06-30-2014 01:17 AM
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  1. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    There examples of things which happened which the church has since corrected since they occurred. Forgiveness used to cost -
    the church did it in a way to raise money. However martin Luther discovered this, protested it and split of with his own denomination (Lutherans) but since the church corrected this error with the above.

    For the witches the church was the ones to burn and drown them.

    Doctrines like Guardium et spes is a good read once you get your head past church talk. They had a meeting, first meeting since Trent 300 years prior, to discuss common debated topics (9000 topics) and establish a common ground to which teachings were wrong etc. Hence reforms. Unfortunately every meeting roughly takes 100 years for its teachings to be incorporated. The last major one basically iced up the hate towards protestants etc. We should probably do the same with the lgbt community.

    Posted via the mystical forest creatures that power this Nexus 4.
    Ahh but what you're doing is mixing up what people chose to do in the name of God versus what God and the Bible actually said.

    Doctrine is decided by people that run a church (in this context "church" is in reference to a denomination), with the differences being the way they interpret the Bible. Divorce is a great example of how interpretation changes between different denominations. No, I'm not trying to have that discussion, just bringing up an example of why humans aren't perfect.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD
    06-30-2013 11:40 PM
  2. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    There examples of things which happened which the church has since corrected since they occurred. Forgiveness used to cost -
    the church did it in a way to raise money. However martin Luther discovered this, protested it and split of with his own denomination (Lutherans) but since the church corrected this error with the above.

    For the witches the church was the ones to burn and drown them.

    Doctrines like Guardium et spes is a good read once you get your head past church talk. They had a meeting, first meeting since Trent 300 years prior, to discuss common debated topics (9000 topics) and establish a common ground to which teachings were wrong etc. Hence reforms. Unfortunately every meeting roughly takes 100 years for its teachings to be incorporated. The last major one basically iced up the hate towards protestants etc. We should probably do the same with the lgbt community.

    Posted via the mystical forest creatures that power this Nexus 4.
    Seems to me like that church has improperly taught forgiveness. Before Christ came, it was through sacrifice and burnt offering. With Jesus's sacrifice, grace replaced the law and we are now under grace. Therefore, believe on christ and ask and you shall receive.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    06-30-2013 11:46 PM
  3. Fairclough's Avatar
    My examples are post Christ and before that was Jewish - so let's not say they were wrong. Jesus was a Jew. Any who can we get back on topic?

    Posted via the mystical forest creatures that power this Nexus 4.
    06-30-2013 11:53 PM
  4. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    I can keep going if you guys like, but the point I'm trying to make is that sometimes there really is no point in trying to convince the "other side" that they're wrong because it will literally not matter. Your argument will fall on deaf ears.

    Thinking someone is less intelligent, ignorant, close-minded, or whatever else is wrong no matter what side of any issue you find yourself on. Everyone can believe what they want, and feel however they want about what you choose to believe. That goes all ways, as I have seen people on all sides of the discussion in this thread act that way towards each other's beliefs.

    Having an intelligent discussion about it is ok, but honestly, some of the words that have been thrown around caused me to stop responding. I hope we can all get passed that and get back to the original point of this thread, which was a minority group getting one step closer to having the same rights as everyone else.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD
    gnr_2, Fairclough, jdbii and 1 others like this.
    06-30-2013 11:54 PM
  5. return_0's Avatar
    Tbh, I think nothing in this thread after the first 5 posts was on topic.

    Sent from my pure Google Nexus 4 using Android Central Forums
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    07-01-2013 12:07 AM
  6. Fairclough's Avatar
    Probably should of did poll

    Posted via the mystical forest creatures that power this Nexus 4.
    07-01-2013 12:11 AM
  7. badbrad17's Avatar
    Kevin I did study it. I did primary school to year 8 was reading it / minor interperation year 8 to 10 were interpretations and 11/12 was studying doctrine and relating them to society. In particularly how religion influences society. Only got 70% in it after scaling (against other subjects to make all subjects fair against each other). Note for this subject you could study any religion, my school did Catholicism and the work is marked by scholars of the religion you write on.

    I'll these questions to who views the church as infallible.

    Why has there been a 12 year old Pope - elected as a repayment to a family whom the church owed money to? Who sold his position when he was tired of being pope. Lost his papal. Who was eventually excommunicated.

