over consume. However much you consume, if you are knocking on obesity's door, you are over consuming for your energy expenditures and can cut back.

    Clearly, you are more self-focused than I am. I can't relate to that sort of narcissism and yes, being overly concerned about yourself, your feelings, how you are perceived, etc. and not concerned enough about the bigger picture of how your life choices affect the earth and all the species who live on this earth is narcissism. Plain and simple.
    Topgonzo likes this.
    05-06-2013 12:02 AM
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