    Why is there solid belief that we only eat fish on Fridays due to a pope being black mailed?

    Why were there two popes at once because the cardinals changed their mind saying they were intimidated by crowds wanting a non Italian pope? Which cause two Vatican cities.

    Posted via the mystical forest creatures that power this Nexus 4.
    The entire concept of a Pope is a man made thing. The Bible doesn't even speak of this person. It was a title made up by political circles based on Saint Peter. The Bible doesn't state anything about Pope's (or saint Peter for that matter) being infallible. Your teachings you received as a child are religiosity and not true Christianity.

    The Bible can be referenced in many original texts. Translations are just translations. Not some errors and omissions game played by people. In fact the old testament is by far the most perfectly preserved text in the history of the world. The Jewish scribes kept it perfectly documented. Plus many Jewish people memorized most of the books word for word before the age of 12.

    If you truly studied Christianity and were a born again believer as Jesus spoke of then I think your views of the Bible would be different. Maybe I have misjudged what you are saying but it doesn't sound to me that you ever were a true believer.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-01-2013 12:24 AM
  8. gnr_2's Avatar
    Tbh, I think nothing in this thread after the first 5 posts was on topic.

    Sent from my pure Google Nexus 4 using Android Central Forums
    Hey, I asked what Prop 8 was on Pg 9!

    Sent from the Superuser account on my newly flashed Sprint Galaxy Nexus with XenonHD
    return_0 and badbrad17 like this.
    07-01-2013 12:29 AM
  9. GadgetGator's Avatar
    The Bible is the inspired writings of God. He makes no mistakes.
    So there's supposed to be deformed babies and conjoined twins? For what purpose?

    Just as some of you take offense to people saying negative things about your beliefs on same sex marriage, those people with Christian beliefs could be taking offense to those beliefs being called absurd, illogical, etc.
    I can see that potential. However, my beliefs on same sex marriage are based on factual real life data and experiences, not just a leap of faith. But I tend to be an extremely logical person for the most part, so stories about talking snakes, animals and babies that needed to be drowned, people running around naked and then deciding it was shameful, and God needing to incestuously resort to a single family to propagate the world not just once, but TWICE (after the flood too), just don't add up. Might as well be reading Alice in Wonderland stories to me as they make about as much sense. I wouldn't mind people believing in such things, if they didn't impact my life in such negative ways. But the fact that they do, frustrates me. They don't just jump down the rabbit hole themselves, they take me and a large part of the world right along with them. I don't want anyone to believe my religious views, I just want to be left alone. Unfortunately, there are a great many people out there that don't want to leave it at that and want everyone to share the "joy" in their religion and make laws that effect everyone accordingly...religious and atheist alike.

    Read up on how they try to maintain accuracy. It really is a painstaking process. King James Version is widely considered to be the most literal to the original scripture, but seeing as how we don't speak in that style anymore more modern translations have started being used.
    Really? Hmmm...I will have to go back and do some more research as I have read many things that claim the King James Version was well....his version of events and his agenda and not accurate at all. Guess there are conflicting opinions on that.

    Tbh, I think nothing in this thread after the first 5 posts was on topic.
    That's not true at all.... I have updated this story repeatedly. Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.
    msndrstood and gnr_2 like this.
    07-01-2013 12:30 AM
  10. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    So there's supposed to be deformed babies and conjoined twins? For what purpose?



    I can see that potential. However, my beliefs on same sex marriage are based on factual real life data and experiences, not just a leap of faith. But I tend to be an extremely logical person for the most part, so stories about talking snakes, animals and babies that needed to be drowned, people running around naked and then deciding it was shameful, and God needing to incestuously resort to a single family to propagate the world not just once, but TWICE (after the flood too), just don't add up. Might as well be reading Alice in Wonderland stories to me as they make about as much sense. I wouldn't mind people believing in such things, if they didn't impact my life in such negative ways. But the fact that they do, frustrates me. They don't just jump down the rabbit hole themselves, they take me and a large part of the world right along with them. I don't want anyone to believe my religious views, I just want to be left alone. Unfortunately, there are a great many people out there that don't want to leave it at that and want everyone to share the "joy" in their religion and make laws that effect everyone accordingly...religious and atheist alike.



    Really? Hmmm...I will have to go back and do some more research as I have read many things that claim the King James Version was well....his version of events and his agenda and not accurate at all. Guess there are conflicting opinions on that.



    That's not true at all.... I have updated this story repeatedly. Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.
    The same way their beliefs affect your life, some of them feel that your choices/beliefs affect theirs. Notice, I didn't say that they actually do, but that they BELIEVE they do. Whether or not they actually affect their lives I can't say, since that wouldn't apply to me.
    07-01-2013 12:43 AM
  11. AngelArs's Avatar
    I don't give a damn who marries who as long as both consent. It's not my business. I may have an opinion, but do I really care? Never. I want people to be happy.
    Well stated NothingIsTrue. I never did understand why the people who are whining against this care about someone else's marriage. So who cares if two gay people get married as long as they love each other? And how exactly does a gay couples marriage effect a straight couples marriage? The argument against gay marriage is nonsensical, the same as slavery and not letting women vote was nonsensical. Oh and last time I looked marriage isn't a churches decision, it's a persons decision. Seriously, what is this, the 1800's? Everyone in this incredibly great country has the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Everyone. Not just some people.
    07-01-2013 12:56 AM
  12. Aquila's Avatar
    a minority group getting one step closer to having the same rights as everyone else.
    This part is great. The issue we seem to be having is that some people want to use their "faith" to justify their hatred of this step forward. A step forward which is only necessary because of the political control wielded by propagators of their mythology. While I would love to separate the issues, the clear threat posed to intelligent dialogue by fundamentalist dogma. It is an error to provide moral and intellectual equivalency to the accuracy and reason applied to all arguments regardless of nature or content. I do agree we should respect the beliefs of everyone, so long as they do not infringe upon those of others. Hence the issue with religion. It is used as a tool of oppression.

    There needs to be a vast distinction between faith and religion and the two are not necessarily related in any way. The real danger is religion and the undue reverence people's opinions on these matters are given, relative to their opinions on flavors of ice cream or materials used in a privacy fence. As a society, questioning this subject allows an automatic "foul" call, regardless of how polite such questioning may be done and the strength of the arguments for and against either side. This creates incredibly ridiculous arguments about whether or not people should be treated equally, whether or not God or physics control the universe, whether or not Ra or carbon emissions are increasing or decreasing global temperatures. Would you take a senator seriously if they based their legislation and personal habits, that is required by law to exclude the considerations of any religion, on the Isle' Druid goddess of the mists?

    I have studied several versions of the bible, as well as what seems like a mountain of literature about the surrounding issues, by believers, philosophers, as well as some of the world's foremost experts on the subject of religion, such as Dawkins and Hitchens, though admittedly their personal beliefs are very anti-religion and their base expertise is in scientific works, there are few who know more about religion as a moral and philosophical concept. If you have not read, "The God Delusion", it is a must read. It articulates in a way I never could exactly why we should be leery of power resting in the hands of people that are militantly proud of their willful ignorance. I do not say that because they are stupid, I say that because they have facts available to them and choose to ignore them because it disagrees with what they want to be true. Polls have actually confirmed that a majority of people in the United States will even admit to doing so consciously.

    If you think about it, while we're all agnostic, we're all actually atheists to on all of the thousands of gods on earth except one or two, and atheists relative to the specific characteristics of thousands of denominations of each of those thousands of religions. You may believe in Yahweh, but not the divinity of Jesus or believe in both, but that their teachings are actually superseded by newer texts, such as the Book of Mormon or the rest of the Quran. Presumably we're all atheists for the entire pantheon of Viking, Greek, Roman, Hindu and Sumerian gods. What makes the 7th day Adventist interpretation correct while the other 99% of the earth's current population is incorrect? At what age did you choose which specific denomination had the facts correct?

    The argument is not about whether or not God is (or the gods, whatever) real or not or what people should choose to believe in their private lives about how those philosophical questions lead them to actions in their private lives. Obviously we'd prefer they use facts and not tall tales used by ancient bronze aged politicians who in each and every question about the universe that they didn't know the answer to, turned to magic... but if you think the Merovingian monarchies really were descendants of Jesus and his wife Mary of the Faeries, maybe some scientific education would be worthwhile. The argument is about the need to prevent anyone and everyone from wielding God against the rights of citizens, regardless of whether they agree with your beliefs or not. Especially about something as trivial as religion.

    It's obvious logically that the presumption that God exists cannot be used as an argument for the existence of God and especially for the nature of God; just as the Bible or Quran, etc. cannot be used as supporting evidence of their own validity. We don't assume Harry Potter is true, nor the Illiad. Though there are real places involved in each, that can be verified scientifically... most of us assume these stories to be fiction. It shouldn't be hard to believe that with the millions of different interpretations of "faith" in the world, that there are people who differ in their interpretation than yours and that you literally have no way of knowing which of yours is actually the more accurate without doing research and testing. At best they're both equally wrong, given that they're both absent a comprehensive manual of the universe, humanity, psychology, sociology, biology, physics, etc. All of these were written in the knowledge of the era at the time of their writings. We KNOW more now and could rewrite it now, and 4000 years from now ... it'd still be incorrect on some issues, incomplete on others and laughed at by society in that time.

    Believe in God, love God, pray if you like... but throw away the man-made writings about the subject entirely... if it's really about Faith, study the universe in all of it's actual wonder and let your heart guide you to morality... not fear of an imaginary construct like Gehenna or merely for the hope of reward in another dimension. You're not a child. Be a good person because you enjoy it or because you have integrity and you know it's the right thing to do. And certainly don't use Zeus or Baal or Svarasvati as an excuse to hurt people and call it good or well done. We're all smarter than that.

    If God ever did tell us what was true, we misunderstood. Guess our brains suck. It may take some education and critical thinking to figure it out, absent the ability to directly ask for a video of the initial presentation.

    As for this specific legislation.. it's a step, but there need to be many more steps and quickly. We have a long way to go in a world where we're still apparently looking for reasons to segregate ourselves from our neighbors.
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    07-01-2013 01:04 AM
  13. AngelArs's Avatar
    As a society, questioning this subject allows an automatic "foul" call, regardless of how polite such questioning may be done and the strength of the arguments for and against either side. This creates incredibly ridiculous arguments about whether or not people should be treated equally, whether or not God or physics control the universe, whether or not Ra or carbon emissions are increasing or decreasing global temperatures.
    I agree 100%. Reminds me of Pavlov's dog.

    Guess our brains suck.
    Certainly those with the God gene can feel that way.
    07-01-2013 01:26 AM
  14. GadgetGator's Avatar
    The same way their beliefs affect your life, some of them feel that your choices/beliefs affect theirs. Notice, I didn't say that they actually do, but that they BELIEVE they do. Whether or not they actually affect their lives I can't say, since that wouldn't apply to me.
    Oh believe me, I have been dealing with this issue for over three decades of adult life. I am WELL aware that they believe equal rights for others somehow affects their lives, but they have never been able to tell me how or explain why in a non-theological society why a particular religion should be enshrined into law in a country that says all have the same rights, freedom and ability to pursue happiness. All I ever get is the sound of crickets. Probably because there is no rational basis. There certainly wasn't one presented in court during the Prop 8 case.
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    07-01-2013 02:09 AM
  15. Aquila's Avatar
    Oh believe me, I have been dealing with this issue for over three decades of adult life. I am WELL aware that they believe equal rights for others somehow affects their lives, but they have never been able to tell me how or explain why in a non-theological society why a particular religion should be enshrined into law in a country that says all have the same rights, freedom and ability to pursue happiness. All I ever get is the sound of crickets. Probably because there is no rational basis. There certainly wasn't one presented in court during the Prop 8 case.
    What is any valid reason for certain people to be singled out and treated differently?
    msndrstood likes this.
    07-01-2013 02:12 AM
  16. AngelArs's Avatar
    Probably because there is no rational basis.
    BINGO! We have a winner....
    Aquila, msndrstood and TylerLucas like this.
    07-01-2013 02:18 AM
  17. badbrad17's Avatar
    This part is great. The issue we seem to be having is that some people want to use their "faith" to justify their hatred of this step forward. A step forward which is only necessary because of the political control wielded by propagators of their mythology. While I would love to separate the issues, the clear threat posed to intelligent dialogue by fundamentalist dogma. It is an error to provide moral and intellectual equivalency to the accuracy and reason applied to all arguments regardless of nature or content. I do agree we should respect the beliefs of everyone, so long as they do not infringe upon those of others. Hence the issue with religion. It is used as a tool of oppression.

    There needs to be a vast distinction between faith and religion and the two are not necessarily related in any way. The real danger is religion and the undue reverence people's opinions on these matters are given, relative to their opinions on flavors of ice cream or materials used in a privacy fence. As a society, questioning this subject allows an automatic "foul" call, regardless of how polite such questioning may be done and the strength of the arguments for and against either side. This creates incredibly ridiculous arguments about whether or not people should be treated equally, whether or not God or physics control the universe, whether or not Ra or carbon emissions are increasing or decreasing global temperatures. Would you take a senator seriously if they based their legislation and personal habits, that is required by law to exclude the considerations of any religion, on the Isle' Druid goddess of the mists?

    I have studied several versions of the bible, as well as what seems like a mountain of literature about the surrounding issues, by believers, philosophers, as well as some of the world's foremost experts on the subject of religion, such as Dawkins and Hitchens, though admittedly their personal beliefs are very anti-religion and their base expertise is in scientific works, there are few who know more about religion as a moral and philosophical concept. If you have not read, "The God Delusion", it is a must read. It articulates in a way I never could exactly why we should be leery of power resting in the hands of people that are militantly proud of their willful ignorance. I do not say that because they are stupid, I say that because they have facts available to them and choose to ignore them because it disagrees with what they want to be true. Polls have actually confirmed that a majority of people in the United States will even admit to doing so consciously.

    If you think about it, while we're all agnostic, we're all actually atheists to on all of the thousands of gods on earth except one or two, and atheists relative to the specific characteristics of thousands of denominations of each of those thousands of religions. You may believe in Yahweh, but not the divinity of Jesus or believe in both, but that their teachings are actually superseded by newer texts, such as the Book of Mormon or the rest of the Quran. Presumably we're all atheists for the entire pantheon of Viking, Greek, Roman, Hindu and Sumerian gods. What makes the 7th day Adventist interpretation correct while the other 99% of the earth's current population is incorrect? At what age did you choose which specific denomination had the facts correct?

    The argument is not about whether or not God is (or the gods, whatever) real or not or what people should choose to believe in their private lives about how those philosophical questions lead them to actions in their private lives. Obviously we'd prefer they use facts and not tall tales used by ancient bronze aged politicians who in each and every question about the universe that they didn't know the answer to, turned to magic... but if you think the Merovingian monarchies really were descendants of Jesus and his wife Mary of the Faeries, maybe some scientific education would be worthwhile. The argument is about the need to prevent anyone and everyone from wielding God against the rights of citizens, regardless of whether they agree with your beliefs or not. Especially about something as trivial as religion.

    It's obvious logically that the presumption that God exists cannot be used as an argument for the existence of God and especially for the nature of God; just as the Bible or Quran, etc. cannot be used as supporting evidence of their own validity. We don't assume Harry Potter is true, nor the Illiad. Though there are real places involved in each, that can be verified scientifically... most of us assume these stories to be fiction. It shouldn't be hard to believe that with the millions of different interpretations of "faith" in the world, that there are people who differ in their interpretation than yours and that you literally have no way of knowing which of yours is actually the more accurate without doing research and testing. At best they're both equally wrong, given that they're both absent a comprehensive manual of the universe, humanity, psychology, sociology, biology, physics, etc. All of these were written in the knowledge of the era at the time of their writings. We KNOW more now and could rewrite it now, and 4000 years from now ... it'd still be incorrect on some issues, incomplete on others and laughed at by society in that time.

    Believe in God, love God, pray if you like... but throw away the man-made writings about the subject entirely... if it's really about Faith, study the universe in all of it's actual wonder and let your heart guide you to morality... not fear of an imaginary construct like Gehenna or merely for the hope of reward in another dimension. You're not a child. Be a good person because you enjoy it or because you have integrity and you know it's the right thing to do. And certainly don't use Zeus or Baal or Svarasvati as an excuse to hurt people and call it good or well done. We're all smarter than that.

    If God ever did tell us what was true, we misunderstood. Guess our brains suck. It may take some education and critical thinking to figure it out, absent the ability to directly ask for a video of the initial presentation.

    As for this specific legislation.. it's a step, but there need to be many more steps and quickly. We have a long way to go in a world where we're still apparently looking for reasons to segregate ourselves from our neighbors.
    Quite a post.

    I would have to just say that you are communicating and preaching the religion of unbelief. So does Dawkins and others like him. The very thing many people complain about religious is similar to what you are doing about not believing. Your belief in there not being a deity or the bible is a religion unto itself.

    Almost every negative post regarding religion always brings in how people are flawed. This is not God or what is taught in the Bible. You have made 50 comments that require a response for each. To say things like Christians should use facts instead of tall tales is no different than how the "theory" of evolution is a tall tale.

    Regardless, I will forgo the time it would take for me to type all of these responses on my phone but instead offer the following passages from the Bible in order to ask how you feel these teachings are bad for us as a society? Is not equality stated in these passages? I believe it clearly is. The teachings of Jesus were never about hating our neighbors or discrimination through hate. The goal is always to bring about love and peace not only with each other but also in ourselves.

    Galatians 5
    For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: Love your neighbor as yourself.If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law

    Matthew 5: 3-10
    Blessed are the poor in spirit,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    Blessed are they who mourn,
    for they shall be comforted.

    Blessed are the meek,
    for they shall inherit the earth.

    Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
    for they shall be satisfied.

    Blessed are the merciful,
    for they shall obtain mercy.

    Blessed are the pure of heart,
    for they shall see God.

    Blessed are the peacemakers,
    for they shall be called children of God.

    Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

    Sent from my Nexus 4
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    07-01-2013 02:59 AM
  18. badbrad17's Avatar
    Oh believe me, I have been dealing with this issue for over three decades of adult life. I am WELL aware that they believe equal rights for others somehow affects their lives, but they have never been able to tell me how or explain why in a non-theological society why a particular religion should be enshrined into law in a country that says all have the same rights, freedom and ability to pursue happiness. All I ever get is the sound of crickets. Probably because there is no rational basis. There certainly wasn't one presented in court during the Prop 8 case.
    I believe the issue is not as much about equality as much as it is terminology. The gay and lesbian community want to be "married". Marriage is actually a religious creation that comes from God and is written in the Bible. So the people who are part of the religious community don't think that it is okay for them to partake in something that was clearly defined as being for a man and woman and are part of their religion.

    I have no problem with same sex couples living under the same roof and having similar rights that married couples have. But I do have a problem with the use of the word marriage as it is a misuse of the real reason the word was created.

    It's like bringing a football to a baseball game and complaining that all the baseball players aren't giving you your right to play. You have the right to play, just do it with your rules, your choices and on your field. Don't expect me to agree that you should be able to mess up my game in the name of human rights or equality because no matter how hard we try, it will never work.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-01-2013 03:11 AM
  19. Farish's Avatar
    I believe the issue is not as much about equality as much as it is terminology. The gay and lesbian community want to be "married". Marriage is actually a religious creation that comes from God and is written in the Bible. So the people who are part of the religious community don't think that it is okay for them to partake in something that was clearly defined as being for a man and woman and are part of their religion.

    I have no problem with same sex couples living under the same roof and having similar rights that married couples have. But I do have a problem with the use of the word marriage as it is a misuse of the real reason the word was created.

    It's like bringing a football to a baseball game and complaining that all the baseball players aren't giving you your right to play. You have the right to play, just do it with your rules, your choices and on your field. Don't expect me to agree that you should be able to mess up my game in the name of human rights or equality because no matter how hard we try, it will never work.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    The use of the word marriage is nothing more than excuse. *Using the term civil union creates a second class status of people.

    Problem is when growing up as one of those "Older Fellows" on these boards, LGBT community did ask for "Civil Unions" and equal rights. Then DOMA got passed in response of that.

    Many who oppose LGBT couples from getting married, didn't care about the term that was being used, it was about the fact they felt that you were normalizing LGBT relationships in society.

    Those same groups currently protest any show that shows any Gay Person or Gay relationship.

    Last Super Bowl, CBS was attacked because they used Neil Patrick Harris in a commercial and even though it had nothing to do with the material of the commercial, they were accused of pushing a gay agenda.

    They don't want LGBT people to exist out in the open in society. They want it hidden.
    msndrstood and GadgetGator like this.
    07-01-2013 06:47 AM
  20. pappy53's Avatar
    Yes it does make sense, but by saying interpretations are wrong on the human end as his inspiration is perfect could also suggest that those who wrote the bible interoperated his inspiration wrongly thus the bible (or known to some basic instructions before leaving earth) could be wrong due to false interpretations similar my previous examples? Which lead to horrific things.

    One bible error if memory serves me correct is that the earth was made 6000
    years ago which was a human error by a false printing. A Christan scientist tried calculating the age by things shown In the bible, calculated 6000 at the time and scribbled it into the book. As back in the time bibles were hand written it for copied out over and over again into multiple editions. Hence why some bibles have that figure. You would think every year that number would get larger

    Posted via the mystical forest creatures that power this Nexus 4.
    I would say that 6000 years is probably a good estimate, going by timelines in the Bible.
    07-01-2013 07:23 AM
  21. Jerry Hildenbrand's Avatar

    It's like bringing a football to a baseball game and complaining that all the baseball players aren't giving you your right to play. You have the right to play, just do it with your rules, your choices and on your field. Don't expect me to agree that you should be able to mess up my game in the name of human rights or equality because no matter how hard we try, it will never work.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    There is so much wrong here. It's not just your game. It's mine, too. I think it would be fabulous if it had even more footballs.

    Posted via Android Central App
    07-01-2013 07:51 AM
  22. The Hustleman's Avatar
    You don't like that DOMA is gone? So you actually WANT me to be a second class citizen? You WANT people like Edith Windsor to pay $360,000 more in taxes then a straight widow?
    I never said anything like that.

    I'm merely against same sex marriage.

    Marriage is supposed to be for a man and a woman, period.

    If someone is gay so be it, give them their rights, but not in the form of marriage

    Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
    Live2ride883 and badbrad17 like this.
    07-01-2013 08:35 AM
  23. The Hustleman's Avatar
    I believe the issue is not as much about equality as much as it is terminology. The gay and lesbian community want to be "married". Marriage is actually a religious creation that comes from God and is written in the Bible. So the people who are part of the religious community don't think that it is okay for them to partake in something that was clearly defined as being for a man and woman and are part of their religion.

    I have no problem with same sex couples living under the same roof and having similar rights that married couples have. But I do have a problem with the use of the word marriage as it is a misuse of the real reason the word was created.

    It's like bringing a football to a baseball game and complaining that all the baseball players aren't giving you your right to play. You have the right to play, just do it with your rules, your choices and on your field. Don't expect me to agree that you should be able to mess up my game in the name of human rights or equality because no matter how hard we try, it will never work.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    This is the best, most intelligently written post in this whole thread.

    No one wants to discriminate against gays, but what they have definitely wouldn't be called marriage.

    Honestly there should be a separation of church and state so I don't think the government should even be involved in marriages.

    Everyone in the eyes of the government (gay or straight) should have a civil union with the same legal benefits as marriage currently is and get rid of the marriage term from government regardless of sexuality.

    Let the churches handle marriages, not government.

    That way the gays get the benefits everyone else gets and there's no issue.

    My wife and I would have a "civil union" in the eyes of the government as would Adam and Steve. No discrimination there, win - win situation.

    Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
    badbrad17 likes this.
    07-01-2013 08:41 AM
  24. llamabreath's Avatar
    Wow, everybody -
    Hustleman is obviously not white, he's a minority and he's against gay marriage!

    Isn't that making your heads explode?

    Sent from Hotlanta via New Yawk
    badbrad17 likes this.
    07-01-2013 08:52 AM
  25. msndrstood's Avatar
    This part is great. The issue we seem to be having is that some people want to use their "faith" to justify their hatred of this step forward. A step forward which is only necessary because of the political control wielded by propagators of their mythology. While I would love to separate the issues, the clear threat posed to intelligent dialogue by fundamentalist dogma. It is an error to provide moral and intellectual equivalency to the accuracy and reason applied to all arguments regardless of nature or content. I do agree we should respect the beliefs of everyone, so long as they do not infringe upon those of others. Hence the issue with religion. It is used as a tool of oppression.

    There needs to be a vast distinction between faith and religion and the two are not necessarily related in any way. The real danger is religion and the undue reverence people's opinions on these matters are given, relative to their opinions on flavors of ice cream or materials used in a privacy fence. As a society, questioning this subject allows an automatic "foul" call, regardless of how polite such questioning may be done and the strength of the arguments for and against either side. This creates incredibly ridiculous arguments about whether or not people should be treated equally, whether or not God or physics control the universe, whether or not Ra or carbon emissions are increasing or decreasing global temperatures. Would you take a senator seriously if they based their legislation and personal habits, that is required by law to exclude the considerations of any religion, on the Isle' Druid goddess of the mists?

    I have studied several versions of the bible, as well as what seems like a mountain of literature about the surrounding issues, by believers, philosophers, as well as some of the world's foremost experts on the subject of religion, such as Dawkins and Hitchens, though admittedly their personal beliefs are very anti-religion and their base expertise is in scientific works, there are few who know more about religion as a moral and philosophical concept. If you have not read, "The God Delusion", it is a must read. It articulates in a way I never could exactly why we should be leery of power resting in the hands of people that are militantly proud of their willful ignorance. I do not say that because they are stupid, I say that because they have facts available to them and choose to ignore them because it disagrees with what they want to be true. Polls have actually confirmed that a majority of people in the United States will even admit to doing so consciously.

    If you think about it, while we're all agnostic, we're all actually atheists to on all of the thousands of gods on earth except one or two, and atheists relative to the specific characteristics of thousands of denominations of each of those thousands of religions. You may believe in Yahweh, but not the divinity of Jesus or believe in both, but that their teachings are actually superseded by newer texts, such as the Book of Mormon or the rest of the Quran. Presumably we're all atheists for the entire pantheon of Viking, Greek, Roman, Hindu and Sumerian gods. What makes the 7th day Adventist interpretation correct while the other 99% of the earth's current population is incorrect? At what age did you choose which specific denomination had the facts correct?

    The argument is not about whether or not God is (or the gods, whatever) real or not or what people should choose to believe in their private lives about how those philosophical questions lead them to actions in their private lives. Obviously we'd prefer they use facts and not tall tales used by ancient bronze aged politicians who in each and every question about the universe that they didn't know the answer to, turned to magic... but if you think the Merovingian monarchies really were descendants of Jesus and his wife Mary of the Faeries, maybe some scientific education would be worthwhile. The argument is about the need to prevent anyone and everyone from wielding God against the rights of citizens, regardless of whether they agree with your beliefs or not. Especially about something as trivial as religion.

    It's obvious logically that the presumption that God exists cannot be used as an argument for the existence of God and especially for the nature of God; just as the Bible or Quran, etc. cannot be used as supporting evidence of their own validity. We don't assume Harry Potter is true, nor the Illiad. Though there are real places involved in each, that can be verified scientifically... most of us assume these stories to be fiction. It shouldn't be hard to believe that with the millions of different interpretations of "faith" in the world, that there are people who differ in their interpretation than yours and that you literally have no way of knowing which of yours is actually the more accurate without doing research and testing. At best they're both equally wrong, given that they're both absent a comprehensive manual of the universe, humanity, psychology, sociology, biology, physics, etc. All of these were written in the knowledge of the era at the time of their writings. We KNOW more now and could rewrite it now, and 4000 years from now ... it'd still be incorrect on some issues, incomplete on others and laughed at by society in that time.

    Believe in God, love God, pray if you like... but throw away the man-made writings about the subject entirely... if it's really about Faith, study the universe in all of it's actual wonder and let your heart guide you to morality... not fear of an imaginary construct like Gehenna or merely for the hope of reward in another dimension. You're not a child. Be a good person because you enjoy it or because you have integrity and you know it's the right thing to do. And certainly don't use Zeus or Baal or Svarasvati as an excuse to hurt people and call it good or well done. We're all smarter than that.

    If God ever did tell us what was true, we misunderstood. Guess our brains suck. It may take some education and critical thinking to figure it out, absent the ability to directly ask for a video of the initial presentation.

    As for this specific legislation.. it's a step, but there need to be many more steps and quickly. We have a long way to go in a world where we're still apparently looking for reasons to segregate ourselves from our neighbors.
    Bravo. Well stated. Excellent. :thumbup:

    Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk 2
    Fairclough likes this.
    07-01-2013 08:59 AM
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